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  1. #1
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    Evidence List

    Ok... so I didn't know where to put this because it lists all of the evidence and doesn't necessarily fit into one of the other threads. So thought I would start a new thread.

    *I seen this being discussed on reddit, so again I brought it over here because I like discussing these things with you guys LOL (here is the link if anyone is interested in going over there to read https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurd...ation_on_rav4/ )


    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...dence-List.pdf

    on page 14
    05-205 8037 key copy for Toyota Rav
    05-195 8114 key


    a copy? what does that mean? this is not the RAV4 key that was found, because it has a different tag number. 05-179 7620 according to this picture http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...ibit-key-4.jpg

    I also don't see that tag number in the evidence list (I used "find" to look for 7620 and it didn't find it) So why is it not listed?

    also on page 14
    05-177 7613 manitowoc and green bay deputy badge

    huh? lol this is evidence, and where did it come from?

    page 7
    05-187 8320 stained rock from gravel mound
    05-187 8321 tissue from gravel mound


    do they mean suspected tissue? or was it tissue? and if was tissue... who's was it? shadowraiths... I believe this is the one that Ertl testified about and you posted about the other day. I still have not seen any other reports about it.

    Lots more in there, thought it would interesting to discuss some of it

  2. #2
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    I had to go out for a few hours, and just looked at this again, I wanted to see what else was logged around that time (assuming the 05-205 means something LOL)

    05-205 8037 key copy for Toyota Rav

    05-205 8038 two keys to storage #7 Rav 4 inside
    05-205 8039 two keys to storage #7 pontiac grand am inside

    I have been wondering how they got the RAV4 open. When Groffy testified, he said the drivers side door was open, and he reached over and unlocked the passenger door, and reached around to unlock the back doors.

    It has been driving me crazy trying to figure out how they unlocked the drivers side door and how they unlocked the rear door!!! The RAV4 had power locks (you can see it in the pictures of the drivers side door) that would unlock the rear door, or you would need a key. Because the battery was disconnected (and they say they didn't know this until the 8th when they tried to start the RAV4), the power locks would not have worked. So where did they get the key from to open the back door? (also in Groffy's testimony IIRC he said something about 'that's where the key went in' in reference to where the lock/handle was on the rear cargo door but he was there taking photo's on the 6th, 7th and 8th I believe)

    so here is my question.... or my thoughts. Did they use the VIN number to get a key "copy" made to open the drivers side door? and possibly the back cargo door? Where is this key now? Groffy never testifies to using a key to open the back cargo door (although he makes reference to where the key went in) to take pictures of the back cargo area, so how does that get open to take those pics and preliminary blood tests of where TH's blood is? If they tried the power locks, they would know that they didn't work... which would have lead to them checking the battery then, wouldn't it?

    And why isn't that RAV4 key that was found on the 8th in the evidence list? It should be evidence number 05-179 7620.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    <snip>
    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...dence-List.pdf
    on page 14 05-205 8037 key copy for Toyota Rav
    05-195 8114 key


    a copy? what does that mean? this is not the RAV4 key that was found, because it has a different tag number. 05-179 7620 according to this picture http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...ibit-key-4.jpg

    I also don't see that tag number in the evidence list (I used "find" to look for 7620 and it didn't find it) So why is it not listed?
    <snip>
    I too have wondered how the RAV4 was opened by DCI but I suspect that it was done easily, and was not a big deal. For example, I know that the police are adequately trained and provided with equipment to open all models of vehicles. From a personal experience, a friend and I were suddenly locked out from a 200x-model, economy, 4-door which "automatically" locked its doors under its own volition with the key still in the ignition while we visited a very remote family grave site on a late, cold, October evening. Thankfully an hour-and-a-half later a police officer arrived with his squad car's trunk filled with manuals, hand tools, and electronic devices. The final solution involved a simple slim jim. However if you google-search for "devices to unlock electronic automatic car doors" you'll discover how easy it is for technologically advanced thieves to access your car.

    But...the reason for my post: I can not make heads or tails from the Calumet County Sheriffs Department Evidence List pdf-file: the column heads really mean nothing to me. For example, item 8368 is oddly described and appears to be grouped with other items which were found. If one could presume that the items listed within the immediate surrounding items are all related to a search of the RAV4, either the person who listed 8368 is a complete idiot or the item 8368 is something other than a prophylactic condom!

    Further, either way you understand it, if something like that was found in the RAV4 why was that never presented as probative evidence: it goes directly to the heart of Avery's motive?

  4. #4
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    Hey Zool Nice to see you posting in these threads.... I've read some of your posts in the transcripts threads, very interesting and well thought out

    I understand that the locks could be easily unlocked with the right equipment, but the lack of mentioning it in the trial, makes me suspect. The first guy to go into the RAV4 and do presumptive testing and take pictures said the drivers side door was unlocked and he unlocked the other doors.... he never said how the rear door was unlocked, yet he took photographs, so it baffles me. They couldn't simply press the "unlock" button because the battery was disconnected, the automatic locks would not have worked. And if they did use other equipment.... why did they need a "key copy for RAV4".

    As for that evidence list..... ohhh -- emmm -- geeee, could they make it any more confusing??? LOL There doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind their numbers. I thought maybe the "05" "06" meant the year, but then there are some things that don't make sense then LOL As for 8368, I see it is listed after some items from the RAV4..... but by number, I see it grouped with things found in SA's trailer (I used the 06-42 in the first column and searched and they were all items from his trailer IMO)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    Hey Zool Nice to see you posting in these threads.... I've read some of your posts in the transcripts threads, very interesting and well thought out

    I understand that the locks could be easily unlocked with the right equipment, but the lack of mentioning it in the trial, makes me suspect. The first guy to go into the RAV4 and do presumptive testing and take pictures said the drivers side door was unlocked and he unlocked the other doors.... he never said how the rear door was unlocked, yet he took photographs, so it baffles me. They couldn't simply press the "unlock" button because the battery was disconnected, the automatic locks would not have worked. And if they did use other equipment.... why did they need a "key copy for RAV4".

    As for that evidence list..... ohhh -- emmm -- geeee, could they make it any more confusing??? LOL There doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind their numbers. I thought maybe the "05" "06" meant the year, but then there are some things that don't make sense then LOL As for 8368, I see it is listed after some items from the RAV4..... but by number, I see it grouped with things found in SA's trailer (I used the 06-42 in the first column and searched and they were all items from his trailer IMO)
    It was definitely found in his trailer. I saw it in a closeup of one the pictures. Didn't think much of it, just thought he was having safe sex with JS. It is either the night stand or desk. I'll try to find it again.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    I understand that the locks could be easily unlocked with the right equipment, but the lack of mentioning it in the trial, makes me suspect. The first guy to go into the RAV4 and do presumptive testing and take pictures said the drivers side door was unlocked and he unlocked the other doors.... he never said how the rear door was unlocked, yet he took photographs, so it baffles me. They couldn't simply press the "unlock" button because the battery was disconnected, the automatic locks would not have worked. And if they did use other equipment.... why did they need a "key copy for RAV4".
    SBM

    Counldn't a person reach back and unlock the rear doors manually?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    SBM

    Counldn't a person reach back and unlock the rear doors manually?
    yes, the rear driver and passenger doors can be, and that is what was testified too.... but not the rear cargo door. From all the pictures I have looked at, there is no inside door handle on it (not to mention the logistics of getting back there to open it that way without disturbing evidence lol), IMO a key would be needed to unlock it. The automatic unlock button could be used too.... but not if the battery was disconnected, which in testimony, they didn't "discover" that until the 8th (?) when they 'found' the RAV4 key at SA's and tried to start the vehicle.

    Anyway, it's just one of those little things that bugs me LOL and I do think it's odd that they have "key copy for RAV4" logged into evidence, but they don't have the actual RAV4 key that was found in SA's bedroom logged (you can see the tag number in the photographs, and it's not on the list)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    ...<snip>... The first guy to go into the RAV4 and do presumptive testing and take pictures said the drivers side door was unlocked and he unlocked the other doors.... he never said how the rear door was unlocked, yet he took photographs, so it baffles me....
    <snip>
    Hi Missy--

    I am not certain that I agree "....The first guy to go into the RAV4 and do presumptive testing and take pictures said the drivers side door was unlocked and he unlocked the other doors..."

    So far this is all that I have found:
    Day 10, ppg. 50-55 Testimony of Ronald Groffy, Forensic Imaging Specialist.

    beginning page 52

    Q. (by Att. Gahn) ~ Mr. Groffy, on November 6 of 2005, did you take photographs of a 1999 Toyota RAV4 that belonged to Teresa Halbach?

    A. Yes, I did.

    Q. And where did you take those photographs?

    A. That would have been at the Wisconsin State --

    (COURT interruption)

    A. -- That would have been at the Wisconsin State Crime Lab located in Madison, Wisconsin.

    Q. And also on November 8, 2005, did you take photographs of a blue 1993 Pontiac Grand Am that belonged to Steven Avery?

    A. That is correct, I did.

    Q. And what I'm going to ask now is for Mr. Fallon to bring up to you a pack of photographs. Mr. Groffy, if you would just quickly look through those photographs and tell me when you are finished looking at each one of them.

    A. I'm done, sir.

    Q. And did you take those photographs?

    A. Yes, I did.

    Q. And as you look at those photographs today, do they accurately portray the condition of both of those vehicles as you photographed them back in November of 2005?

    A. Yes, they do.

    Q. Mr. Groffy, on the back of each of those photographs, there's an exhibit number. They sequentially numbered Exhibit 289 through 305. I would like you to take the top photograph, which would be Exhibit 289. And I'm going to ask you to describe what that photograph is of. And please tell the jury that, and then we're going to show that -- well, here it is up on the screen. Describe what that photograph is, please.

    A. State's Exhibit 289 is the exterior view of the RAV4 from the driver's side of the vehicle.

    Q. And the photograph that you have in your hand, that's the same photograph that is up on this big screen?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. Sir, will you please take the next photograph and describe that. Tell us what the exhibit number is and describe it for the jury.

    A. That's State's Exhibit 290. That is the front interior portion of the RAV4 looking from the driver's side of the vehicle.

    Q. And is that photograph the same photograph that we have up on the big screen?

    A. Yes, it is.

    Q. And please continue.

    A. State's Exhibit 291 is a photograph of the interior of the RAV4 looking at part of the driver's side, I guess you would call it, instrument panel, near the ignition switch.

    Q. And is this photograph -- is that photograph represented up on the big screen?

    A. Yes, it is.

    Q. Mr. Groffy, I would like to ask you, is there anything about this photograph that you did any further processing of this vehicle with?

    A. Yes, the area that shows the red stain, I did a presumptive test on that area.

    Q. And what is a presumptive test?

    A. This is a presumptive test for the presence of blood. It's known as phenolphthalein.

    Q. Could you describe a little more for the jurors just how that stain appeared to you.

    A. It was a reddish color stain on the dash.

    Q. You did the presumptive test for blood?

    A. Yes, I did.
    I have not ascertained yet if Groffy clarifies this detail later, however as his testimony continues, I do not believe that he says in direct-examination that "the driver's side door was unlocked and that he unlocked the other doors". Do you have a reference for that?

    I will endeavor to see if Buting's cross-examination of Groffy brings this out.

    I do not believe the next witness, Mr. Stahlke's testimony, brings it out (see direct-examination ppg. Day 11, ppg. 198-206) so perhaps Ms Culhane's testimony explains it?????

    If no one explains, then I will hazard the presumption that DCI acquired the copy key from Toyota using the vehicle identification number. A rather simple but expensive procedure. Yet your observation on the whole is an astute one which needs to be explained one way or the other. After all, who is to say that Wisc. DCI did not acquire the copy key prior to finding the relevant damaging key which convicted Avery?

  9. #9
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    sorry Zool... I should have referenced it. In cross of Groffy, Day 10 Page 64.

    Q. It was locked or unlocked?

    A. The driver's door was unlocked when I got there.

    Q. Okay. The other doors were locked?

    A. Yes, the other doors were locked.

    Q. And that would be actually four more doors, correct, including the rear?

    A. That's correct, four doors.

    Q. Now, if I understand, what you did was, by opening the driver's side door, you were able to sort of reach over and, with your gloves, unlock the front passenger side door first, right?

    A. That's correct, I did that.

    Q. And then from that location, that position on either side, front and passenger, you were able to easily reach around and unlock the rear driver and passenger side doors.

    A. That's correct, I unlocked those doors.

    Q. And then you were able to open all four of those doors, wide open, for taking pictures and what not?

    A. That is absolutely correct.


    You can continue on reading from there, but it is never clarified how that rear door was open although Buting says 4 more doors including the rear.... well that rear door doesn't just magically open from the inside. What I did gather is.... not all of those pictures were taken on the same day, and somewhere in one of these threads I actually figured out what pics were taken on what day. But I think it is fairly certain that they had that rear cargo door open on the 6th of November, at the latest the 7th. Why? because we know they did presumptive blood tests back there, the spatter on the inside door, TH's blood, etc.

  10. #10
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    Maybe they hooked the battery cable up to use the door lock switch. Or maybe the Rav4 has an inside manual door lock (no handle though) on the rear door like my Explorer has. JMO


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCityAccountant View Post
    It was definitely found in his trailer. I saw it in a closeup of one the pictures. Didn't think much of it, just thought he was having safe sex with JS. It is either the night stand or desk. I'll try to find it again.
    Ok, here is the photo. At least that is what I thought it was.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    Maybe they hooked the battery cable up to use the door lock switch. Or maybe the Rav4 has an inside manual door lock (no handle though) on the rear door like my Explorer has. JMO
    They didn't know about the battery until the 8th when they tried the RAV4 key (per testimony... I think Culhane) The only way to unlock the door according the RAV4 manual is the automatic door locks, or the key. From all the pictures I have seen, I do not see a manual lock.... I have looked for evidence photo's and if you google RAV4 1999 and look at interior pictures.... there is no manual lock.

    IMO even if there was a lock or a handle on the rear door, I don't know how they would have been able to reach it and not squish the light cover that was holding the back seats up anyway.

    ETA:
    This photo tells me she had automatic locks:
    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...-RAV4-door.jpg

    This photo is of the rear door.... but it isn't the greatest because you can't see the top very well.
    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...Cargo-Door.jpg
    Last edited by missy1974; 03-20-2016 at 07:53 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    They didn't know about the battery until the 8th when they tried the RAV4 key (per testimony... I think Culhane) The only way to unlock the door according the RAV4 manual is the automatic door locks, or the key. From all the pictures I have seen, I do not see a manual lock.... I have looked for evidence photo's and if you google RAV4 1999 and look at interior pictures.... there is no manual lock.

    IMO even if there was a lock or a handle on the rear door, I don't know how they would have been able to reach it and not squish the light cover that was holding the back seats up anyway.
    Maybe someone hooked the battery cable up temporarily to unlock the rear door, then disconnected it and didn't say anything about doing it. JMO.

  14. #14
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    I went looking for testimony on the battery....

    Nick Stahlke page 230 day 11

    Q. And what did you do to obtain the odometer reading?

    A. Well, looking at the instrument panel, we couldn't determine what the odometer reading was,since there appeared to have been a dead battery.

    Q. And what -- Did you check any further as to whether there was a dead battery?

    A. Yes. We thought we needed to charge the battery so we opened up the hood of the vehicle and discovered that the battery cables had been disconnected.
    So Stahlke discovered the battery was disconnected, not Culhane. But what this tells me is.... they had a key. If they needed the battery to be connected to get the odometer reading, they also needed the key to turn the the vehicle on to get the odometer reading. They are not specific on the dates, but this is during the time that they were getting swabs of the blood, fingerprints (he testifies that he is working simultaneously with Riddle who is the fingerprint guy) and examining the vehicle. (Stahlke testifies on Day 11 and 12) I have a few things to do, but will try to look later and see if I can find what days he examined the RAV4 for sure.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    They didn't know about the battery until the 8th when they tried the RAV4 key (per testimony... I think Culhane) The only way to unlock the door according the RAV4 manual is the automatic door locks, or the key. From all the pictures I have seen, I do not see a manual lock.... I have looked for evidence photo's and if you google RAV4 1999 and look at interior pictures.... there is no manual lock.

    IMO even if there was a lock or a handle on the rear door, I don't know how they would have been able to reach it and not squish the light cover that was holding the back seats up anyway.

    ETA:
    This photo tells me she had automatic locks:
    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...-RAV4-door.jpg

    This photo is of the rear door.... but it isn't the greatest because you can't see the top very well.
    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...Cargo-Door.jpg
    I have a Toyota 4 Runner and you can roll down the window to the back door from the driver's seat.

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