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  1. #1
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    Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #15

    Please continue discussion here until the trial resumes Tuesday, May 24 (after the long weekend)

    Special note to any Websleuths members who may attend court:

    Whatever you hear in the courtroom that is being discussed outside the presence of the jury is NOT to be brought to the threads.



    As always, please be respectful and remember:

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    Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

    Your Ignore List and You


    Last edited by sillybilly; 05-21-2016 at 01:11 AM.

  2. #2
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    Remembering Tim Bosma and waiting for Justice


    National Post



    By Molly Hayes



    TIM AND HIS DAUGHTER
    Photo courtesy of the Bosma family

  3. #3
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    Tim Bosma and his baby daughter
    Photo courtesy of the Bosma family


    Tim and Sharlene Bosma's wedding pic displayed at the memorial for Tim
    from: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/62...hter-to-court/
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
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    Did Sachak ask MS about his online search for 9mm ammunition, just days before his arrest? Not that it would have mattered much - MS would have either had no memory of doing it or accused Google of lying.

    ...a Google search from May 18, 2013, for "rounds for 9mm" was found on the iPad.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...ki-3-1.3535763

  5. #5
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    Bosma Murder Trial 05.20.16 - Day 53

    Quote Originally Posted by billandrew View Post
    My question is, why did MS deny referring to "the thing" when it's in an actual text message extracted from Meneses's phone, which he was using to communicate with Michalski at the time?
    Such a good point.

    With thanks for your great timeline, billandrew, the following has been copied from it.



    On May 11, 2013, via MM's phone, MS texted the following to AM:


    2:22 pmSmich (Meneses phone) texts Michalski: "Tell him were [sic] its at and ask him to bring it to me with the other thing."
    " ... in my mind I'm over at the Whistle Stop Cafe having a plate of fried green tomatoes."
    ~Fannie Flagg, Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe

  6. #6
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    Does this seem suspicious to anyone? I re-read it today. "He hasn't spoken to Michalski since May 2013. "We had come to an agreement related to this case and lies had been said" Hagerman says #Bosma Apr 06, 2016 (from htps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zxyo_MC4bf28IMfFvSuu5ETlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/pubhtml?gid=0&single=false#)

    I'm wondering about "we had come to an agreement related to this case"...Could it be they created the story they would tell?

    I just keep thinking someone knows more, but there is an anti-snitch or bro-code none will break--maybe so as not to incriminate themselves, but just wondering if he meant a corroboration of their story, or something else?

  7. #7
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    For example, do you forget or dismiss Marlena's testimony about the celebratory mood in the car?

    Was he protecting her?

    Do you ignore or minimize the sausage frying and fireside furniture texts sent by MS?

    Furniture, maybe a potential theft. Sausage I don't know.

    Do you dismiss AM's story about how Mark told him to get the thing from Hagerman?

    Hope Crown pushes this!

    Do you ignore what MS's mother told police about how when Millard was arrested, Smich was concerned he would never get his car?

    Maybe now that DM is in jail she realizes MS won't be getting the car. Could be that simple.

    Do you forget Daly's testimony about how MS was just fine that week until DM was arrested and his mood changed?

    Not sure, but do we believe BD completely?

    Do you ignore the fact that MS has no explanation for his disappeared SIM cards?

    Those are not needed, from my understanding.

    Do you think his total gun amnesia story is realistic?

    I think he is scared poopless. Google Krucifix14. DM past lawyer is his current lawyer, very strange.

    Do you take into account that this is about the only story he can tell to have any hope at all of getting off?

    Yes, I have. I don't want him to get off. But, I couldn't find him guilty. Yet.

    Does MS's testimony trump everything for you? And if so, how is that not an "emotional decision"?

    I have been following this since Tim went missing. It pops up on my FB memories. I have lived it's trial, like many of us, for months. I've sent prayers up during the most difficult testimonies. It's exhausting me. So, I hope that answers your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ABro View Post
    When you say you believe the MS story, do you put all the previous trial evidence out of your mind?

    For example, do you forget or dismiss Marlena's testimony about the celebratory mood in the car?

    Do you ignore or minimize the sausage frying and fireside furniture texts sent by MS?

    Do you dismiss AM's story about how Mark told him to get the thing from Hagerman?

    Do you ignore what MS's mother told police about how when Millard was arrested, Smich was concerned he would never get his car?

    Do you forget Daly's testimony about how MS was just fine that week until DM was arrested and his mood changed?

    Do you ignore the fact that MS has no explanation for his disappeared SIM cards?

    Do you think his total gun amnesia story is realistic?

    Do you take into account that this is about the only story he can tell to have any hope at all of getting off?

    Does MS's testimony trump everything for you? And if so, how is that not an "emotional decision"?
    Last edited by sillybilly; 05-21-2016 at 11:53 AM. Reason: answers in bold italic

  8. #8
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    My apologies, I have no idea how to bold my own thoughts.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claroon View Post
    Does this seem suspicious to anyone? I re-read it today. "He hasn't spoken to Michalski since May 2013. "We had come to an agreement related to this case and lies had been said" Hagerman says #Bosma Apr 06, 2016 (from htps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zxyo_MC4bf28IMfFvSuu5ETlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/pubhtml?gid=0&single=false#)

    I'm wondering about "we had come to an agreement related to this case"...Could it be they created the story they would tell?

    I just keep thinking someone knows more, but there is an anti-snitch or bro-code none will break--maybe so as not to incriminate themselves, but just wondering if he meant a corroboration of their story, or something else?
    I think the inconsistencies in MH's and AM's stories speak to the truthfulness of their testimony. It's when stories line up too perfectly that there's a problem.

    MH said AM told him Dellen would have wanted ithe toolbox to go to Smich. AM said he did what Smich wanted. Dellen didn't figure in the decision.

    Personally, I didn't think either guy was lying in court. I just think they were so panicked and shocked that it's hardly surprising they came out with different incompatible versions.

    MH also struck me as way more sophisticated than AM whereas AM IMO took more responsibility for his actions.

    Frankly, I think both these guys are done with missions forever. Being hauled in and out of court for years, as they may very well be, is not easy.
    Last edited by ABro; 05-21-2016 at 12:21 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmoeller View Post

    Yes, I have. I don't want him to get off. But, I couldn't find him guilty. Yet.

    Does MS's testimony trump everything for you? And if so, how is that not an "emotional decision"?
    I have been following this since Tim went missing. It pops up on my FB memories. I have lived it's trial, like many of us, for months. I've sent prayers up during the most difficult testimonies. It's exhausting me. So, I hope that answers your question.
    I've read your logical thinking. Just want to suggest it is not the MS you hear speak today that is being tried, it is the personality he was three years ago. I agree with ABro's points. I especially think they were both trying to get away with murder and only when the heat got on them did they go into panic mode. Had LE not gotten them, I no doubt believe MS and DM would have already committed more crimes by now. They had a plan to "build some empires."
    Last edited by Claroon; 05-21-2016 at 12:05 AM. Reason: format & typo


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABro View Post
    MH also struck me as way more sophisticated than AM whereas AM IMO took more responsibility for his actions.

    Frankly, I think both these guys are done with missions forever. Being hauled in and out of court for years, as they may very well be, is not easy.
    Rsbm
    Will these guys ever be charged for the "missions" /illegal activities they admitted to?


    All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise
    ~ Unless it's a link from MSM, all comments are JMO ~

  12. #12
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    I think both accused are guilty of murdering TB. They planned the truck theft together over a long time and had not been able to steal one by the time they went on the 1st test drive. Frustration and failure was getting to them both. I do think that IT got away only because they thought he'd pose a possible threat to them both. They were not going to let a solid opportunity pass again to get the diesel truck DM needed. On TB's test drive I believe that neither DM or MS were going to accept failure again. They went up TB's driveway with the full intention to take the truck and the owner to succeed in their mission at any cost, and I believe TB paid that cost with his life. I think he was doomed the moment he agreed to allow the later evening test drive. After that it was all systems go for both DM and MS.

    In texts to and from DM, MS and even AM you can see DM's desperation building and he was fully prepared, and preparing others for more risky business than any of them had done in the past. It was time to dangerously escalate things and if violence was necessary to get that truck, so be it. DM succeeded in recruiting MS to be his accomplice. I think AM likely wanted no part of the plan and opted out because I believe it possible that DM had let others know he was ready to take a truck by force if need be. All DM and MS needed was the right truck and the right owner in the right circumstances. They decided on May 6th that TB was the right match to carry out their plan. They didn't have time to delay. There was no plan B to come back later to take TB's truck. Once they left the driveway with TB there was no looking back.

    I believe that both DM and MS were armed and fully prepared and willing to use their weapons on the test drive with TB. Two men - fist to fist - with one victim could have easily overpowered that lone victim had TB put up any resistance and they knew it. They could have let TB live. They could have taken the truck and let TB out on a remote side road in the dead of night. They were cowards. They never planned to let TB leave alive. They took a gun or guns on that test drive because DM wanted a truck and wasn't going to keep scoping them out indefinitely. I think once he spoke to TB on the phone, DM determined that TB was a "nice guy" and that perception likely emboldened DM and MS in their plan. DM and MS thought that TB wouldn't put up a fight against two young and threatening guys while out alone on a test drive drive in his rural area on a Monday evening. I bet seeing SB in the driveway, and if TB had mentioned he just out his baby to bed, that DM and MS would be encouraged that they indeed chose a nice decent guy who had every reason to live and no reason to resist their plan. I believe they were right.

    I think TB was killed by both accused once they got to the Bobcat location, a location I believe was pre-planned and one that DM was familiar with. The reason they killed TB there is by that time they were quite close to the farm and the incinerator and a reasonable distance from TB's area. I think the plan was to order TB out of the truck at gunpoint to shoot him outside of the truck and transfer his body into the bed if the truck, but something interfered with that plan. DM or MS may have shot TB before TB could comply with their command. Whichever of the accused deviated from the plan to shoot TB outside of the truck, it doesn't matter. TB was dead. TB's phone was discarded almost as an afterthought in the ensuing aftermath, in those adrenaline rushing moments. The interior of TB's truck was then covered in blood, and the mad getaway by two madmen began and the clean up and cover up went into full swing. Together. Two monsters that created a living nightmare. Together. And the accused stayed together throughout that terrible night as they coldly continued on. Together at the farm they put TB's body into the Eliminator. Together they headed for the hangar where together they incinerated TB's body as the truck was getting stripped and being prepared for SS to do his thing with the VIN and a repaint job would soon be in the works. The only f-up of their plan was TB being shot inside the truck. All in all though, the next morning they were each celebrating mission success and thinking they had pulled off a brilliant crime. Perhaps I should say another brilliant crime when I think of LB. Neither DM or MS expected TB to be making headlines at all, let alone in the immediate days after he went missing. LB had, by May 2013, been missing for almost a year without much public interest in finding her after all. I believe that DM and MS thought they got away with the crime of the century - perhaps twice - no reasonable doubt in my mind. They thought they were the untouchables. They were deluded.

    DM and MS by their own intentions, words and actions before, during and after TB was killed, convicted themselves. No matter how bizarre and unbelievable each of their stories are as they each get their versions out to the jury, I do trust that the jury will see that the only thing that makes any sense, given the totality of the evidence in the context of the big picture, is that both DM and MS were compatible partners, each with a need - one for a diesel Dodge Ram truck - the other for a classic Cadillac - and as difficult as that it is for the average person to comprehend or accept, the truth is that they both planned and equally participated in the crime. They should be held equally responsible for TB's murder. The alternative fictional theory penned by DM in his letters to CN or communicated for him through his lawyers, or the other creative twisting of the truth by the rap lyricist MS are not convincing. Thankfully these two accused turned against one another because that fact did provide a good glimpse into their characters and credibility, but for me, the Crown's version of events is convincing and once they sum it all up, I am hoping the jury will be convinced too.

    All MOO. All of the above is my own opinion and speculation.
    “Dare to think for yourself.” - Voltaire -}{- “All cruelty springs from weakness.” – Seneca

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cansleuther View Post
    Did Sachak ask MS about his online search for 9mm ammunition, just days before his arrest? Not that it would have mattered much - MS would have either had no memory of doing it or accused Google of lying.



    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...ki-3-1.3535763
    To me this meant MS had no ammo for DMs gun and was checking what 9mm would fit in it to help it sell. It is quite plausible IMO

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmoeller View Post
    My apologies, I have no idea how to bold my own thoughts.
    If you are on a PC you can select the text you wish to BOLD click the upper case B button OR press ctrl B on your keyboard. Best of luck

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightii View Post
    I think both accused are guilty of murdering TB. They planned the truck theft together over a long time and had not been able to steal one by the time they went on the 1st test drive. Frustration and failure was getting to them both. I do think that IT got away only because they thought he'd pose a possible threat to them both. They were not going to let a solid opportunity pass again to get the diesel truck DM needed. On TB's test drive I believe that neither DM or MS were going to accept failure again. They went up TB's driveway with the full intention to take the truck and the owner to succeed in their mission at any cost, and I believe TB paid that cost with his life. I think he was doomed the moment he agreed to allow the later evening test drive. After that it was all systems go for both DM and MS.

    In texts to and from DM, MS and even AM you can see DM's desperation building and he was fully prepared, and preparing others for more risky business than any of them had done in the past. It was time to dangerously escalate things and if violence was necessary to get that truck, so be it. DM succeeded in recruiting MS to be his accomplice. I think AM likely wanted no part of the plan and opted out because I believe it possible that DM had let others know he was ready to take a truck by force if need be. All DM and MS needed was the right truck and the right owner in the right circumstances. They decided on May 6th that TB was the right match to carry out their plan. They didn't have time to delay. There was no plan B to come back later to take TB's truck. Once they left the driveway with TB there was no looking back.

    I believe that both DM and MS were armed and fully prepared and willing to use their weapons on the test drive with TB. Two men - fist to fist - with one victim could have easily overpowered that lone victim had TB put up any resistance and they knew it. They could have let TB live. They could have taken the truck and let TB out on a remote side road in the dead of night. They were cowards. They never planned to let TB leave alive. They took a gun or guns on that test drive because DM wanted a truck and wasn't going to keep scoping them out indefinitely. I think once he spoke to TB on the phone, DM determined that TB was a "nice guy" and that perception likely emboldened DM and MS in their plan. DM and MS thought that TB wouldn't put up a fight against two young and threatening guys while out alone on a test drive drive in his rural area on a Monday evening. I bet seeing SB in the driveway, and if TB had mentioned he just out his baby to bed, that DM and MS would be encouraged that they indeed chose a nice decent guy who had every reason to live and no reason to resist their plan. I believe they were right.

    I think TB was killed by both accused once they got to the Bobcat location, a location I believe was pre-planned and one that DM was familiar with. The reason they killed TB there is by that time they were quite close to the farm and the incinerator and a reasonable distance from TB's area. I think the plan was to order TB out of the truck at gunpoint to shoot him outside of the truck and transfer his body into the bed if the truck, but something interfered with that plan. DM or MS may have shot TB before TB could comply with their command. Whichever of the accused deviated from the plan to shoot TB outside of the truck, it doesn't matter. TB was dead. TB's phone was discarded almost as an afterthought in the ensuing aftermath, in those adrenaline rushing moments. The interior of TB's truck was then covered in blood, and the mad getaway by two madmen began and the clean up and cover up went into full swing. Together. Two monsters that created a living nightmare. Together. And the accused stayed together throughout that terrible night as they coldly continued on. Together at the farm they put TB's body into the Eliminator. Together they headed for the hangar where together they incinerated TB's body as the truck was getting stripped and being prepared for SS to do his thing with the VIN and a repaint job would soon be in the works. The only f-up of their plan was TB being shot inside the truck. All in all though, the next morning they were each celebrating mission success and thinking they had pulled off a brilliant crime. Perhaps I should say another brilliant crime when I think of LB. Neither DM or MS expected TB to be making headlines at all, let alone in the immediate days after he went missing. LB had, by May 2013, been missing for almost a year without much public interest in finding her after all. I believe that DM and MS thought they got away with the crime of the century - perhaps twice - no reasonable doubt in my mind. They thought they were the untouchables. They were deluded.

    DM and MS by their own intentions, words and actions before, during and after TB was killed, convicted themselves. No matter how bizarre and unbelievable each of their stories are as they each get their versions out to the jury, I do trust that the jury will see that the only thing that makes any sense, given the totality of the evidence in the context of the big picture, is that both DM and MS were compatible partners, each with a need - one for a diesel Dodge Ram truck - the other for a classic Cadillac - and as difficult as that it is for the average person to comprehend or accept, the truth is that they both planned and equally participated in the crime. They should be held equally responsible for TB's murder. The alternative fictional theory penned by DM in his letters to CN or communicated for him through his lawyers, or the other creative twisting of the truth by the rap lyricist MS are not convincing. Thankfully these two accused turned against one another because that fact did provide a good glimpse into their characters and credibility, but for me, the Crown's version of events is convincing and once they sum it all up, I am hoping the jury will be convinced too.

    All MOO. All of the above is my own opinion and speculation.
    Very well written. I concur with it ALL.

    I recall MS sent a photo of a necklace to MM saying "for your mother," I think more incentive was more promises of jewels, making of his rap album, a trip out west, and once they started to turn $100,000 a month, a share in it, perhaps a suite in the Riverside apartments. With MS having no other possibility of work on the table apart from selling drugs, all of this was alluring.

    So thank you brightii. I don't always read long posts, but did this one and it rings very true to me.

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