Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

Sillybilly · Feb 5, 2016

Please continue discussion here until the trial resumes with closing arguments beginning Wednesday, June 1.

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Sillybilly · Feb 5, 2016

:rose: Remembering Tim Bosma and waiting for Justice :rose:

National Post

By Molly Hayes

B821254669Z.1_20130514195432_000_GQ9VSLAR.2_Content.jpg

TIM AND HIS DAUGHTER
Photo courtesy of the Bosma family

Sillybilly · Feb 11, 2016

Tim Bosma and his baby daughter
Photo courtesy of the Bosma family

Tim and Sharlene Bosma's wedding pic displayed at the memorial for Tim
from: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6258681-clairmont-sharlene-bosma-brings-loving-laughter-to-court/

Coldpizza · May 26, 2016

Jury has now heard all the evidence
By Adam Carter, CBC News May 25, 2016

Mark Smich maintains prosecutor is wrong, says he wasn't present when Bosma shot

After a gruelling four months, the jury has heard the entirety of the evidence at the trial of two men accused of killing Hamilton man Tim Bosma.

The cross-examination of Mark Smich concluded Wednesday afternoon.

Smich's lawyer, Thomas Dungey, finished his re-examination with one question for his client.

"Did you kill Mr. Bosma?" Dungey asked.

"No, I did not," Smich said.

Prosecutor Craig Fraser ended his cross-examination on a very different note. He referred back to the testimony of Smich's girlfriend Marlena Meneses, who Smich has agreed was a good, honest person.

[...]

Here's what's next

Though the evidence is complete, the trial is not yet finished. All of the lawyers will now meet with Justice Andrew Goodman for a two-part "pre-charge conference" before closing arguments and Goodman's charge to the jury.

The lawyer's closing arguments to the jury will begin on Wednesday, June 1.

Earlier in the day, the Crown alleged that Bosma was shot in a field just minutes away from his home, and both Millard and Smich were in on the plan.

Fraser told the jury the Crown's theory is Bosma was shot in a field just around the corner from his rural home in Ancaster, Ont., shortly after leaving his house with Millard and Smich to take them on a test drive of a pickup truck he was trying to sell

ADAWG · May 26, 2016

The more and more I think about this case the more I think it was about a planned murder and the truck was just the icing on the cake. Even them showing their faces and being sketchy if they wanted to steal that truck later that night or the next day it could have been done no issue. Truck theft is so big in this area that the police would've taken a statement and even though so sketchy people were by the night before it would likely have been still chalked up to being on the reserve gutted and torched. That's what happens with the majority of truck thefts here.

I still don't grasp the scoping either. Why see if you like it? Steal it and then see if you do. If not chop it down sell its parts and buy one legitimately. These guys were involved in enough thefts and criminal activity to know that parts sell quick and chopped down more then an entire truck.

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CJPRINCESS · May 26, 2016

For those that are asking about the chip key. YES, TB'S truck had the chip key.

Katpaws · May 26, 2016

One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.

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Inspector_North · May 26, 2016

ADAWG said:
The more and more I think about this case the more I think it was about a planned murder and the truck was just the icing on the cake. Even them showing their faces and being sketchy if they wanted to steal that truck later that night or the next day it could have been done no issue. Truck theft is so big in this area that the police would've taken a statement and even though so sketchy people were by the night before it would likely have been still chalked up to being on the reserve gutted and torched. That's what happens with the majority of truck thefts here.

I still don't grasp the scoping either. Why see if you like it? Steal it and then see if you do. If not chop it down sell its parts and buy one legitimately. These guys were involved in enough thefts and criminal activity to know that parts sell quick and chopped down more then an entire truck.

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I agree it was planned.

As for you not grasping the scoping fictional story, it's because you are not an accused facing first degree who needs desperately to attempt a plausible story that removes you from the most severe of charges. A story the aligns with much of the evidence the accused had the privilege to sit through.

DM through his legal team never confirmed the test drive was just a scoping mission. And I still believe that the conversation DM had with AM about IT's 'mission' being a failure on the 5th shows it to be more.

MS's lifestyle and his relationship with DM when combined with DM's weird world, created the evil atmosphere for a partnership in premeditated murder. DM was the 'big' planner, the 'big' dreamer, and the 'big' untouchable that these minions were reluctant to 2nd guess. DM took innocent minions to be involved in theft missions, and he took MS, a minion with a lengthy criminal record to the next level, premeditated murder.

There is much more to this horror story, and once all charges still working their way through the courts is complete, it will be even that more difficult to grasp.

MOO

andreww · May 26, 2016

Katpaws said:
One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.

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Seriously? This is the same guy, just nicer clothes and a decent haircut. He just spent nine days on the stand lying his *advertiser censored* off, he's never showed any remorse whatsoever, and he is still uncooperative in helping the police find the gun. Smich is every bit as dangerous as Delon Millard, don't kid yourself.

andreww · May 26, 2016

Paraphrasing from yesterday...

Fraser: You met with Millard for 50 minutes, what did you talk about?

Smich: I don't remember

Fraser: You talked about hiding the guns and drugs!

Smich: Thats not true.

So how would Smich know that they didn't talk about the guns and drugs if he didn't remember the conversation? :thinking:

Tealgrove · May 26, 2016

Katpaws said:
One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.

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BBM

The point is that it doesn't matter who or what he seemingly is today. It's all about what he did 3 years ago. 3 years ago he and another person brutally murdered an innocent young father and then incinerated him. For these facts, he's going to prison for a long time.

ADAWG · May 26, 2016

andreww said:
Seriously? This is the same guy, just nicer clothes and a decent haircut. He just spent nine days on the stand lying his *advertiser censored* off, he's never showed any remorse whatsoever, and he is still uncooperative in helping the police find the gun. Smich is every bit as dangerous as Delon Millard, don't kid yourself.

Agreed the whole new image was put together by his lawyer. He lied a good amount and likely told some half truths. He was quick to dish the blame on everyone. Any evidence that was given to show his full intentions he lost his memory or said witnesses were wrong (7 - 8 witnesses. I can understand one witness, but this many aren't wrong.) He forget some of the most crucial info because he was scared and confused. Yet any small info that could put him in a better light he somehow remembered. I don't believe very much of his testimony was credible (maybe 10%.) The rest was around selective memory and to fit what the disclosure he was given. He is just your typical liar. Tell half truths, blame others for everything, quickly accuse everyone else of lying and attempt to play the poor me victim card. All the evidence has suggested the opposite that he was just as willing to do this as Millard. The only reason he has shown any reason for change is he got caught.

Katpaws · May 26, 2016

andreww said:
Seriously? This is the same guy, just nicer clothes and a decent haircut. He just spent nine days on the stand lying his *advertiser censored* off, he's never showed any remorse whatsoever, and he is still uncooperative in helping the police find the gun. Smich is every bit as dangerous as Delon Millard, don't kid yourself.

To an extent, I don't disagree, I can just see possibility in what he says and that gets under my skin even though I'm mostly convinced he knew what was up.

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Katpaws · May 26, 2016

Tealgrove said:
BBM

The point is that it doesn't matter who or what he seemingly is today. It's all about what he did 3 years ago. 3 years ago he and another person brutally murdered an innocent young father and then incinerated him. For these facts, he's going to prison for a long time.

Yes, you're right about the seeming part.

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Mscree · May 26, 2016

Katpaws said:
One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While I see what you are saying, I think of one thing if they didn't get caught would he still be out there living that life? My guess is yes. I feel like we find this crime so senseless and can't understand why they would kill over a truck that a lot of people are willing to except smichs story since it fits the some of the evidence. I do agree with you though if he really changed his life for the better he still wouldn't be trying to covering his butt. I know some witnesses lied, but that many. Not a chance

Dion · May 26, 2016

Katpaws said:
One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Before he got on the stand, Smich presented himself better than DM did, just by not reacting to DM, and not waving to friends, and appearing to take the court seriously.

However, as soon as he got on the stand, he lost any credibility - nothing but lies spouting from his mouth, along with lots of "can't remembers" "don't recalls" and especially tale of burying of his gun. Clearly remembers wrapping it in plastic bag and tape, remembers getting on his bike (with the gun) but doesn't know which direction he went, found himself in a forest somewhere, but doesn't know where, buried gun somewhere, but doesn't know where. Doesn't remember where he went after he left the forest (because that would mean he knew the direction of the forest).

100% guilty (of first degree murder) that's my verdict!

Katpaws · May 26, 2016

Mscree said:
While I see what you are saying, I think of one thing if they didn't get caught would he still be out there living that life? My guess is yes. I feel like we find this crime so senseless and can't understand why they would kill over a truck that a lot of people are willing to except smichs story since it fits the some of the evidence. I do agree with you though if he really changed his life for the better he still wouldn't be trying to covering his butt. I know some witnesses lied, but that many. Not a chance

A VERY good point. I think if he hadn't been caught, it's very likely he would still be living that life. Even if DM getting arrested "scared him", I see no reason to believe he might have turned a new leaf without rehabilitation of some kind.

Katpaws · May 26, 2016

Dion said:
Before he got on the stand, Smich presented himself better than DM did, just by not reacting to DM, and not waving to friends, and appearing to take the court seriously.

However, as soon as he got on the stand, he lost any credibility - nothing but lies spouting from his mouth, along with lots of "can't remembers" "don't recalls" and especially tale of burying of his gun. Clearly remembers wrapping it in plastic bag and tape, remembers getting on his bike (with the gun) but doesn't know which direction he went, found himself in a forest somewhere, but doesn't know where, buried gun somewhere, but doesn't know where. Doesn't remember where he went after he left the forest (because that would mean he knew the direction of the forest).

100% guilty (of first degree murder) that's my verdict!

The lack of recollection regarding the gun is the real sticking point for me. I wish he'd given them something more to go on, but the story that he was completely out of it when it happened is definitely plausible, which is what bugs me. It's very clear he was coached, and well, and those "I don't recalls" are a big part of it, because if there are things he only half-remembers, it's safer to say he doesn't recall rather than give the cross-examiner a chance to dig in on a "well, I seem to recall..." It's one thing to catch him in a lie, but it's quite another to trip someone up and make them look guilty just because they worded something awkwardly.

I won't feel dissatisfied at all if he's convicted, but I also won't blame the jury if they can't decide on a 1st degree conviction for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm mostly on board with his guilt, there's just a small part of me that's not 100% certain, and maybe that's just because I have the certainty I feel about DM to compare it to.

Arnie M · May 26, 2016

CJPRINCESS said:
For those that are asking about the chip key. YES, TB'S truck had the chip key.

Thanks .... and to add to that , TB's truck was more desirable because in the following years they started putting a lot of emissions crap on the engines.

ABro · May 26, 2016

Katpaws said:
The lack of recollection regarding the gun is the real sticking point for me. I wish he'd given them something more to go on, but the story that he was completely out of it when it happened is definitely plausible, which is what bugs me. It's very clear he was coached, and well, and those "I don't recalls" are a big part of it, because if there are things he only half-remembers, it's safer to say he doesn't recall rather than give the cross-examiner a chance to dig in on a "well, I seem to recall..." It's one thing to catch him in a lie, but it's quite another to trip someone up and make them look guilty just because they worded something awkwardly.

I won't feel dissatisfied at all if he's convicted, but I also won't blame the jury if they can't decide on a 1st degree conviction for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm mostly on board with his guilty, there's just a small part of me that's not 100% certain, and maybe that's just because I have the certainty I feel about DM to compare it to.

Once again, 100% certainty is not the standard for conviction. It's beyond reasonable doubt. The question to be posed is, given all the evidence taken together, is your doubt reasonable?

Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

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