Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

Defence and Crown closing arguments are now completed. Legal arguments will be taking place between Friday, June 3 through Thursday, June 9. Justice Goodman will begin his charge to the jury on Friday, June 10 and continue Monday, June 13.

Please continue discussion here until June 9, and we will open a daily thread on June 10 when Justice Goodman starts his instructions to the jury.

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Whatever you hear in the courtroom that is being discussed outside the presence of the jury is NOT to be brought to the threads.


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Tim Bosma and his baby daughter
Photo courtesy of the Bosma family


Tim and Sharlene Bosma's wedding pic displayed at the memorial for Tim
from: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6258681-clairmont-sharlene-bosma-brings-loving-laughter-to-court/

THXGuru said:

To those who believe there is some reasonable doubt on behalf of MS.

Let me remind you that:

-he has 6 or 7 priors before this murder charge

-he held a grade 10 education at the time of the murder

-he selectively did not remember certain things about the case

-he called out several witnesses and claimed they were lying

-he buried the murder weapon

-he can't remember where he buried the murder weapon

-he had a chance to go to the police

-he helped clean up and destroy evidence

-he was happy the next morning

The list goes on and on and on.....

He is guilty of 1st Degree murder. Do doubt.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder but I don't think any of those things are evidence in a first degree murder trial. Not seeing premeditation or forcible confinement in this any of these statement so we'll have to agree to disagree.

MS is only the more relatable of the two, because it appears he was motivated by greed (who knows what goes on inside DM's head). But, he wasn't just motivated by greed, he also also had a love of the gangster lifestyle and loved guns - he took pictures of them, he sang about using them. He had a gun, he had the ammo, he had been practising shooting - he was expecting someone at some time to get shot, and was getting ready for it, even looking forward to it.

Smich and Millard may have come from different directions and lifestyles, but both ended up in the same place with the same goals.

If the jury does not find both of them guilty of first degree murder, I will be extremely disappointed.

THXGuru wrote and color commentary by me:

-he has 6 or 7 priors before this murder charge- is not really a factor, some people never commit a crime and then commit murder, others commit crimes and clean up their lives

-he held a grade 10 education at the time of the murder--- lack of education may make your life harder and give rise to a life of crime but it does not have to as there are lots of less educated people who are on the straight and narrow

-he selectively did not remember certain things about the case-- I agree this is a big problem for him

-he called out several witnesses and claimed they were lying-- I think there are lots of liars in this group, lying was their bond

-he buried the murder weapon --- doesn't mean he used it, could be he was afraid

-he can't remember where he buried the murder weapon --- Another big Smich problem

-he had a chance to go to the police --One doesn't have to be guilty by virtue of not going to the police, he was already known by them-- he might have thought who would believe him (I don't but that is not important)

-he helped clean up and destroy evidence --Yep, a good indicator to me that he was part of the planning

-he was happy the next morning ---by one witness account, probably a good indicator but certainly not proof.



You may not doubt his guilt but there is lots that can be seen as circumstantial or not a solid linking action. It is probably best to hope that the jury is comprised of people who think like you. He doesn't need many who think he is not firmly linked to the case in order to be put on trial as an accessory. Either way, we will need to trust that the jury looked, analyzed and did what they thought was right.

So then...

I've been compelled to do a considerable amount of re-reading things I've read before (Crown's opening statement, timeline of events, texts, evidence & testimony presented, etc., articles - and a massive shout out to billandrew for his phenomenal work on the timeline) and re-thinking things I've already thought. I think more than a few of you will be happy to know, the fence is now gone. As in, LONG gone. Given the totality of evidence & testimony, I do now believe Smich is equally guilty of 1st degree murder as well as Millard.

Some random thoughts:

- I was never a Smich "supporter" and the term is rather insulting, honestly. I never supported him, I just never thought the Crown had enough solid evidence to really nail a 1st degree on him. I'm still not sure they do.

- Smich's testimony did have a ring of truth to it and it still does. I suppose that was entirely by TD's design. I suspect parts are true and parts are crafted around the evidence. This is what makes a great lie believable: just sprinkle in some truth here and there.

- For those wondering what it was that changed my mind: everything. All the evidence & testimony taken as a whole. Like they say "hindsight is 20/20". Yes, individual things can have multiple explanations but as a whole, a new picture emerges. I do think I was too focused on individual things and having never followed a court case before, just got sidetracked with that. Thank God I've never been called for jury duty. They'd all hate me by the end of the process.

- I still wish I could have been in the courtroom to see/hear things first hand. I've long suspected those there in person hearing what has not been reported during legal arguments have a much better perspective on this case than those of us relying solely on tweets and articles. I suppose when information starts coming out when deliberations begin, we might all be a little surprised at what we didn't know and what the jury doesn't know. it was mentioned here yesterday that with the LB case coming and both of these creeps charged in her case as well, some of what the jury wasn't allowed to hear maybe overlapped between Tim's case and her case? If that's true, we still won't know about that stuff until her case is over but I'm guessing there will be things that come out that explain why the Crown is so certain of 1st degree for both of them.

So yeah, there it is. FWIW.

Juballee said:

This is has been a sticking point for me for a long time too. If they were really just psychopaths, then they would have had no problem with going back and eliminating witnesses. Especially if leaving no witnesses alive was part of the plan, as the crown is asserting, leaving 2 good witnesses doesn't make sense.

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IMO they weren't expecting there to be 2 other people in the driveway when they arrived. But how do we know that the apparent mastermind DM hadn't made up his mind that returning to the house to eliminate the other witnesses would have to be done? Of course, they would only be able to do this after they had killed Mr. Bosma. That could very well have been on their mind if their plan to kill Mr. Bosma outside the truck had been followed. Maybe they realized that now with a bloody truck and blood all over themselves that returning to the house was riskier than just getting out the area. All MOO of course.

JMHO ...Mark smich has been accused of MURDER as we all know ...again JMHO ...I be remembering real quick where that gun was if I did not use it...If Dellen Killed Tim Bosma ...I would think it would have evidence all over it and show Mark did not kill him ...But again JMHO ...Typically it is like the CROWN said :" does it really matter BOTH of them were with TIM BOSMA that night which is clear....MS helped cover up evidence and did not go to the police with what occurred ...MS was involved from the start IMO as soon as we walked into the Bosma house with his hoody done to conceal part of his appearance.. IMO ...JMHO so they are BOTH GUILTY and should be locked away forever....again JMHO...robynhood!

robynhood said:

JMHO ...Mark smich has been accused of MURDER as we all know ...again JNHO ...I be remember real quick where that gun was if I did not use it...If Dellen Killed Tim Bosma ...I would think it would have evidence all over it and show Mark did not kill him ...But again JMHO ...Typically it is like the CROWN said :" does it really matter BOTH of them were with TIM BOSMA that night which is clear....MS helped cover up evidence and did not go to the police with what occurred ...JMHO so they are BOTH GUILTY and should be locked away forever....again JMHO...robynhood!

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Oh my goodness you've come out of hiding! Welcome back!

Juballee said:

I am seeing some contradictions in Leith's closing that don't help his point. He said earlier that Millard didn't hide his faces because he likes to take risks, but here he is saying his likes to take precautions.

They planned out out every detail, but not the details like bringing two people to the door to be seen only to drop one off 500m away to follow in another vehicle.

Or that they planned to do it at the farm but then realized that they had no power. They would have known the eliminator needed power and that the farm had none before that night. And apparently they had had about a week to prepare the generator and bring it to the farm but didn't. They were still left unprepared when it happened, which still makes me think it wasn't a part of the plan.

MS f'ed up, in my opinion. And in his too, I guess.

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i believe the crown is suggesting that the original plan was that the incineration was to be done at the farm. That's what the generator was for. IMO DM and MS were not expecting such a bloody mess - assuming the plan was to kill Mr. Bosma outside the truck and that plan went awry somehow - and so they had to move the incinerator to the hangar where there was enough lighting and water and hoses etc to clean it out. The crown is doing an excellent job of fitting together pieces that I had been wondering about. IMO

toom said:

This is a very convincing closing. 2x 1st degree after five minutes of deliberation.

I'm having a hard time imagining any credible doubt, by now. Though I'm sure the defenses will pull out some wild stories.

MOO.

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I can't see any reasonable jury having difficulty convicting DM in a matter of minutes. If there is going to be any sort of discussion or debate on a verdict it will involve MS. MOO

chaines said:

IMO they weren't expecting there to be 2 other people in the driveway when they arrived. But how do we know that the apparent mastermind DM hadn't made up his mind that returning to the house to eliminate the other witnesses would have to be done? Of course, they would only be able to do this after they had killed Mr. Bosma. That could very well have been on their mind if their plan to kill Mr. Bosma outside the truck had been followed. Maybe they realized that now with a bloody truck and blood all over themselves that returning to the house was riskier than just getting out the area. All MOO of course.

Click to expand...

If they had of gone back to the house to kill Sharlene and Wayne you seem to have forgotten that there was also a baby in that house. Thank god they never went back IMO.

Ontario Mom said:

So then...

I've been compelled to do a considerable amount of re-reading things I've read before (Crown's opening statement, timeline of events, texts, evidence & testimony presented, etc., articles - and a massive shout out to billandrew for his phenomenal work on the timeline) and re-thinking things I've already thought. I think more than a few of you will be happy to know, the fence is now gone. As in, LONG gone. Given the totality of evidence & testimony, I do now believe Smich is equally guilty of 1st degree murder as well as Millard.

Some random thoughts:

- I was never a Smich "supporter" and the term is rather insulting, honestly. I never supported him, I just never thought the Crown had enough solid evidence to really nail a 1st degree on him. I'm still not sure they do.

- Smich's testimony did have a ring of truth to it and it still does. I suppose that was entirely by TD's design. I suspect parts are true and parts are crafted around the evidence. This is what makes a great lie believable: just sprinkle in some truth here and there.

- For those wondering what it was that changed my mind: everything. All the evidence & testimony taken as a whole. Like they say "hindsight is 20/20". Yes, individual things can have multiple explanations but as a whole, a new picture emerges. I do think I was too focused on individual things and having never followed a court case before, just got sidetracked with that. Thank God I've never been called for jury duty. They'd all hate me by the end of the process.

- I still wish I could have been in the courtroom to see/hear things first hand. I've long suspected those there in person hearing what has not been reported during legal arguments have a much better perspective on this case than those of us relying solely on tweets and articles. I suppose when information starts coming out when deliberations begin, we might all be a little surprised at what we didn't know and what the jury doesn't know. it was mentioned here yesterday that with the LB case coming and both of these creeps charged in her case as well, some of what the jury wasn't allowed to hear maybe overlapped between Tim's case and her case? If that's true, we still won't know about that stuff until her case is over but I'm guessing there will be things that come out that explain why the Crown is so certain of 1st degree for both of them.

So yeah, there it is. FWIW.

Click to expand...

You looked at it, as a whole, and that's exactly what the crown asked the jury to do. Sure, every piece of evidence against both of them could have an explanation. But when there's so much that needs to be explained, it's time to stop and think, okay, is this reasonable?
The evidence for pre-med murder in this case is not as strong as the evidence in the truck theft. You're right. But when you look at it, as a whole, it all fits. Nobody acts that way, celebrates, cleans up, destroys evidence and continues to be BFF with a man who just surprised you and kills someone. We aren't wired that way. Had MS not known t was going to happen, MM would have noticed he wasn't sleeping, he was distracted, he wasn't eating, a huge change in his demeanour. Nobody witnesses an unplanned murder and just walks away, unscathed.

I respect everyone’s opinion, as we all should. This is why we have trials. This has been emotional, and emotion tends to bring out conflict, rightly or wrongly.

I can’t say factually that MS was part of the plan all along, nor do I have to. I am not on the jury.

But I think a broader determination of his guilt or innocence can be established by looking at the evidence as a whole, and not the story MS wants the jury to believe. Be impartial and look back at everything. If you still believe the Crown didn’t prove its case against MS, that is your belief and it is respected.

I believe they did, and I think the evidence is overwhelming against both of them leading up to that night, during the murder, and in the days that followed.

Go look at all the evidence again, blocking his testimony from your mind. Anyone can pull a con job when looking at a life sentence. The evidence, the communication, shows he was a willing participant in this “plan” long before May 6[SUP]th[/SUP], 2013. Like I said, you don’t need a year to steal a truck. There was more to the plan than jacking a RAM 3500.

These idiots left too many clues everywhere, never thinking they would get caught. Just like in the LB murder (allegedly). In fact, while that evidence cannot be used right now, their screwups and trails left behind not only got them arrested in the TB case, but also LB. Both of them, together. This did not happen by accident. What are the odds of best friends getting TWO 1DM charges, together, in two separate murders, the victims complete strangers to one another?

As noted almost daily, MS took notes throughout the trial, and hung on every word said in that courtroom. When he finally took the stand after all the evidence had been presented, his story, very conveniently, placed him nowhere near the telling points in this trial, because he had all the key testimony written down and made up a story based on that testimony.

When disclosure showed that DM was trying to frame MS, MS took matters into his own hands. This was his version of payback, and he had many long hours, in a lonely cell, to lay out his plan of attack. That is why he paid attention, took notes, showed emotion, while DM played to the crowd. You saw the final version of his plan the day he took the stand.

MS is still a coward, still a thief, still a liar and still a con artist.

He proved that yet again on the stand, by trying to sell you something that just wasn’t true.

That is why the Crown is so adamant that both were part of this, and both were willing. They know the real Mark Smich.

As always, MOO.....

This was a very long trial with too many he said, she said. The story the circumstantial evidence tells does not line up with any of the stories told. The crown's story is most likely close to the truth, but the time of the actual shooting cannot be determined. Like the crown says, looking for who actually pulled the trigger misses the bigger murder picture.

Both have attempted to remove themselves from being the trigger puller. DM's story puts both of them in the truck, and MS's story puts himself in the other vehicle. And the Crown agrees with DM's story on this point.

Without ever hearing the three stories, the evidence shows that these two individuals were involved in a crime that was premeditated and had a high probability for violence. There is no circumstantial evidence of a scoping mission for test drives. There is evidence that they were planning on stealing the truck during the test drive. DM told AM they didn't steal IT's because MS was sick. This was at 5 P.M. on the 5th. As far as scoping, you would think they would have acknowledged that the IT test drive was a success since they did go on the test drive and scoped out the vehicle. But no, it was a failure because MS was sick on the test drive, meaning the mission was to steal the truck.

The evidence shows that this mission was different from previous missions. This mission was the first, or one of the first in DM's new "take if from the source" attitude. This was a theft mission that MS said they couldn't make any mistakes. This was a mission that both "bro's" seemed anxious to carry out. They were like children waiting for the "fireworks" to begin.

MOO

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 23 Std.
6:21 p.m Millard to Noudga: "Had a nice 5 hr nap & bath, refreshed and ready for the next stage of mission digestion"

*advertiser censored*
@susanclairmont how can he have a"nice nap and bath"just few hours after killing a human being unless ths what he was dreaming to accomplish

Susan Clairmont hat retweetet
*advertiser censored* 13 Std.
@susanclairmont I have seen court transport vehicle leave court on my walk from work. Get a chilling feeling knowing DM and MS are in there

Susan Clairmont hat retweetet
*advertiser censored* 13 Std.
@*advertiser censored* @susanclairmont I rank the shows: #1 Leitch #2 Dungey and #3 Pillay

I do think you have to throw MS testimony out because as the crown mentioned, his lawyer had a chance to corroborate some of it with witness but never did as it would be shown to be lies.