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  1. #1
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    FL - Terrorist Discussion/49 Killed in Orlando at Nightclub Pulse

    Dear Websleuths Members,

    We are going to try something.

    On this thread you may discuss all terror related subjects connected to the Pulse nightclub murders.

    The number 1 rule is...DON'T BE A JERK!!!

    That's it.

    Biggest rule.

    Do not attack each because you disagree.

    Don't accuse posters of being "sympathisers" with the terrorist.

    Stay away from saying mean things about each other.

    DON'T BE A JERK.

    As far as what you can discuss we are going to be very fluid concerning those decisions. Meaning things may change and you have to go with the flow.

    Talk about the shooter's ties to terrorism.

    Shooter's ties to his religion. Did his religion really make him kill?

    What do we do about American's who are born in the U.S.A. and grow up to be terrorists? How do we stop them?

    If the shooter didn't have access to guns would it have mattered? Could he pull off the mass killing ala Timothy McVeigh?

    How do we stop this from happening again?

    Those are just a few topics but you get the drift.

    The mods are stretched thin. Therefore, there will be no more warnings. If you are a jerk when you post or are disrespectful in any way you are gone. As always you must follow our Terms of Service.

    As Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about violations of rules on Websleuths, "I'll know it when I see it". Well, maybe he said that about porn. I don't know.

    Continue on...

    Tricia

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    Tricia Griffith
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  2. #2
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    After reading this article I hate to copy the quotes and give it more attention. I kinda sorta understand now why Lynch said they would not be sharing part of the 911 transcriptions. Why give them more to gloat about?

    Alleged American ISIS fighter praises Orlando gunman in new video

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tillicum View Post
    After reading this article I hate to copy the quotes and give it more attention. I kinda sorta understand now why Lynch said they would not be sharing part of the 911 transcriptions. Why give them more to gloat about?

    Alleged American ISIS fighter praises Orlando gunman in new video
    This shows how Lynch is wrong. The terrorist's are already using the Orlando massacre as a propaganda tool without the benefit of police recordings from the killer. JMO

  4. #4
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    So, I have been researching terminology used by media writers, reporters, talk show hosts, and, of course, politicians.

    What is "islamic"?

    What is "islamist"?

    How should either of those terms relate to "muslim"?

    My personal thought is that "islamist" is a newly manufactured term designed to distance islam as a religion, from radicals, and to describe it as a political ideology.

    The bigger question is, does it matter which term we use? (I think it does!) I do think it's essential to link islam with "radical" and "terrorist" when discussing anything related to islamic terrorism. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that all terrorism is somehow "equal", simply because it results in violence. I also think the newly minted term "jihadist terrorism" is intellectually dishonest, and intentionally vague and obtuse.

    So should we use "islamic" or "islamist"? What are the implications of each term, politically and socially?

    What I see is a lot of left leaning people and politicians contorting themselves into pretzels to try desperately to divorce islamic terrorism, from what they perceive to be "peaceful, moderate islam." But the dilemma for those on the left with the Orlando massacre is that 2 marginalized groups are involved (gays and muslims)-- one which has preyed on the other as victims. As such, it seems to me that there is a concerted effort to try to re-frame what happened in Orlando as more of a hate "crime" against gays, than islamic terrorism that targeted gays-- because that makes it more palatable and easier to defend islam and muslims who do not engage in terrorism, and attempt to divorce islam from "hate" terrorism (if that makes any sense).

    In essence, there is an effort afoot to persuade the public (IMO) that it's okay to hate HATE against gays, but NOT OK to hate islamic terrorism that targeted gays THIS time.

    So, back to terminology. Islamic, versus islamist, versus jihadist, versus muslim.

    Some links for thought:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

    Islamism, also known as Political Islam (Arabic: إسلام سياسي‎‎ islām siyāsī), is an Islamic revival movement often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt "to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life."[1] Islamism favors the reordering of government and society in accordance with the Shari'a.[2] The different Islamist movements have been described as "oscillating between two poles": at one end is a strategy of Islamization of society through state power seized by revolution or invasion; at the other "reformist" pole Islamists work to Islamize society gradually "from the bottom up".[3] The movements have "arguably altered the Middle East more than any trend since the modern states gained independence", redefining "politics and even borders" according to one journalist (Robin Wright).[4]
    http://www.newsweek.com/it-islamic-or-islamist-73961

    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...-vs.-islamists

    Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety; it is, rather, a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam.
    http://pamelageller.com/2011/10/isla...tinction.html/

    http://tarekfatah.com/islam-vs-islamists/ (video- 53 min)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-...b_5376617.html

    Thoughts?

  5. #5
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    During Mateen’s massacre, which also wounded 53 people, he called a 911 operator to pledge allegiance to ISIS. The terror group quickly claimed credit for the attack; however, officials have said there was no direct guidance from the jihadist organization. Rather, it is believed Mateen was only inspired by ISIS to carry out his assault on Pulse, a gay nightclub.
    I don't see how the possible lack of "direct guidance" vs inspiration by ISIS means anything. If ISIS is successful in influencing Muslims to massacre people by way of the internet, then it's virtually impossible to stop these attacks by detecting any "direct" contacts.

    Why would these terror groups use any kind of "direct" contact that can be detected by intelligence agencies when "indirect" methods seem to be working just fine? JMO

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06...l?intcmp=hpbt2

  6. #6
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    Authorities have said preliminary evidence indicates Mateen was a mentally disturbed individual who acted alone and without direction from outside networks, despite a pledge of loyalty he made to the Islamic State militant group in one of his phone calls.
    If our own government is saying that the Orlando killer was simply a mentally disturbed person and not a terrorist how are they planning in stopping the next attack?

    With that kind of reasoning they will not stop another attack. What are they going to propose? Tax the rich and spend the money on mental health programs? That's not going to work.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fl...-idUSKCN0Z50N4

  7. #7
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    Orlando massacre prompts some in LGBT community to come out -- for Trump


    The Orlando terror massacre has members of the LGBT community around the nation coming out – for Donald Trump and the Second Amendment.

    Some among the reliable Democratic constituency were not persuaded by President Obama’s post-attack call for new gun control measures and renewed warning against painting Islam in a negative light.
    I always known that there are a minority number of conservative gays who are opposed to gun control measures as a solution to the problem of Islamic terror attacks. I wish that there were more of them.


    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...l?intcmp=hpbt2

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    If our own government is saying that the Orlando killer was simply a mentally disturbed person and not a terrorist how are they planning in stopping the next attack?

    With that kind of reasoning they will not stop another attack. What are they going to propose? Tax the rich and spend the money on mental health programs? That's not going to work.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fl...-idUSKCN0Z50N4
    It's my opinion that there is no real effort at *preventing* another islamic terrorist attack against Americans, until at least January 20, 2017. Our current leadership is of the opinion that these terrorist attacks are regrettable, but that they are CRIMES to be dealt with after the fact, by law enforcement, and via the criminal justice system. (Just like any other domestic crimes.) Terrorism is an act of war. We are not formally *at war* with the perpetrators of islamic terrorism. (Although clearly THEY are at war with US, IMO.)

    Basically, we have been advised by our leaders to "be vigilant" about our own safety, and given a catchy platitude of "see something, say something". (Which is just a 2016 version of "duck and cover", IMO, but without the jingle song and video.)

    Advice from leaders to "be vigilant" and "see something, say something" is worse than no advice at all, IMO, because it subtly blames the victim instead of the perpetrator, when something bad happens. As in, "they" weren't "vigilant enough". It's a shifting of responsibility, IMO. Outsourcing the responsibility and accountability for security from security agencies to the public, IMO.

  9. #9
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    It's impossible to fight terror when the fact that it's even happening is denied.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    This shows how Lynch is wrong. The terrorist's are already using the Orlando massacre as a propaganda tool without the benefit of police recordings from the killer. JMO
    It feels wrong to me too but they're going to use it whether or not the full transcripts are released IMO. You said "without the benefit" so in a way they would benefit from it, right? Do we want them repeating his exact words in their propaganda? I have mixed feelings about it.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tillicum View Post
    It feels wrong to me too but they're going to use it whether or not the full transcripts are released IMO. You said "without the benefit" so in a way they would benefit from it, right? Do we want them repeating his exact words in their propaganda? I have mixed feelings about it.
    I think that withholding parts of the police recordings will not make any difference to the terror organizations that are using the Orlando killings as propaganda.

    Will the "exact" words be painful to some members of the public? Yes. Should that be the criteria for the full release? Or should we be more worried that ISIS gets exact quotes from the Orlando killer for their propaganda machine?

    Personally, I think that a full release of everything said by the miscreant terrorist is the best action to take. Let people decide what this guy was trying to convey.

    JMO

  12. #12
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    I am still, very upset that this murdering creep got to kill and wound nearly 100 innocents last weekend.
    I really don't care, although, I guess I should, what drove him to do this.
    I truly hate him.
    I do not want to hear his name, I do not want to see his selfies.
    If his wife or his family our complicant, I want to see the judicial book thrown at them to the maximum.

    All the hours, all of the horror and pain these victims suffered. Heart wrenching.
    I do not think that we'll Ever understand this.

  13. #13
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    What I'm concerned about is the attention span of the general public. I fear that the tragedy of the little boy killed by the alligator, a horrific accident, will persist longer in people's minds than the horrific intentional massacre of 49 souls, and the shooting of another 50+. The media feeds into that, IMO.

    People are not yet heartbroken "enough", or sad enough, or angry enough, to begin the very hard work needed to solve the problem of islamic terrorism in America, IMO. We are just not there YET, as a nation-- unbelievably. We are not yet united in our resolve as a nation to fix this (which I believe is absolutely solvable). We will eventually get there, IMO, but we have a ways to go yet.

    Meanwhile, we wait with anxiety for the next attack. Because we all know there WILL be a "next one". The public has exactly *no* confidence that authorities are getting a handle on this, IMO-- something the majority of the left and right both agree on.

    Right now, we can't prevent the next attack. On some level, most of us know this, IMO. And we all express this anxiety differently-- some make excuses for the attackers, some engage in hope and wishful thinking, some pray, some distract with obtuse comparisons and elite oratory, some are realists, frustrated with the official denial of the obvious. (I'm the latter, lol! In case it's not obvious!)

    (For the record, I'm ex-military, and I have traveled fairly extensively in the middle east, and some other muslim theocratic countries. And I'm a woman, so it wasn't exactly a picnic for me.)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Z View Post
    What I'm concerned about is the attention span of the general public. I fear that the tragedy of the little boy killed by the alligator, a horrific accident, will persist longer in people's minds than the horrific intentional massacre of 49 souls, and the shooting of another 50+. The media feeds into that, IMO.

    People are not yet heartbroken "enough", or sad enough, or angry enough, to begin the very hard work needed to solve the problem of islamic terrorism in America, IMO. We are just not there YET, as a nation-- unbelievably. We are not yet united in our resolve as a nation to fix this (which I believe is absolutely solvable). We will eventually get there, IMO, but we have a ways to go yet.

    Meanwhile, we wait with anxiety for the next attack. Because we all know there WILL be a "next one". The public has exactly *no* confidence that authorities are getting a handle on this, IMO-- something the majority of the left and right both agree on.

    Right now, we can't prevent the next attack. On some level, most of us know this, IMO. And we all express this anxiety differently-- some make excuses for the attackers, some engage in hope and wishful thinking, some pray, some distract with obtuse comparisons and elite oratory, some are realists, frustrated with the official denial of the obvious. (I'm the latter, lol! In case it's not obvious!)

    (For the record, I'm ex-military, and I have traveled fairly extensively in the middle east, and some other muslim theocratic countries. And I'm a woman, so it wasn't exactly a picnic for me.)
    I don't think that there are any easy answers to the problem of terrorist attacks on US soil.

    I know that increased gun control isn't the answer. I think that people should be prepared to fight back and try to stop a terrorist killer anyway they can if in a situation like the Orlando Pulse club.

    JMO
    Last edited by RANCH; 06-20-2016 at 12:22 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    If our own government is saying that the Orlando killer was simply a mentally disturbed person and not a terrorist how are they planning in stopping the next attack?

    With that kind of reasoning they will not stop another attack. What are they going to propose? Tax the rich and spend the money on mental health programs? That's not going to work.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fl...-idUSKCN0Z50N4
    Loretta Lynch and President Obama have both called him a terrorist and said this was an act of terror. Who are the authorities denying it and instead saying he was simply a mentally disturbed person?

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