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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    I read that also and it confused me. Did LE recover two fired .22 bullets? Did the state claim that both bullets struck her head and exited?

    I only remember one bullet being recovered along with some bullet fragments.
    There is no way a .22 bullet could possible go thru her, now maybe a .38 or .45, but there just isn't enough gun powder to enter and exit, only to enter.

    Hubby just said I was wrong.

    Ok..here is hubby's lowdown...LOL (taking notes quickly as he was talking...LOL)

    Hubby was sharpshooter in the service. He said a .22 should not go thru a 1 ˝” piece of wood. However, he has seen it done.
    Lots of factors go into it I guess…getting the low down from the hubby…he says it depends on the amount of gunpowder in the casing(shell), the range in which a person was shot, the bone density. The type of bullet, whether it is a full metal jacket or lead and the weight of the bullet. He said the bullet contains different grams. He says a .22 is really small. There are different .22 shells, there are long .22 shells and regular .22 shells and a .22 extra-long. .22 LR is the longer one….that one has more gun powder than a regular .22..not much though.
    I know nothing about guns…LOL
    Last edited by BigCityAccountant; 08-27-2016 at 12:28 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    I don't have the time to go look right now, but from memory.... there was more than one bullet recovered in the garage, I want to say 11, but not sure. The one fragment that was tested, is the one that could only be tested once... and the one that Sherry contaminated and deviated from protocol.

    The skull showed 2 gun shot wounds. If she was shot in the head with a .22, the bullet would not have exited and remained on the floor for months. At the moment I don't even recall if they determined if they were entrance or exit wounds. I will do some looking tomorrow
    No, I think there was only 1 bullet and 11 shells. The bullet detaches from the shell when it is fired..as the sharpshooter hubby says, the bullet comes out of the case.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCityAccountant View Post
    There is no way a .22 bullet could possible go thru her, now maybe a .38 or .45, but there just isn't enough gun powder to enter and exit, only to enter.
    Right... and I guess I should have added to my other post... we had a ton of debate about this early on, some of us thought if a bullet was going to be found, it should have been found in her remains (if it could survive the fire), but it wasn't.

  4. #64
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    If as per Motion filed by Ms. Zellner that SA was acquitted by the jury of mutilating a corpse then who do they think did that otherwise?
    Sorry if it sounds like a dumb question but i didn't get to watch the Trial.
    *FREE LEONARD PELTIER*
    Justice for an innocent man.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zerbert View Post
    HAH! I was WIDE AWAKE!!

    Okay, first of all I had to step WAY back from this because it was just consuming me and I was really spending an unhealthy amount of time staring at maps of cell phone towers. But I would like to direct the jury's attention to this post I made in March:
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...3#post12430313

    In which I pointed at a cell tower right near Whitelaw. However, it's closer than the 12 mile mark, so I dismissed it internally and started searching again at which point I went a little nuts and closed all my tabs. But now I've got about 50 of them open again and the weekend is here, so...
    OMG Same! (as my tween daughter would say lol!) I was mesmerized with Jaiddies enormous picks of the various ways to enter/exit the Avery salvage yard, among other things. ( How hot and long did that bonfire need to be again?).

    Actually those pics made me realize the ridiculousness of thinking SA would put the RAV in that spot...
    Last edited by Safeguard; 08-27-2016 at 12:21 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCityAccountant View Post
    There is no way a .22 bullet could possible go thru her, now maybe a .38 or .45, but there just isn't enough gun powder to enter and exit, only to enter.

    Hubby just said I was wrong.
    I was wondering if two bullets were recovered. How can anyone claim two .22LR bullets entered and exited her skull if her skull was never found? A .22LR could easily go through some parts of a persons head like their cheeks.

    JMO.

  7. #67
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    My favorite part is that I think she is planning on doing tests as to the CONFIRMATION of the bones, as well. Ya'll know those cremains have been my sticking point and a HUUUUUGE red flag from the get go for me, LOL.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCityAccountant View Post
    There is no way a .22 bullet could possible go thru her, now maybe a .38 or .45, but there just isn't enough gun powder to enter and exit, only to enter.

    Hubby just said I was wrong.
    I think maybe if TH was shot in the head for the bullet to exit the skull or not would have to be determined by a ballistic expert and would probably be dependent on how the shot/s was fired and at what range? They probably wouldn't know in TH's case because there was no body to autopsy.
    *FREE LEONARD PELTIER*
    Justice for an innocent man.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiddie View Post
    My favorite part is that I think she is planning on doing tests as to the CONFIRMATION of the bones, as well. Ya'll know those cremains have been my sticking point and a HUUUUUGE red flag from the get go for me, LOL.
    Yes exactly. She mentioned something about the state of the bones when interviewed outside the courthouse. I think it would come down to how someone could be burnt on a bonfire and there remains looking the way they supposedly did?
    *FREE LEONARD PELTIER*
    Justice for an innocent man.

  10. #70
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    "Making a Murderer" attorney seeks more evidence testing in Steven Avery case


    His attorney, Kathleen Zellner, filed the motion for testing Friday. She told reporters outside the courthouse that she wants to date blood and DNA found at the scene to see if it was planted.

    She says no one who is guilty would ever agree to such testing. She said the results will show Avery isn’t guilty and someone else killed Halbach.

    “The most reassuring thing is that we are going to get to the bottom of who killed Teresa Halbach,” Zellner said. “And we firmly believe that we will establish it was not Steven Avery.”
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/making-a...hleen-zellner/


  11. #71
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    So they plan on dating the blood and DNA to see if was planted. How does that work?

  12. #72
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    I think I found the answer to my question.

    The filing also seeks radiocarbon testing, "which could definitively establish the age of Mr. Avery's blood found in the victim's vehicle and determine, based on the age, if the blood was planted." Zellner also wants trace testing to be done on the car, to determine if chemical solvents were used to remove any DNA.
    http://www.people.com/article/steven...vidence-appeal

  13. #73
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    If they find chemical solvents where used to remove DNA how would that help Steven Avery?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    I was wondering if two bullets were recovered. How can anyone claim two .22LR bullets entered and exited her skull if her skull was never found? A .22LR could easily go through some parts of a persons head like their cheeks.

    JMO.
    Just went back to edit my post...LOL I know nothing about guns...LOL

    Hubby found this website to answer my question to him...he says I need a new hobby...LOL

    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-291094.html

    I did some googling while I was typing up my last post. I found some interesting studies on the "Deep Blue at the University of Michigan" site.

    The study was done on femur bones (the strongest bones in the human body) with steel balls of .25 an inch diameter.

    I was amazed. The bone was shattered and "completely separated the distal end from the shaft" at only 51.1 ft-lbs! The photograph makes me queezy just looking at it.

    It also took less then 10 ft-lbs to put neat little round holes all the way through the bone. Anything less had a chance of getting stuck in the bone. But 10 ft-lbs is nothing.

    The density of the bone had almost no effect either. They tested osteoporotic bones as well as normal ones.

    This proves that a 22lr from any barrel has more then enough strength to pass through a femur and would not have any trouble passing through the weaker skull.

    It seems that many people in this forum highly underestimate the power of their firearms.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this?

  15. #75
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    also from that site...

    @ DNS

    Femur shafts can suffer greenstick (aka spiral) fractures quite easily with the correct force.

    Not to nitpick, but I feel you are a poster who has good information generally and this one needs to be rejigged.
    A spiral fracture is not associated with or synonymous with a greenstick fracture. A greenstick fracture is an incomplete fracture of a paediatric bone. The reason it has that appearance is because of the difference in mineralisation between a kid's bones and an adult's. The kid's bones will have more 'give' and may bend on one side and suffer a compression deformity (or partial fracture) on the other. A spiral fracture is a complete 'break' through the bone but it has a significant extent on the long axis of the bone. The greenstick involves a narrower area (on the long axis of the bone).

    @ All

    As regards bones and gunshots:

    1) A round with a low mass and velocity is more prone to deflection and failure to fracture a bone, all other things being equal.
    2) The skull is a very complex target, primarily because of the bones of the face. These are complex both in terms of density and arrangement. These variables (even if you pretend to have multiple identical skulls) mean that deflections and failures to penetrate are not surprising with any service calibre load.
    3) As DNS said, you get variation in terms of mineralisation, bone thickness, underlying metabolic disorders and overlying tissue variables. These all add up. If you have a look at a few CT scans through the same anatomical baseline on multiple patients, you will get variations that are easily appreciated.
    4) The .22 is at a disadvantage in terms of mass and also its ability to retain mass (in other words it is prone to fragmentation because it has no jacket and is made from soft lead).

    Here is some more for you to chew on:

    If you guys have a serious interest in gunshot wounds you should read Vincent J.M. Di Maio's book 'Gunshot Wounds.'

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084...lance&n=283155

    In Di Maio's book, Chapter 9 deals with 'Bloody Bodies and Bloody Scenes.'
    Di Maio noted that of 185 cases of suicide by .22, only 20% of those bullets exited. Of 60 cases of homicide by .22 only 6.6% exited. These figures are from gunshot heads only. He further adds: "...of the bullets that do not exit the head, the vast majority are retained in the cranial cavity. Thus, internal ricochet is fairly common, occurring in anywhere from 10 to 15% of the cases..." (See page 264 and 265)

    Also, you can give Malcolm Dodd's book 'Terminal Ballistics' a read:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084...lance&n=283155

    In Dodd's book, Chapter 8 deals with the 'Rimfire .22 Projectile.'
    Dodd acknowledges that "...the .22 short and LR rounds also have the reputation of internal ricochet within the cranium, further creating complex injury patterns..." (See page 41)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I've seen one or two gunshot wounds and I can tell you that even small projectiles can fracture heavy bone. In one case a .25ACP broke a guy's thumb and his femur. That's not bad for a mousegun. in another case a larger projectile (somewhere around .357) pancaked and deflected off a femur. Of course there are variables to do with clothing and range and the type of projectile, but the bottom line is that you can expect the unexpected.

    Having said that, I would say that a .22 is low on my list of projectiles I would choose to penetrate heads. There are too many variables however, to dismiss it outright as not capable of doing it.

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