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  1. #1
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    The carpet outside of the wine cellar with urine stains

    James Kolar was interviewed on Reddit and the following is one of his statements about the carpet:

    "I believe the commonly held theory, based upon the sequencing of injuries, is that the garroting and the location of her death was on the small piece of carpet located outside the wine cellar door. Her bladder let go upon death, accounting for the urine stains in the front of her clothing and carpet. The rear application of the garrote is confirming evidence of her being on her stomach during this act."

    Is it possible that this carpet was originally in the "train room" and it was moved and placed (carried with JBR's body) outside the wine cellar door?
    I am thinking that this could have been done to remove suspicion that the murder occurred in the "train room" where Burke usually went. Just
    another clue to remove him from any suspicion.

    In any event, my question is - how did her body get from the carpet (with the obvious urine stain) to inside the wine cellar (with the door latched)

    Just my thoughts today. I just think that that piece of carpet tells its own story.
    "Every thought you produce, anything you say, any action you do, it bears your signature."
    - Thich Nhat Hanh

  2. #2
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    Stain

    Was it ever established whose urine stain it was (dog? JBR? Unknown? )

    -Nin
    If the key does not fit, it's the wrong key.

  3. #3
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    The carpet in front of the door to the WC was removed by LE. So, it seems that the urine stain was right there.

  4. #4
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    Aug 2013
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    Hi Zen,

    I don't think the carpet could have been moved from that area, because law enforcement had to actually cut out an area of the carpet. They would have just taken out the whole carpet (I'd imagine) if the carpet patch itself was removable, but I could be wrong.

    How did no one -- Fleet W., the Detective who searched the area but couldn't figure out how to open the cellar door -- see the urine stain? Was it cleaned up and/or dried?

    If this was a crime perpetrated by an intruder, why would he keep the victims' clothes on? Or re-dress her and then do this?

    I really try to see the intruder theory, but honestly, it simply doesn't make sense to me.

    Also, could the other end of the paint brush have been disposed of in the boiler?

  5. #5
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    Nov 2016
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    I don't understand how, if the murder/staging/strangling took place in the basement, did the nylon fibers show up in JBR's bed? My thought is that the murderer went and laid in JBR's bed in grief, or did some staging of the bedding, and the fibers were put there after the fact. Other theories?

  6. #6
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    Jul 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by sek4278 View Post
    I don't understand how, if the murder/staging/strangling took place in the basement, did the nylon fibers show up in JBR's bed? My thought is that the murderer went and laid in JBR's bed in grief, or did some staging of the bedding, and the fibers were put there after the fact. Other theories?
    The perp went in to JBR's bed to get her blanket or something else that was a favorite of hers?

  7. #7
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    Oct 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Userid View Post
    Hi Zen,

    I don't think the carpet could have been moved from that area, because law enforcement had to actually cut out an area of the carpet. They would have just taken out the whole carpet (I'd imagine) if the carpet patch itself was removable, but I could be wrong.

    How did no one -- Fleet W., the Detective who searched the area but couldn't figure out how to open the cellar door -- see the urine stain? Was it cleaned up and/or dried?

    If this was a crime perpetrated by an intruder, why would he keep the victims' clothes on? Or re-dress her and then do this?

    I really try to see the intruder theory, but honestly, it simply doesn't make sense to me.

    Also, could the other end of the paint brush have been disposed of in the boiler?
    From the photo posted in a different thread recently, by otg, (sorry I can't remember which thread) it looks as if the paint tote may have been placed directly on top of the urine stain.

    As far as the missing end of the paintbrush goes, I don't know how long it would have been but a short piece, or even if it was cut into smaller pieces, could have been washed down a plughole.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    From the photo posted in a different thread recently, by otg, (sorry I can't remember which thread) it looks as if the paint tote may have been placed directly on top of the urine stain.

    As far as the missing end of the paintbrush goes, I don't know how long it would have been but a short piece, or even if it was cut into smaller pieces, could have been washed down a plughole.
    Or the garbage disposal.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
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    Aug 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    From the photo posted in a different thread recently, by otg, (sorry I can't remember which thread) it looks as if the paint tote may have been placed directly on top of the urine stain.

    As far as the missing end of the paintbrush goes, I don't know how long it would have been but a short piece, or even if it was cut into smaller pieces, could have been washed down a plughole.
    Yes, this is why I was asking -- that's how it looked to me too. I wonder if that spot was were the paint tray was normally kept; or if it was somewhere else in the boiler room.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    From the photo posted in a different thread recently, by otg, (sorry I can't remember which thread) it looks as if the paint tote may have been placed directly on top of the urine stain.

    As far as the missing end of the paintbrush goes, I don't know how long it would have been but a short piece, or even if it was cut into smaller pieces, could have been washed down a plughole.

    Tortoise,
    From memory was that urine stain to the left of the wine-cellar door or right in front of it?

    To place the paint-tote on top of the urine stain smacks of yet more staging.

    The missing piece of paintbrush could be anywhere, in theory it should not be critical to the investigation, but it might have been left inside JonBenet?

    Stuff assumed missing in this case are pink pajama bottoms, size-6 underwear, and a piece of the paintbrush?

    That forensic details can be withheld you need look no further than the white long johns, which everyone assumed were suitable for JonBenet, myself included, I never saw an issue with them.

    Once the evidence image is released its apparent that these probably belong to Burke Ramsey, and there is zero probability Patsy would redress her pageant princess in male long johns, particularly if undoing played a part and she was thinking ahead to how JonBenet would be portrayed.

    .


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Userid View Post
    Yes, this is why I was asking -- that's how it looked to me too. I wonder if that spot was were the paint tray was normally kept; or if it was somewhere else in the boiler room.
    Userid,
    LHP the housekeeper said in a statement where the paint-tote was usually kept, again from memory she said she cleaned it away and put it at the bottom of the spiral staircase just before Christmas?

    .

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Userid,
    LHP the housekeeper said in a statement where the paint-tote was usually kept, again from memory she said she cleaned it away and put it at the bottom of the spiral staircase just before Christmas?

    .
    Ok, thanks -- I thought I read somewhere that she normally did her painting in the basement. I will try to find it on candyrose.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Userid View Post
    Ok, thanks -- I thought I read somewhere that she normally did her painting in the basement. I will try to find it on candyrose.
    Userid,
    here you go:

    1999 February 18 - Lawrence Schillers book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

    Page 181:

    "Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and MARKERS. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it." On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs.....by Linda Hoffmann-Pugh"

    04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

    Page 37:

    "In the far corner of the basement, just outside the small room where the body had lain, Detective Mike Everett discovered a half-dozen oil paintings on canvas and an artist's plastic tote box belonging to Patsy. In the tote was a broken brush splotched by paint. Splinters were on the floor beside the tote. It was a major find because the broken brush matched the fractured end of the multicolored stick used in the garrote. The detectives had found the source of part of the murder weapon and where it had been broken."
    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com
    Hallway Outside Wine Cellar Room. There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Jameson asserts "most investigators" believe this is the area in which she was killed.
    .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Tortoise,
    From memory was that urine stain to the left of the wine-cellar door or right in front of it?

    To place the paint-tote on top of the urine stain smacks of yet more staging.

    The missing piece of paintbrush could be anywhere, in theory it should not be critical to the investigation, but it might have been left inside JonBenet?

    Stuff assumed missing in this case are pink pajama bottoms, size-6 underwear, and a piece of the paintbrush?

    That forensic details can be withheld you need look no further than the white long johns, which everyone assumed were suitable for JonBenet, myself included, I never saw an issue with them.

    Once the evidence image is released its apparent that these probably belong to Burke Ramsey, and there is zero probability Patsy would redress her pageant princess in male long johns, particularly if undoing played a part and she was thinking ahead to how JonBenet would be portrayed.

    .
    Bib 1 - it was to the left of the wine cellar door, just in front of the paintings stacked against the wall.

    Bib 2 - They didn't fall down on JonBenet so they looked like hand-me-downs to me. Did you not know that JonBenet spent most of her childhood dressed in Burke's hand-me-downs, so why has Patsy suddenly become super caring about what she is wearing while she is staging a murder? It's not like she is going to have to wear them for viewing in her casket, or that the parents knew these police photographs would become public information.

    JMO but I don't agree with this speculation about her clothing, whether it be because the underwear was too big or the longjohns being boyswear. I think it was a decision made for one reason only - to limit the visits back upstairs to JonBenet's bedroom to get other clothing. Either to contain contamination, or not cause any more noise and light commotion. I think it likely that these were close by, in a gift wrapped up for Jenny and in a clean laundry pile or charity donation pile.

  15. #15
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    Sep 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    Bib 1 - it was to the left of the wine cellar door, just in front of the paintings stacked against the wall.

    Bib 2 - They didn't fall down on JonBenet so they looked like hand-me-downs to me. Did you not know that JonBenet spent most of her childhood dressed in Burke's hand-me-downs, so why has Patsy suddenly become super caring about what she is wearing while she is staging a murder? It's not like she is going to have to wear them for viewing in her casket, or that the parents knew these police photographs would become public information.

    JMO but I don't agree with this speculation about her clothing, whether it be because the underwear was too big or the longjohns being boyswear. I think it was a decision made for one reason only - to limit the visits back upstairs to JonBenet's bedroom to get other clothing. Either to contain contamination, or not cause any more noise and light commotion. I think it likely that these were close by, in a gift wrapped up for Jenny and in a clean laundry pile or charity donation pile.
    Tortoise,
    JMO but I don't agree with this speculation about her clothing, whether it be because the underwear was too big or the longjohns being boyswear. I think it was a decision made for one reason only - to limit the visits back upstairs to JonBenet's bedroom to get other clothing. Either to contain contamination, or not cause any more noise and light commotion. I think it likely that these were close by, in a gift wrapped up for Jenny and in a clean laundry pile or charity donation pile.
    Unless your name is Burke Ramsey there is no need to bother about visits upstairs since if its the parents then everyone will be wide awake at this point.

    The R's are attempting to create a fake but normalized crime-scene and there is no way on this planet that dressing JonBenet in Burke's long johns and oversized size-12 underwear achieves this. Most people are suspicious once they see the size of her underwear, never mind Burke's long johns complete with toilet accessory.

    Burke might have decided not to return upstairs for noise considerations, but not so the parents and JonBenet had an extensive wardrobe of clothing much better suited to the then current staging requirements.

    What is weird about this staging scenario is that the long johns were allegedly upstairs and size-12's downstairs, if you factor in the knife, then we can assume whomever fetched the long johns also found the knife, and regardless of who this was, a trip was made upstairs, thus refuting noise as a consideration?

    .

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