1372 users online (260 members and 1112 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 5 of 24 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 15 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 353
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by meachchar View Post
    Has anyone seen an age progression photo of Mary? If it is possible she is still alive no one would recognize her.
    I've never seen one. There are just the same 2 pictures of her on Doe Network and Charley Project. I agree with NSC that an age progression photo would be a good idea.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    10,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria View Post
    I've never seen one. There are just the same 2 pictures of her on Doe Network and Charley Project. I agree with NSC that an age progression photo would be a good idea.
    We may be able to get someone to do one.....but, is there enough evidence to suggest that she is alive to request?

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448 View Post
    We may be able to get someone to do one.....but, is there enough evidence to suggest that she is alive to request?
    That would be great if we could get someone to do it. I really don't know if there is enough evidence that she is alive, but there really isn't sufficient evidence to prove she's NOT alive either except the passage of time. I definitely think it would be worth a shot to try to get an age progression done.

  4. #64
    gaia227's Avatar
    gaia227 is offline I have never taken any exercise except sleeping and resting - M. Twain
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,742
    Yay! I am always very happy to see people talking about Mary. Her disappearence is one of the few that really get me.

    I think the interesting thing about the woman, Carolyn, who reported that the same evening Mary disappeared she was followed in the same parking lot by a man as she walked to her car - he tapped on her window and told her her tires were low - is that if it was the smae man who kidnapped Mary that would most likely mean it was completely random. He was not able to abduct Carolyn so he went after another woman - Mary. Then it would all be coincidence that she ended up in Charlotte and Raleigh, the phone calls, her behavior, the mysterious flowers would all be coincidental. I don't think that is the case. I completely believe that whoever made those calls to Mary was behind her disappearence. It has all the sounds of a jilted lover who could not bear the fact that Mary had moved on and married. I have never heard anything about her family offering up any previous boyfriends or anything. The family -that opens a whole other can of worms - it is very strange that Mary's mother asked police to quit looking for her after only two years - why?

    I don't think Mary's husband had anything to do with it. I know some people speculate he did it for insurance money but if that were the case then he would have made sure her body was found so he could get the money.

    Diane Shields. Is that just a coincidence? The whole scenario from beginning to end is truly baffling.


    I agree with you Cambria - with the exception of time there is no evidence to prove she is dead - or alive.
    'The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated'
    --Ghandi


  5. #65
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere great!!
    Posts
    1,973
    I have to say that I agree with yall about the married/ex-lover, someone that would cause her to be publicly ashamed or humiliated. Remember, things were more conservative back then as to how a "lady" should behave. Seems like if our presidents can have affairs; now you can too!!!

    I think there are several things that come into play here:

    1) Ex-Boyfriend/Lover - IMO, would have been from another state (NC) She said how she was "married now". Someone local would probably be more aware of her marriage. And possibly Mary had seperated herself from this situation. Found Roy and continued on her life with him. In the mean-time ex lover if married becomes unattached and is ready to pursue relationship with Mary by this time she is now married. EL won't give up on her. (btw, maybe she really does love ex but is now married and could never endure this type of humiliation) - he has her kidnapped. Hit in the head (blood smeared in car was no more than a bloody nose) made to bleed to plant blood in the car to throw LE by making it look like a crime scene. In the meantime the car is taken back to Lenox to further throw off LE. Her card is used by her in the gas station to continue to throw off LE (to be honest not sure why this part confuses me a bit)

    She reunites with her ex never contacting anyone again. He either threatens her with her life to never leave him or she wants to stay.

    It sounds more like a disappearing act. And let's just say IF she was involved in her own disappearance it makes better sense now about her getting the gas in NC. I don't know why the head wound if she was going along with it. But food for thought.

    Next, why would her mother ask to call off the investigation? Did she find out Mary was alive and her mother would be humiliated at her daughter actually being alive and part of a "ruse" -- Or was her mother just tired and wanted it to rest???

    Was this ex someone very well connected? Mob, political, or very wealthy??

    Would Mary have had plastic surgery to change her look??

    Another thought I was having is someone at the bank "connected" - was Mary having an affair with a married man at the bank? Was this other lady also having an affair at a later time at the bank? I think that is also QUITE possible.

    I will leave it here right now because my kids are interupting me every 30 seconds and I can't stay on track with my train of thought.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    48

    Mary Shotwell - More To Think About

    I have to say that I agree with yall about the married/ex-lover, someone that would cause her to be publicly ashamed or humiliated. Remember, things were more conservative back then as to how a "lady" should behave. Seems like if our presidents can have affairs; now you can too!!!

    I think there are several things that come into play here:

    1) Ex-Boyfriend/Lover - IMO, would have been from another state (NC) She said how she was "married now". Someone local would probably be more aware of her marriage. And possibly Mary had seperated herself from this situation. Found Roy and continued on her life with him. In the mean-time ex lover if married becomes unattached and is ready to pursue relationship with Mary by this time she is now married. EL won't give up on her. (btw, maybe she really does love ex but is now married and could never endure this type of humiliation) - he has her kidnapped.

    Was this ex someone very well connected? Mob, political, or very wealthy??
    Yes, I agree with your profile of Mary's abductor - he is (or was) powerful, dangerous, and very well organized. He may have been wealthy and well-connected, and he may very well have had criminal connections. At least two accomplices had to help the abductor in Mary's diasappearance: the second man in the car with Mary and the person who stayed behind in Atlanta and returned Mary's car to the Lenox Square parking lot during the day on Friday.

    These were not amateurs and this was not a crime of opportunity. In spite of Carolyn Smitherman's experience on the Sunday after Mary's disappearance with a thin man who tried to jump into her car in the Lenox parking lot, the circumstances of Mary's disappearance and the profile of her abductor are completely different. Mary's abductor stalked her for weeks before she disappeared; he had a ready get-away vehicle with a stolen tag (stolen in the Charlotte area weeks earlier). He enlisted at least two accomplices. And if you measure his power in silence, none of his accomplices (nor their wives nor girlfriends nor family members) have spoken out in the forty-four years since Mary disappeared.

    Like you, I'm also baffled by the North Carolina - Georgia connection. I looked up Mary's high school and college yearbooks, I know some of her Atlanta roommates (prior to her marriage) were also her classmates at UNC at Greensboro College (then Women's College of NC at Greensboro). Although Mary met and lived with Roy Little in the Atlanta area, they were married in Charlotte, NC over the Labor Day weekend at Myers Park Presbyterian Church six weeks before she disappeared. Some of her roommates refused to attend, because they didn't like Roy Little.

    If you consider that the Mary signed the first gas station credit card receipt sometime after midnight the same Thursday she said goodbye to her friend Isla in the Lenox Square parking lot and that the trip between Atlanta and Charlotte would take between 3 to 4 hours, Mary, her abductor, and the accomplice had to leave Atlanta within hours of when her friend Isla last saw her at 8 pm.

    The second gas station credit card receipt was signed on Friday afternoon in Raleigh some ten to twelve hours later. The trip from Charlotte to Raleigh is 2 hours or less under almost any circumstances.

    Based on the timeline, the careless use of Mary's gasoline credit cards, I can only agree with Detective Ponder - the trip to NC was a red herring. Someone wanted to lead police "away from Atlanta".

    Thanks for ALL the postings - keep the interest alive.
    Last edited by ncthom; 02-25-2009 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Correction

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    52
    I agree about North Carolina being a red herring. Mostly because I can't get over the fact that another girl in Mary's social set who ended up with Mary's job was murdered. I have to believe that that job somehow led to both of their deaths.

    I think there's a connection to the bank. That bank was incredibly powerful in Atlanta during this time period. It was one of two banks that was funding Atlanta's amazing growth spurt. Higher ups would have had the money, resources, and power to arrange such an elaborate hoax.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere great!!
    Posts
    1,973
    Quote Originally Posted by AMP1979 View Post
    I agree about North Carolina being a red herring. Mostly because I can't get over the fact that another girl in Mary's social set who ended up with Mary's job was murdered. I have to believe that that job somehow led to both of their deaths.

    I think there's a connection to the bank. That bank was incredibly powerful in Atlanta during this time period. It was one of two banks that was funding Atlanta's amazing growth spurt. Higher ups would have had the money, resources, and power to arrange such an elaborate hoax.
    I agree! And actually this was my second theory before my kids kept pestering me to get off the computer!!! Something high up at the bank could have orchestrated this type of abduction/disappearence!!

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,630
    I guess it does make more sense that what happened to Mary probably had more to do with the bank and the Diane Shields murder than a jilted ex-lover. I just can't completely ignore those phone calls though, unless whoever made those calls WAS someone from the bank that she had seen before she married Roy Little, and no one knew about the relationship.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    52
    I don't think that is outside the realm of possibility. She was a pretty girl, whom I sure dated normally when she moved to Atlanta. Lots of men, single or not, could have been attracted. Hell, she could have married Little to get away from a man she felt was horribly wrong but that she couldn't stay away from. Or someone could have simply been obsessed with her. It's not like the idea of stalker was really well known among young women at that point.


  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    48
    I guess it does make more sense that what happened to Mary probably had more to do with the bank and the Diane Shields murder than a jilted ex-lover. I just can't completely ignore those phone calls though, unless whoever made those calls WAS someone from the bank that she had seen before she married Roy Little, and no one knew about the relationship.
    Yes, I'm also inclined to think Mary's abductor was a powerful man from Atlanta - a man she met and became involved with after she moved to Atlanta in 1962 after she graduated from college - a man who was unsuitable for her to be involved with publicly (probably because he was married) and required her to keep their relationship a secret.

    In Mary's phone conversation reportedly overheard by a job applicant at C&S Bank (Mary worked in the Human Resources Office in the Mitchell Street Operations Center) days before her disappearance, Mary said something such as, "I am a married woman now; I can't visit you. You can come visit me if you like." I worked at the Mitchell Street Operations Center in the 1980s - it was a very large building that housed many departments. I think Mary words could easily be interpreted to refer to a visit from someone inside the building - Mary didn't feel comfortable stopping by his department or office as she had when she was single.

    Also the C&S Main Banking Office at Five Points where most of the top executives worked was only a few blocks away from the Mitchell Street Operations Center. Mary easily could have meant that she no longer felt comfortable stopping by that building to visit this man since her marriage. The fact that she added, "You can come to visit me," may have meant her secret lover was an executive with the bank who could visit any department, office, or employee at any time without raising suspicion.

    Because C&S Bank was the leading Atlanta bank financing Atlanta's real estate boom, Mary's secret lover could have been almost anyone who had business with the bank - an attorney, a politician, a well-connected businessman. But I firmly believe Mary's abductor was an Atlantan - a man she met and became involved with in Atlanta. And I believe she had tired of the illicit relationship by 1965 and saw her marriage to Roy Little as a way out.

    I believe police should have treated this as a well-planned, targeted crime against Mary by a powerful, well-connected Atlanta man. The fact that some detectives considered the Carolyn Smitherman lead seriously (a random man attempting to jump in a woman's car in the Lenox Square parking lot) tells me that they never developed a strong profile of the perpetrator. Even though the FBI became involved, the FBI had not developed criminal profiling in 1965.

    I think we've come up with two specific suggestions that law enforcement could use (or a television show focusing on this story):

    1. An age-progression simulation of how Mary might look today.
    2. An accurate, detailed FBI profile of the perpetrator

    Those two things alone might cause persons with information to come forward and that's what we need most now.

    I sent an email to truTV's Haunting Evidence because they've focused on unsolved crimes from the same era (the 1960s), and although they replied to my email, so far they've made no commitment.

    We can make a difference - Keep up the good work.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    2,900
    snipped from another poster {Yes, I agree with your profile of Mary's abductor - he is (or was) powerful, dangerous, and very well organized. He may have been wealthy and well-connected, and he may very well have had criminal connections. At least two accomplices had to help the abductor in Mary's diasappearance: the second man in the car with Mary and the person who stayed behind in Atlanta and returned Mary's car to the Lenox Square parking lot during the day on Friday.}

    I am currently stuck on the obvious phone calls, and roses, being 5. I'm wondering if she was involved with a college professor, who was in fact a predator, in a perfect position to control male and female students. I have not read the description of the man in Charlotte, and men in Raleigh. Between Charlotte and Raleigh is Greensboro where she went to college. The professor could have picked up a student to bring him along to further confuse LE. Theory of course, he steals a car, or has a student do it, weeks before the abduction-keeps tabs on the husband to find out when he is out of town-abducts her at opportune time, not in the lenox parking lot, hits her in the head, at some point removes her underclothes, plants them, tells student when to return car to Lenox parking lot, why? because that is where the last person she knew saw her. The other incident of the man with the low tire story could have also been the student, perhaps,or not, because the case is full of trickery.-ok, leaves the student in Altanta, - travels to Charlotte where he probably rapes and tortures her- travels to Greensboro to pick up another student-travels to Raleigh where she is seen with two men, not one.- drops off second student.- and who knows from there, but probably murders her.
    These two students comply because they are meek, without good family support, need the grade to stay in school, graduate, not make their dad's angry etc. etc.


    Mary dated her husband for 10 months before marrying him, and she was married for six weeks. That's 2 weeks short of a year. If the former lover lived in Atlanta, he would have known of her relationship with what was to be her husband. After she is married, she becomes empowered, and tells the chronic predator to back off, and leave her alone, kinda almost.

    That the husband kept a log of her miles on the car coud be strange, or not. It was a brand new car. Some friends didn't come to the wedding because they didn't like him, also strange. Usually freinds are supportive, even if they don't agree with your choice, especially back then, I would think. They could have been jealous, or not able to afford the fancy dresses, gifts, etc pure speculation.
    I would like more info on her personality...

    ETA; the other woman who was murdered 17 months later who had had Mary's job after she disappeared, but was no longer employed there, that could have been another ruse. I don't know what the papers were like and how much pressure was on LE to solve the case. Also iirc, this was also in the same time span that Mary's mom called "a detective" and asked him to call off the investigation. Did the mom receive threats after Dianne Shields was murdered?
    Did Mary have any siblings? Fear for other loved ones, or her daughter's friends may have compelled her to make a call like that. jmo
    Last edited by yosande; 03-02-2009 at 07:16 AM.
    My Opinion Only..MOO

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    2,900
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
    A couple of these articles say that Mary was seperated from her husband. Is that true or simply bad reporting?
    Dianne replaced Mary at her job, and at one point in time, the papers don't say when, she also lived with the same roommate? Are these true, or simly more bad reporting. If the former statement is untrue, how can any of it be believed?
    The last article was the most interesting in that it talked of a "note" found. Why didn't she just write "help" on the credit card paper? geesh. It also stated she was in the passenger seat, not the one driving. That was good info. I had thought she was the one driving for some strange reason. I don't know if it states where the boy found the note though.

    Oh, with Dianne, a nine foot trail leading to the trunk? Did the perp want her found or what!! jmo
    My Opinion Only..MOO

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    48

    Good Questions, Good Analysis

    Yosande, thank you for your excellent post and good analysis. I think I can answer a couple of your questions. Even though I had not seen the newspaper reports from May 1967 about the Diane Sheilds murder that referred to Mary Shotwell Little as separated at the time of her disappearance, I think those reports are misleading and not strictly accurate. Roy Little had been away from Atlanta for at least a week prior to Mary's disappearance. He was training for a new job as a Bank Examiner with the Georgia Dept of Banking - which incidentally was my first job out of college. The Examiner job required about 80 percent travel because many state-chartered banks were located outside the Atlanta area. I actually worked with some Examiners who had known Roy Little. To the best of my recollection Roy Little had been in the LaGrange or Columbus area since Monday of the week when Mary disappeared on Thursday evening, October 14th 1965. Nothing I ever read hinted at any marital problems between Roy and Mary Little. Mary's parents in fact came to Atlanta and stayed with Roy Little at the new apartment in the Decatur area during the initial search.

    I can tell you that mileage logs were mandatory when I was Bank Examiner for expense reimbursement purposes. Even though I've never kept a mileage log at any other time in my life, I did during the years I worked for the Dept of Banking. I don't find it at all unusual that Roy Little kept a mileage log. Also the Mercury Comet was a new car in October 1965 so it would have been fairly easy to estimate the mileage even without Roy's log.

    Mary did have a younger sister who has been referred to in at least one news article. I believe Detective Ponder, who told the Atlanta Journal that the case haunted him for many years, said he had grown close to the Shotwell family and stayed in touch with Mary's mother, Margaret, in particular. It mentioned that he went to Charlotte some years after Mary's disappearance to attend her younger sister's wedding. I never been able to find Mary's younger sister's name in any of my research - the family may well have shielded her from unwanted attention after all the publicity surronding Mary's disappearance.

    Your theory about the educator is interesting and one I'd never considered. I have collected copies of some of Mary's college yearbooks and her senior year high school yearbook (from Myers Park High School in Charlotte). The Faculty and Admininstration at The Women's College of the UNC (renamed UNC at Greensboro around 1969) was roughly 60 percent female - so we can't rule out that Mary's theoretical ex-lover was a man of power from her college days.

    One of the women listed in news accounts as a mutual roommate of both Mary Shotwell and Diane Sheilds was a woman named Sandra Green. I believe this is the same Sandra Green who attended college with Mary in Greensboro. If so, this Sandra Green appears to have graduated a year before Mary in 1961. It makes sense that Mary's parents who feared for her safety when she expressed the desire to move to a larger city and find a job would have allowed her to room with one of her former classmates. Some news reports cite several women who lived with Mary (in the Lenox or Emory area I believe) when she originally moved to Atlanta in 1962. Some of the other women in the group, in addition to Sandra Green and Mary Shotwell, may also have had ties to the Women's College and North Carolina.

    Newspaper accounts from the late 1990s mention that Mary's mother was still alive at that time. Mary's father, Nathan, died in 1979. I assume Mary's mother is still alive because I've found no online obituaries or news stories of her death. But I know she's no longer living in the family home in Charlotte and in fact has probably left the Charlotte area altogether. If Margaret Shotwell is still alive today - she must be quite elderly.

    Thanks for your interest and your posting. As we keep trying to create a more precise and accurate profile of Mary's abductor, I have to remember he may just as well have been a North Carolinian as a Georgian and he may have had ties to Mary from her college or high school years.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,630
    You know, I've always thought that the phone calls Mary received before her disappearance were definitely from someone in NC. But after reading through articles again, and thinking of the Diane Shields case, what if both Mary and Diane were seeing or being pursued by the same guy from the bank? Someone who was very powerful and possibly married. When you think about it, it's kind of odd that Mary married Roy Little. Her friends wouldn't attend the wedding because they didn't like him. Mary's parents reportedly got along with him but maybe they just did so because they felt they had to. He was their son-in-law so even if they didn't like him, maybe for the sake of appearances they got along with him. And it all seemed to happen so quickly. As yosande pointed out, the courtship and marriage all took place in less than a year.

    Diane Shields was murdered in May of '67. She was supposed to get married in July of '67.

    Maybe this was some rich, well-connected, guy, as ncthom suggested, and he was from the bank. Possibly Mary married Roy Little to escape from the relationship. Then Diane takes Mary's place at the bank and she is murdered 2 months before she is supposed to get married. Maybe this guy refused to allow another woman to escape his clutches and get married so he had her murdered before she had a chance to wed someone else.

    The other possibility is, maybe Mary or Diane were NOT actually having a relationship with this individual per se, but were both being pursued fanatically by him and were both refusing to have anything to do with him outside of a few innocent dinner dates. Hence, Mary's quick courtship and marriage to Roy and maybe Diane's engagement too. Maybe they were both afraid of this guy so marriage was, in their mind, a way to get away from him. I don't know the circumstances surrounding Diane's engagement or fiance, if it happened as fast as Mary's or not.

    This all just occurred to me when I read one of the articles that yosande posted and I realized that Diane's wedding was just 2 months away from when she was murdered. I had read that before but had completely forgotten about it. I could be wrong, but there are too many coincidences connecting Mary's disappearance and Diane's murder to ignore them completely.
    Last edited by MaryLiz; 03-04-2009 at 11:13 PM. Reason: correction

Page 5 of 24 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 15 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. NJ NJ - Mary Agnes Klinsky, 18, Asbury Park, 16 September 1965
    By JusticeWillBeServed in forum Resolved Cold Cases
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-02-2017, 07:36 PM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-06-2015, 04:46 AM
  3. MI MI - Mary Jean McLaughlin, 27, Lake Odessa, 1965
    By alllads in forum 1960's Missing
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-05-2014, 06:43 AM
  4. GA GA - Mary Phagan, 13, Atlanta, 26 April 1913
    By robertwindsor in forum Cold Cases
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-24-2011, 12:33 PM
  5. Mary Travers of Peter, Paul and Mary dead at 72
    By DollyPardonMe in forum Celebrity and Entertainment News
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-19-2009, 11:22 AM

Tags for this Thread