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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokeechic View Post
    Can you explain a little more the difference and what you think Todd is? Also could you define the acornyms you are using. Thanks so much. Learning a lot !!!!

    Im still learning about these mental health issues, particularly due to my child. He has sensory processing disorder, anxiety, ADHD, oppositional defiance/mood disorder. I do thinknits genetic bc his father has these plus narcissitic personality disorder. Hes taking medications and therapy and the symtpoms have all but disappeared, minus occasional issues. Hes much happier and so am i!!!! I hope when hes an adult he will continue to be succesful in managing it on his own. I firmly believe in nurture over nature.
    I'm sorry about the difficulties that your child and your family are going through. It is not an easy path.
    Sociopaths will have a conscience (it's just a weak one). Sociopaths aren't very good at playing along with others. They can be killers but don't have to be. They're more hot-headed.
    Psychopaths do not have a conscience. They are better at mimicking and making people like them. They can be killers but don't have to be. More cold-hearted.
    Let me live, so when it's time to die, even the Reaper cries. . . ~ RHCP

    (Unless there's a link, it's just a my own 2.)

  2. #62
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    One thing I do believe is that empathy can't be taught. The individual might learn how to fake it by mimicking others but true empathy can't be taught. I do think there is a part of their brain that just doesn't function like normal people do. They do not have the moral compass. They don't care about right and wrong. They only care about what THEIR needs are and do what it takes to get their way. They do not care about anyone else but themselves. They can fake it damn well though. The only regret he has is he got caught. He's a true monster.
    "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." Albert Einstein

    Everything I write is my very own opinion unless I give a link. I can and will change my mind when the evidence leads me in another direction.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PositiveLight View Post
    Many kids coming from abusive homes do not go on to become a serial killer.
    No, but unfortunately, many of them continue the cycle of violence or develop disorders. He's responsible alright. But enablers can facilitate a whole other can or worms sometimes, and it can often start with narcissistic figures in their early lives. And mimicry (product of something as little as receiving cyclical verbal agitation during early development) is more common than the born psychopath. Besides which, he did not seem to possess conduct disorder, he has borderline apparently, which is a rage-fueled disorder which often does stem from neglect/abuse - a physical component (I personally see the ADHD, depression, and psychopathy but I'm not a clinician, so..). Well, I'll just leave it at that... it's really up for interpretation and some type of formal look into his life we'll probably never have (and honestly at this point, I personally don't care to have, as he's yes, fully responsible.

    Personal belief is he is not a product of his own design and poor supervision is definitely enough to 'strengthen' any genetic disorder. I wouldn't want him around my neighborhood.
    Last edited by b_lab7410; 11-08-2016 at 12:55 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PositiveLight View Post
    One thing I do believe is that empathy can't be taught. The individual might learn how to fake it by mimicking others but true empathy can't be taught. I do think there is a part of their brain that just doesn't function like normal people do. They do not have the moral compass. They don't care about right and wrong. They only care about what THEIR needs are and do what it takes to get their way. They do not care about anyone else but themselves. They can fake it damn well though. The only regret he has is he got caught. He's a true monster.
    .
    Agree. You can spend every dime you have and if your loved one doesn't have empathy, there's nothing you can do to buy it for them. No amount of love, nor counseling, nor 504 plans, nor private schools, can change a kid with a conduct disorder, either, unless they get tired of the results of their actions, and modify their own behavior accordingly. Then it's them making the choice. They are still in control. They only do it for themselves. Just like an alcoholic gets sober. Thankfully, mine has just about come around to tiring of the negative consequences. I still get a sinking feeling when an unknown number shows up on the phone though.
    Let me live, so when it's time to die, even the Reaper cries. . . ~ RHCP

    (Unless there's a link, it's just a my own 2.)

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by b_lab7410 View Post
    A little confused, while he may *seem to dote on his mother a bit, there were posts where he claimed he was beaten by the mother, mother's new husband and his natural father.

    Either way, he implied there was much neglect and/or abuse for any circumstance which they perceived as "wrong" or 'unmasculine.' The only example I recall specifically was the comment about "putting a glass down too hard."

    IMO, these are the types of comments that are often given by children from dysfunctional homes, their recall memory simultaneously reflects self-blame and self-deprecation. The language is consistent with their remarkably lackadaisical attitude and conveys their avoidance at remarking punitively at the provider(s) violently disrupting their boundaries. I think it's fair to say this is reflected back by their lack of empathy towards any of their own future victims and further contributes at dehumanizing/violating them.

    I only state any of this as I kept seeing the comment about being unruly in nursery and thought to myself, well gee, of course! you can neglect basic human child care at that age (the younger you do so, the more behavioral issues you'll have at early development - you'd be amazed at what foster care/group homes have stories about at the earliest of these kids upbringings! And they do lash out!). They are so quick to blame it on genetics, meanwhile, we are not entirely able to rule about social environments. Psychologists have not definitively stated those *possible* brain abnormalities are really responsible for anti-social behavior. The prison inmates have all types of stories of anti-social upbringing, narcissism, and neglect, yet their parents don't get researched. Those whom bring up these individuals rarely have a complete story, IMO, there are huge gaps, too many notions of pity and helplessness due to tantrums (meanwhile there are no psychological or medical evalulations claiming things were going on at home - possibly because the child would reveal someone is harming them and doctors are lead to reporting it to the police?? Also, the parents co-workers, interview them, close co-workers know all, IMO), and at this point it goes to say the prisoner is at an ends financially - creating a conflict of interest in regards to blaming anyone of early authority in their life (they'll need canteen $$). Lashing out as an infant can also be a response of not having ones basic needs met for food, diaper changes, abusive intolerance, etc etc. Anyhow, at junctions like these I am always hesitant to strictly rely upon the 'helpless mother's' allegations of sudden bouts of childhood anger. There weren't any doctors reports or psychological notes about his early development so.. They should 'vet them' before we can fairly judge whom or what is culpable in creating this monster, IMO. Just my two cents

    At one point, Todd was just a child, I think it's entirely plausible if circumstances were different, we'd see a different adult human. Children exhibiting irritability can be provided with care, proper medication, and/or receive coping techniques. This isn't even someone with an intelligence deficit here. Truth is, there are psychopaths out there that haven't and will not murder anyone - they've been brought up will so this can be a major factor. Their adult brain scans just happen to reveal they're psychopathic.

    Just a side note - kids in school I can recall from back then, any of the teens with 'anger issues,' pretty much always had a bad family home life. I suppose the extraordinary example exists, I just find the 'born psychopath' bit fantasized a bit by some parents. It's a method to absolve them much of the time, IMO, I've seen foster families do this all the time.
    Yes yes yes! So agree with you!

  6. #66
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    You know I was just thinking about how little experience he had with females....He had to trick a girl (a year younger) into coming outside (under pretense of meeting with an ex-boyfriend) and forcing her by gunpoint into having a sexual experience with him. Then he spends the next 14yrs locked up with males. He enters the world at 30yrs old and what skills does he have?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by b_lab7410 View Post
    Yes, but I believe the most recent material out there basically just classifies psychopathy as an even worse of the sociopath. All of us are a little sociopathic, normal human condition. Is not the basis of conduct disorder, that one can 'grow out of it.' I believe that's their way of saying, they can get past possible impairment due to growth, learning, time, nurture, medication, etc etc. Those whom just make mistakes, except these are mistakes that can involve hurting animals, violent attacks resulting in arrest, burglary. I mean, honestly, growing out of or being medicated from what sounds like neurological and possibly environmental problems is one thing, but lack of empathy still seems present. That'll just have to be anyone's take on it, because I would imagine unless those scientists took brain scans, it's not really distinguishable from the real thing in an adult. I mean, the treatment and behavior are similar.
    BBM
    They don't grow out of it. They tire of the negative impacts that their actions have on them. If they finally get that authority is not just for other people and it's uncomfortable for them when they defy authority, then they can make a conscious decision to change their behavior and adapt. If they don't make this adaption by around age 30 then it's highly unlikely that they ever will. It is found more in males than females. I've know people who were brought up in horrible childhood circumstances yet didn't turn out to be a TK. People know right from wrong at an early age. They make their own choices.
    Let me live, so when it's time to die, even the Reaper cries. . . ~ RHCP

    (Unless there's a link, it's just a my own 2.)

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsd1200 View Post
    .
    Agree. You can spend every dime you have and if your loved one doesn't have empathy, there's nothing you can do to buy it for them. No amount of love, nor counseling, nor 504 plans, nor private schools, can change a kid with a conduct disorder, either, unless they get tired of the results of their actions, and modify their own behavior accordingly. Then it's them making the choice. They are still in control. They only do it for themselves. Just like an alcoholic gets sober. Thankfully, mine has just about come around to tiring of the negative consequences. I still get a sinking feeling when an unknown number shows up on the phone though.
    *hugs*and prayers!
    "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." Albert Einstein

    Everything I write is my very own opinion unless I give a link. I can and will change my mind when the evidence leads me in another direction.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kat913 View Post
    You know I was just thinking about how little experience he had with females....He had to trick a girl (a year younger) into coming outside (under pretense of meeting with an ex-boyfriend) and forcing her by gunpoint into having a sexual experience with him. Then he spends the next 14yrs locked up with males. He enters the world at 30yrs old and what skills does he have?
    BBM
    Yes, he did that, but he didn't have to. A lot of 15 year old boys do not have any experience with girls and don't hold them at gunpoint, bind them, threaten them with a knife, and then rape them. He set out to do that just because he wanted to. He had no empathy for her afterwards. He did mention that he was hurt by his actions (getting caught and a prison sentence). He'd even thought about it b/c he asked them to give him 12 years instead of 15 so he could still apply to the military when he got out of prison! The most inexperienced dude alive, with a shred of empathy or conscience, would buy a blow up doll before he'd resort to kidnapping women and chaining them in a trailer.
    Let me live, so when it's time to die, even the Reaper cries. . . ~ RHCP

    (Unless there's a link, it's just a my own 2.)

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMSHood View Post
    I am thinking the same thing too.

    Todd Kohlhepp has shades of Eric Harris, Andrew Cunanan, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, and Elliot Rodger. I can also see Jerry Sandusky, Lori Drew, and Jodi Arias as well.

    Sandusky is not an injustice collector, unlike the rest. I would not be surprised if Kohlhepp is a very negative person and a constant complainer. Kohlhepp is a very angry person and is consumed by anger, like all of them excluding Sandusky. Kohlhepp lives a life of resentment at everything that in his world wrongs him. Rodger, Drew, and Arias have more pent up anger issues. which is also likely the case with Kohlhepp.

    Rodger is more socially awkward than Kohlhepp. Kohlhepp is not as socially awkward.

    Cunanan, Rodger, Arias, and Drew are more driven by extreme envy of others. Harris was known to be envious of others. Not much is known of Kohlhepp is consumed by envy, which is possible.

    Sandusky, Cunanan, Harris, Ramirez, Bundy, Arias, Rodger, and Drew are deceptive and manipulative in nature. That is how they manage to get their victims. They are pathological liars.

    Kohlhepp likely feared rejection and abandonment, which is the case with Arias and Drew. Like them, Kohlhepp thought about rejection and kidnapping and killing people would stop his fear of rejection. The sense of abandonment fueled his resentment, which impacted his psyche.

    Kohlhepp is likely a megalomaniac as he is grandiose and highly narcissistic. Sandusky, Cunanan, Harris, Ramirez, Bundy, and Rodger are extreme megalomaniacs, especially Sandusky, Harris, and Rodger. Arias showed some level of megalomania, but she has more of a huge ego who looks for respect. Drew has a huge ego, but looks to be accepted and liked. The rest want to be respected and even feared.

    Many have criminal history, like Harris, Bundy, Ramirez, Cunanan, and Sandusky. Arias had history of drug use, which caused conflict with her parents. Not much is known about Drew's past.
    Eric Harris. Yes, I can very much see the similarities there...

    I believe Harris' father was in the military, IIRC. TKs evaluation records mentioned his biological father having some military background as well. (I don't think it was extensive though.) Even TK himself indicated he wanted to pursue a career in aeronautics or the military. Perhaps his obsession with weapons stems from an unfulfilled dream of being a soldier someday.

    Regardless.... Eric Harris, nail on the head. Megalomaniac who hates the world, and most of the people in it, in general. He thinks his dark humor is hilarious. He is above and beyond everything and everyone. There is nothing wrong with him, yet everything wrong with everyone else. He feels personally slighted and offended about the most insignificant things because in his head whatever it was is always about him.

    And, Bingo was his name-o.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokeechic View Post
    I agree with you. I personally believe that nurture plays a much larger role over nature. I think Todd was severely neglected as a baby and toddler by his narcissistic or codependent mother and clearly psycho dad... they both failed him. He may have inherited certain traits but remaining in that environment allowed those traits to become habits and ingrained into his personality. Furthermore, i believe that if he was removed from that environment at an early age and lived with a family who nurtured him properly and loved him and showed him empathy, compassion, love, and forgiveness, he might have been able to harness some of his bad traits and with proper education, therapy and medication, he may have been a functioning, well socialized and decent member of society. But his parents failed him miserably. In the end, they will not pay for their grievous mistakes... and yes he does deserve the harshest penalty possible. I know some will disagree with me. But i am just posting my opinion.

    I am raising a child with some issues. His father is a diagnosed narcissitic personality disorder among other things. He had me fooled for sure. But i am literally doing everything i can to make sure my child is raised with love, therapy and proper medication. I dont want him to grow up like his dad or worse, turn into a sociopathic or psychopathic murderer. And while he was exhibiting some similarities of his father, the last 2 yrs we have overcome a lot and hes doing much better. So i truly believe nurture is critical and can overturn nature. :-) thank you for reading. Ill go back to lurking. Love reading everyones theories. Love yall!
    I have to agree with so much of what you said.

    Without knowing what happened even in the womb we cannot know about how the nuturing aspect might have made a huge difference. For him to be declared bad from 15 months old says something about the pregnancy and from birth forward. Maybe no mother or father bonding occured. This is also key. Those 9 months in the womb are also critical and if the outside atmosphere negative... We know not a whole lot about the adult figures in his young life but what we have heard and read is scarey. Even though yes he has done some very bad stuff I feel bad that he was lost long ago.

    I wish you so much success in your precious endeavor to provide the very best for your son and with lots of love.

    I too thank everyone in this particular thread. You have done some excellent observations. I have such a hard time believing there is not one good thing....maybe providing this girl with finances to assist her in her growth in life is actually a good thing. I want to hang onto that due to the horrific nature of what he has done.

  12. #72
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    O/T I apologize for skipping through to post this...probably someone has already expressed this, sorry.

    Please, if you are on the side of "he became a monster because of his childhood," please understand that there are those of us who raised our children the best we could, with no abuse, either physical or mental, who still ended up raising a child with mental issues. My daughter has diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder, among other issues. She is also convinced that my hubby beat her as a child, that he has several DUI's (he's never even been pulled over), and other scenarios that simply DID NOT HAPPEN - not even close. She was spanked a few times for things like stealing and hiding my wedding ring and a cellphone at age 8-9. She swears to this day she doesn't remember ever hiding the ring under my bed or hiding the cellphone in her closet (we only have one child, so it had to be her unless it was a poltergeist or something.) You can razz me about the spankings if you want to, but they were normal spankings, not beatings. She's our biological child and we've never separated, so I know how she was raised - and yet - here she is in her mid twenties, kinda mentally ill. We're about as middle class normal as you can get. I mean, we don't even argue much; we "discuss" issues. haha.

    My point is, if you're going to theorize about how a mentally ill person is created, please have a little compassion for parents like me. I really, really do appreciate the fact that we can all speak our minds here on WS, but I'm not sure I can keep reading this particular thread because it just breaks my heart and makes me feel like a failure.

  13. #73
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    Please don't let this thread make you feel like a failure. We are discussing TK in particular. If you read through the documents released regarding his crime when he was young, you will see that he comes from a very dysfunctional family, and while it seems some of his issues are just who he is, it's hard to ignore his upbringing as likely exacerbating the problems.

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlkMtnGirl View Post
    O/T I apologize for skipping through to post this...probably someone has already expressed this, sorry.

    Please, if you are on the side of "he became a monster because of his childhood," please understand that there are those of us who raised our children the best we could, with no abuse, either physical or mental, who still ended up raising a child with mental issues. My daughter has diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder, among other issues. She is also convinced that my hubby beat her as a child, that he has several DUI's (he's never even been pulled over), and other scenarios that simply DID NOT HAPPEN - not even close. She was spanked a few times for things like stealing and hiding my wedding ring and a cellphone at age 8-9. She swears to this day she doesn't remember ever hiding the ring under my bed or hiding the cellphone in her closet (we only have one child, so it had to be her unless it was a poltergeist or something.) You can razz me about the spankings if you want to, but they were normal spankings, not beatings. She's our biological child and we've never separated, so I know how she was raised - and yet - here she is in her mid twenties, kinda mentally ill. We're about as middle class normal as you can get. I mean, we don't even argue much; we "discuss" issues. haha.

    My point is, if you're going to theorize about how a mentally ill person is created, please have a little compassion for parents like me. I really, really do appreciate the fact that we can all speak our minds here on WS, but I'm not sure I can keep reading this particular thread because it just breaks my heart and makes me feel like a failure.
    Don't. You know your child and all you have done for her. I don't believe anyone can sit behind a screen or in a doctor's office and know what you and your child have gone through. There is no one size fits all when it comes to the human mind. Don't let people wanting to put tidy labels on things make you feel less than. Your words show you care, you tried and are still trying. That's all any of us can do.


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by b_lab7410 View Post
    Well she was saying he was a big problem, yet used those years he was left out in the wind, as an example to the judge (any normal person would look at it as, wow, yup, why am I listening to you/mother about this then?)... IMO, she as in as much denial and just as unbelievable as TK would be in this case. Yes, killers lie about things. But something the majority of them relate to with vivid details is receiving training in violence/mimicry of hostility to appease guardian -stories of neglect/abuse (which is why I stated those comments - prior to finding KB btw, seemed to resonate as a point of conflict to genetics-only violence).

    I'm probably rehashing that here, but anyway, it's really something I've personally seen in cases where there seems to be such contradicting information when you're investigating the biological parents prior to foster adoption. It's a tough choice, do you let your kid out there? Or do you take him to be institutionalized? Would he have raped someone in institution? IMO, you have to take the risk, or else you're risking others. Abandonment wasn't the option either way. And if you called the police enough, did she even try? Talk to doctors? My point was either way, these stories are incomplete, most often the environment for abuse are there, it's not as simple as the story we're given by the parents - they are in the news with people contacting them oft times left and right, they have self-interest at preserving their reputations, let alone their privacy. They really aren't going to let you perceive them as anything other than a victim themselves regardless of what happened, they are prepared with what to say when they give reporters their comments. I also find that as abuse/neglect parents age, they tend to rewrite their physical history with their children. Even - if - it's - on -record!
    great post......google an interesting article, the psychology of the serial killer. it fits a lot of details about tk and his history. psychopathy can show up as early as 2 yrs. old and this theory says it begins with the mother...

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