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  1. #1
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    What do you think the Ramsey's original plan was...

    I think the R's plan changed as the morning progressed. What do you think was the Ramseys original plan was while they were staging the crime scene and writing the RN?

  2. #2
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    I cannot wait to hear other ideas!
    They had no clue the cops would camp out. They would go on with their plans & would dispose of the body. Incredibly I think they figured the cops would leave & they'd carry on with their plans. Sorta a 'keep in touch' while they flew out.
    The fact that this was their desire is just so incriminating and disgusting. And so so sad for JBR

  3. #3
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    Oh BTW: I do not think a whole lot of 'staging' was done. I think the level of the horrific attack she sustained from BR left them no other recourse but to feign a kidnapping (hard enough to have your child a killer but a sadistic psychopath too?). So, yes, they wrote the ransom note but other staging wasn't staging - the garrote etc. They found her like that.

  4. #4
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    I'm not convinced there was much of a plan. And I'm not convinced both of them were involved in it originally. For now, my theory is that BDI (head trauma, molestation, and ligature strangulation). Then PR discovered it and did the staging and undoing (cords on the wrists, tape to the mouth, hiding the corpse, blanket and possibly nightgown), then went upstairs and wrote the RN, then notified JR. He might have had a hint when he recognized PR's handwriting. There may have been an exchange of words.
    Then came the 911 call. JR is brooding and distancing himself from PR throughout the morning. He may have started trying to piece it together. Whether he found the corpse when he went missing during that 80 minutes or not is up for debate. But he became complicit in the crime at some point either way. So, after, I think JR just wanted to get the hell out of Dodge at that point. I don't know if he was even thinking, or just reacting.
    It seems to me that JR would not have had anything to do with that RN. He would have vetoed the $118K as being too obvious and far too little of an amount. He would have insisted that it be brief and to the point. He would have advised against any use of the silly phraseology that was scattered all throughout.

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    Posts are my opinion, based in part on fact, and are not for publication.
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  5. #5
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    The plan was to cover up a murder with a fake kidnapping story and a staged crime scene. They didn't plan for a situation where LE would not find the body right away. They didn't plan for detailed questions which is why their memories were vague and changing.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afterimage View Post
    I think the R's plan changed as the morning progressed. What do you think was the Ramseys original plan was while they were staging the crime scene and writing the RN?
    I don't know if there was a "plan" beyond "throw enough crap at the wall and some of it is bound to stick."

    But let me lay this on you guys. If the original idea was to get rid of her body, why did they not do that? My take is that Patsy would not have allowed it. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise: they figured that with her in the house, anything of theirs can be explained. I still question whether they intended the body to be found or if they figured the cops would see the RL and start searching elsewhere. When they didn't, I think JR got major cold feet and when the opportunity arose, he took a witness to see him mess up the crime scene. As Plan Bs go, it was a pretty good one, all things considered.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  7. #7
    Hmmm... good question!

    As for Patsy, I'm almost certain she intended to frame the housekeeper from the get-go, hence her placing the ransom note on the spiral staircase where the maid always left things. I think maybe they planned for John to remove the body in the basement suitcase ("adequate size attache") and dump it somewhere while picking up the ransom money. After that? Who knows. By the morning when police had arrived, the plans changed. The body was in rigor mortis and wouldn't fit in the suitcase, which could account for John's distressed mood after he disappeared for an hour. (Imagine trying to stuff your dead daughter's corpse into a suitcase. Ugh).

    They probably assumed law enforcement would just leave when they didn't find her on the property or get a call from the kidnappers. Then they'd fly out of state on their private plane, lawyer up and let it unfold naturally. Someone would eventually smell/find the body in the home and they'd dummy up. Heck, maybe they planned to transport the body in the suitcase via their plane to another state to dispose of it?

    One thing is certain: they couldn't have known how big the story was going to get and how many eyes would be on them at the time. We have to look at it from that vantage point. The internet was in its infancy and we didn't even have 24-hour news cycles like we do now. The Rams were used to controlling situations and probably assumed they could manipulate the police and fool friends in order to sweep it under the rug. Little did they know, the national and international media would be on their a**es like the LAPD on that white Bronco.

    Obviously, all MOO.
    Last edited by Occams Razor; 11-08-2016 at 04:51 AM.

  8. #8
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    (Interesting, subscribing)
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occams Razor View Post
    Hmmm... good question!

    As for Patsy, I'm almost certain she intended to frame the housekeeper from the get-go, hence her placing the ransom note on the spiral staircase where the maid always left things. I think maybe they planned for John to remove the body in the basement suitcase ("adequate size attache") and dump it somewhere while picking up the ransom money. After that? Who knows. By the morning when police had arrived, the plans changed. The body was in rigor mortis and wouldn't fit in the suitcase, which could account for John's distressed mood after he disappeared for an hour. (Imagine trying to stuff your dead daughter's corpse into a suitcase. Ugh).

    They probably assumed law enforcement would just leave when they didn't find her on the property or get a call from the kidnappers. Then they'd fly out of state on their private plane, lawyer up and let it unfold naturally. Someone would eventually smell/find the body in the home and they'd dummy up. Heck, maybe they planned to transport the body in the suitcase via their plane to another state to dispose of it?

    One thing is certain: they couldn't have known how big the story was going to get and how many eyes would be on them at the time. We have to look at it from that vantage point. The internet was in its infancy and we didn't even have 24-hour news cycles like we do now. The Rams were used to controlling situations and probably assumed they could manipulate the police and fool friends in order to sweep it under the rug. Little did they know, the national and international media would be on their a**es like the LAPD on that white Bronco.

    Obviously, all MOO.
    There would have been DNA evidence if JR had tried to put her body in the suitcase. Maybe it happened, but we didn't get any information about it.

    I do believe they were trying to blame others from the start, thus, the amount of the ransom and where the note was found. Very treacherous people. The letter had to be that long in order to explain why the body was going to be found in the house. They had disobeyed the kidnappers and so she had to be killed, but they weren't really thinking clearly, because why would the kidnappers leave the body IN the house? It doesn't make any sense, but they got a free pass from the BPD out of deference to their perceived wealth and status.

    Whatever they attempted to do, it worked beautifully. They got to get Burke out of the house right away, without any questioning from police, the better to protect him in case he bragged about what had happened, "I know what happened to her." And then once the body was "found," they too, got to leave the house, going behind their wall of lawyers, never to be truly interrogated again.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I don't know if there was a "plan" beyond "throw enough crap at the wall and some of it is bound to stick."

    But let me lay this on you guys. If the original idea was to get rid of her body, why did they not do that? My take is that Patsy would not have allowed it. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise: they figured that with her in the house, anything of theirs can be explained. I still question whether they intended the body to be found or if they figured the cops would see the RL and start searching elsewhere. When they didn't, I think JR got major cold feet and when the opportunity arose, he took a witness to see him mess up the crime scene. As Plan Bs go, it was a pretty good one, all things considered.
    I was thinking the same thing. If the original plan was to get rid of the body, they would have just gotten rid of the body. It's not like there was anything that was stopping, and they had an attached garage to the house. They could have just disposed of the body in the middle of the night, got back home, then called the police.

    Now I'm beginning to think why they didn't just do this in the first place. Why go through all this trouble? You still could have staged the kidnapping. Was a proper burial the priority? Even at the risk of getting caught?

    I also wonder if at some point, the body wasn't in the crawl space of the basement. This would have been the more logical place to hide a body, if you didn't want it to be found. I wonder if the body was moved while the cops where there (upstairs). Or if the wine cellar was chosen because it was perceived to be more "air-tight" to hide any smell.
    Last edited by Userid; 11-08-2016 at 12:03 PM.


  11. #11
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    If it wasn't for the (farfetched) ransom note then I think the police would have found her body because there would have been a thorough search of the house.

    I have changed my mind several times about the scenario. Lately I have been pondering whether J.R. was aware of anything before he saw the r.n.

    I think that possibly PR found the body, panicked and wrote the long r.n. I think that J.R. may not have had anything to do with it. When Patsy showed him the
    r.n. then he insisted on calling the police immediately.

    The first time J.R. "disappeared" was possibly when he located the body for the first time and he returned looking "distressed". I think he figured it out quickly enough.

    Just my opinion of the day. My opinion may change and likely will!

    Until those Grand Jury findings and all of the evidence they saw/heard is unsealed, it's difficult (for me anyway !)

    Phoning people to come over was an idea that worked for the R's - create confusion and distraction. Police had to take the possibility of a kidnapping seriously so
    that is why the house was not thoroughly searched. The r.n. and the confusion with people coming and going was a bizarre idea - and it ultimately worked.
    "In separateness lies the world’s greatest misery; in compassion lies the world’s true strength."

    - Buddha

  12. #12
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    I have never believed John was part of the staging, largely because I don't think that ludicrous RN would have been used. I also think his behavior that morning, admitting he had broken that window the previous summer, his coldness to Patsy, his disappearance for so long, all point to someone that was not in on the cover up at that point. I think as soon as he saw the RN, he knew it was Patsy that had written it and therefore knew something was terribly wrong (beyond the obvious), but did not fully understand the whole picture.

    As for their plan, I don't really think there was one. I am one of the few left that still leans more to PDI than BDI. But, I think it was a moment of rage that she deeply regretted instantly. But, self preservation came first.

    My guess is that she was sort of throwing everything against the wall, not really sure what might stick. She posed it as a sex crime, because, even if you are unaware that the parents are always suspects, you obviously know if your daughter dies from a blow to the head, they certainly will be. Then she decided to try the RN. Maybe in her hysteria, she actually thought if it was a kidnapping the house would never be searched. Or maybe she knew it would and thought it would just be considered a kidnapping gone bad.

    As amazing as it seems to me, some people, including members of LE bought that exact theory. Go figure.

    I think there are a couple of reasons why she wouldn't have just left in the middle of the night and disposed of the body. One, is obviously you risk being seen. A neighbor could have easily observed the car coming or going. Someone could also see you disposing of the body. The third risk is that John would wake up and realize she wasn't in the house. She may have thought she could mislead him as well as the police.

    Finally, and I realize this will sound weird considering I think she caused the death, but Patsy was a religious woman. Abandoning your daughters body and never being able to bury it may have mattered to her.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by zencompass View Post
    If it wasn't for the (farfetched) ransom note then I think the police would have found her body because there would have been a thorough search of the house.

    I have changed my mind several times about the scenario. Lately I have been pondering whether J.R. was aware of anything before he saw the r.n.

    I think that possibly PR found the body, panicked and wrote the long r.n. I think that J.R. may not have had anything to do with it. When Patsy showed him the
    r.n. then he insisted on calling the police immediately.

    The first time J.R. "disappeared" was possibly when he located the body for the first time and he returned looking "distressed". I think he figured it out quickly enough.

    Just my opinion of the day. My opinion may change and likely will!

    Until those Grand Jury findings and all of the evidence they saw/heard is unsealed, it's difficult (for me anyway !)

    Phoning people to come over was an idea that worked for the R's - create confusion and distraction. Police had to take the possibility of a kidnapping seriously so
    that is why the house was not thoroughly searched. The r.n. and the confusion with people coming and going was a bizarre idea - and it ultimately worked.
    But why, if JR found JonBenet in the basement, would he not have called police to her location immediately? If he didn't know what had happened, why would he play along and not just cooperate fully with police in the first place?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occams Razor View Post
    Hmmm... good question!

    As for Patsy, I'm almost certain she intended to frame the housekeeper from the get-go, hence her placing the ransom note on the spiral staircase where the maid always left things. I think maybe they planned for John to remove the body in the basement suitcase ("adequate size attache") and dump it somewhere while picking up the ransom money. After that? Who knows. By the morning when police had arrived, the plans changed. The body was in rigor mortis and wouldn't fit in the suitcase, which could account for John's distressed mood after he disappeared for an hour. (Imagine trying to stuff your dead daughter's corpse into a suitcase. Ugh).

    They probably assumed law enforcement would just leave when they didn't find her on the property or get a call from the kidnappers. Then they'd fly out of state on their private plane, lawyer up and let it unfold naturally. Someone would eventually smell/find the body in the home and they'd dummy up. Heck, maybe they planned to transport the body in the suitcase via their plane to another state to dispose of it?

    One thing is certain: they couldn't have known how big the story was going to get and how many eyes would be on them at the time. We have to look at it from that vantage point. The internet was in its infancy and we didn't even have 24-hour news cycles like we do now. The Rams were used to controlling situations and probably assumed they could manipulate the police and fool friends in order to sweep it under the rug. Little did they know, the national and international media would be on their a**es like the LAPD on that white Bronco.

    Obviously, all MOO.
    If RDI, and I am leaning that way, I agree with your theory that JBR was supposed to be in that suitcase and dumped either on the way to get the ransom money or on the way home. I wonder why there was a rush to do all of this that morning. I know they were getting ready to go to MIchigan to meet with JR's kids for a second Christmas, but someone could have delayed it by a day, saying someone had a virus or something along those lines. What was the hurry?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullmoon View Post
    If RDI, and I am leaning that way, I agree with your theory that JBR was supposed to be in that suitcase and dumped either on the way to get the ransom money or on the way home. I wonder why there was a rush to do all of this that morning. I know they were getting ready to go to MIchigan to meet with JR's kids for a second Christmas, but someone could have delayed it by a day, saying someone had a virus or something along those lines. What was the hurry?
    Quote Originally Posted by fullmoon View Post
    If RDI,someone had a virus or something along those lines. What was the hurry?
    This is one of the main reasons I think at least up to a point, PR was in this all by herself. She couldn't delay the trip because she'd have to explain missing JonBenet to John.

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