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  1. #61
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    Oakland Fire Chief Teresa Deloach Reed said :

    "We do not inspect buildings, we inspect businesses," Reed said during a press conference. "There were no indications this was an active business."

    WTH???

    The fire chief said the warehouse wasn't on the department's list of businesses to inspect because no one ever applied for permits to occupy the building.

    That is just too govermenty for me! Cops eat at Wnedys. Firemen probably also. How on earth can anyone , with credibility, claim that for 8 years or whatever, human beings were not inside?

    Personally. I would prefer to own it not come up with inane statements like above - that is absurd.

    Folks with kids want the child to own that they got in the cookie jar when they were not supposed to.

    Come in officials - your looking more and more like idiots - which is becoming more and more insulting considering your endless promises to get to the bottom of this.

    ...... Almena, the sometime photographer who rented the warehouse and sublet it to artists, has not responded to emails or calls by The AP to phone numbers associated with him.


    http://www.14news.com/story/34042443/chief-fire-department-unaware-of-oakland-warehouse-concerns

    .
    Forgot his attorney is 81 --this will last until 2019!
    Last edited by CARIIS; 12-19-2016 at 12:46 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    Oakland Fire Chief Teresa Deloach Reed said :

    "We do not inspect buildings, we inspect businesses," Reed said during a press conference. "There were no indications this was an active business."

    WTH???

    The fire chief said the warehouse wasn't on the department's list of businesses to inspect because no one ever applied for permits to occupy the building.

    That is just too govermenty for me! Cops eat at Wnedys. Firemen probably also. How on earth can anyone , with credibility, claim that for 8 years or whatever, human beings were not inside?

    Personally. I would prefer to own it not come up with inane statements like above - that is absurd.

    Folks with kids want the child to own that they got in the cookie jar when they were not supposed to.

    Come in officials - your looking more and more like idiots - which is becoming more and more insulting considering your endless promises to get to the bottom of this.

    ...... Almena, the sometime photographer who rented the warehouse and sublet it to artists, has not responded to emails or calls by The AP to phone numbers associated with him.


    http://www.14news.com/story/34042443/chief-fire-department-unaware-of-oakland-warehouse-concerns

    .
    Forgot his attorney is 81 --this will last until 2019!
    I doubt if anyone has memorized the list of buildings and their uses. So if no permit was applied for, unless someone complained, no one would know.

    Think of buidlings by you. Do you know what the permits are?

  3. #63
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    Bird of Paradise is offline Tell me everything you saw...and what you think it means
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    Oakland Fire Chief Teresa Deloach Reed said :

    "We do not inspect buildings, we inspect businesses," Reed said during a press conference. "There were no indications this was an active business."

    WTH???

    The fire chief said the warehouse wasn't on the department's list of businesses to inspect because no one ever applied for permits to occupy the building.

    That is just too govermenty for me! Cops eat at Wnedys. Firemen probably also. How on earth can anyone , with credibility, claim that for 8 years or whatever, human beings were not inside?

    Personally. I would prefer to own it not come up with inane statements like above - that is absurd.

    Folks with kids want the child to own that they got in the cookie jar when they were not supposed to.

    Come in officials - your looking more and more like idiots - which is becoming more and more insulting considering your endless promises to get to the bottom of this.

    ...... Almena, the sometime photographer who rented the warehouse and sublet it to artists, has not responded to emails or calls by The AP to phone numbers associated with him.


    http://www.14news.com/story/34042443/chief-fire-department-unaware-of-oakland-warehouse-concerns

    .
    Forgot his attorney is 81 --this will last until 2019!
    I have a business in a neighboring city (and own the building it is in) and while the fire inspectors do come yearly to check that fire extinguishers are maintained, if the business isn't open when they stop by, you simply get the bill in the mail. No follow-up visit.
    Last edited by Bird of Paradise; 12-19-2016 at 03:10 AM. Reason: clarity

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post

    was not what he said the first week, he said he was too big - right now is the first time I heard (from you guys!) about his clothes on fire- and I followed this tragedy pretty intensely.
    Snipped for focus. I can't find it now but I saw him interviewed very early on and he mentioned that the friend was large and had injured his ankle.

    He also mentioned how close the fire was; he even turned around and showed that his vest was burned.

    Gives me chills remembering his story.

    ETA: Found the interview. His name is Bob Mule.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...404495506.html
    Last edited by Jax49; 12-19-2016 at 06:01 AM.
    MOO
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jax49 View Post
    Snipped for focus. I can't find it now but I saw him interviewed very early on and he mentioned that the friend was large and had injured his ankle.

    He also mentioned how close the fire was; he even turned around and showed that his vest was burned.

    Gives me chills remembering his story.

    ETA: Found the interview. His name is Bob Mule.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...404495506.html
    Oh, I thought he added that the friend was on fire, which I never heard him say.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    Oh, I thought he added that the friend was on fire, which I never heard him say.
    No, I didn't hear that either. Sorry I misunderstood.
    MOO
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    Reply with Quote is everyone's friend.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    I doubt if anyone has memorized the list of buildings and their uses. So if no permit was applied for, unless someone complained, no one would know.

    Think of buidlings by you. Do you know what the permits are?
    I can not imagine people not knowing that, at times, 25 people were living there, and that they were advertising online for at least two concerts a month!!!!!

    If it were squatters maybe.

    I wonder if a solution might be power company involvement -not to throw anyone out, but can direct where safety inspections are needed.

    I would think that if we looked back at electric bills a spike would have to be observed when 10000 square feet was hooked up to the car place.

    Even at a common sense level boxes don't shower cook eat !!

    I would think the same would apply to water usage.

    Not to kick people out tho- to highlight humans in buildings!!

    All this kicking out people is just moving a problem around solves nothing IMO.

    According to the Fire Protection Research Organization's 2009 Fire Sprinkler Cost Assessment, sprinkler installation costs homebuilders $0.38-$3.66 per sprinklered square foot, with an average cost of $1.61 per sprinklered square foot. For an average 2,200-square-foot home, expect to pay about $3,542.


    communities with no sprinkler ordinance or a recently passed ordinance. Communities with a sprinkler ordinance in place for more than five years tend to experience market acceptance, the Fire Protection Research Organization says, which means increased competition and lower prices.


    • Organization says, which means increased competition and lower prices.
    • The type of piping used in home fire sprinkler systems can significantly affect the cost.

    slab foundations average $0.81 per sprinklered square foot; homes with basement foundations averaged $1.81 per sprinklered square foot; and those with crawl space foundations averaged $0.92 per sprinklered square foot.


    • Communities with sprinkler ordinances typically charge permit and inspection fees. Some communities have flat fees, and others base the fees on square footage or value of the house. Typically, the permit costs are $50-$350, but some communities charge as high as $800 in permit fees.


    http://home.costhelper.com/fire-sprinkler.html#extres6


    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS702US702&ion=1&espv=2&ie=U TF-8#q=cost%20of%20installing%20fire%20sprinker%20sys tem

    Odd ends for Oakland fire law

    Every permit shall also contain an agreement as follows which shall be executed by the permit holder as a condition of issuance:
    "I hereby agree to save, defend, indemnify and keep harmless the City of Oakland and its officials, officers, employees, representatives, agents and volunteers from all actions, claims, demands, litigation, or proceedings, including those for attorneys' fees, against the City in consequence of the granting of this permit or from the use or occupancy of the public right-of-way, public easement, or any sidewalk, street or sub-sidewalk or otherwise by virtue thereof, and will in all things strictly comply with the conditions under which this permit is granted. I further certify that I am the owner of the property involved in this permit or that I am fully authorized by the owner to access the property and perform the work authorized by this permit."establish uniform schedules and rates based upon the type of use of property and the risk classification of the structures or other improvements on, or the use of, the property. The risk classification may include, but need not be limited to, the amount of water required for fire suppression on that property, the structure size, type of construction, structure use, and other factors relating to potential fire and panic hazards and liabilities, the costs of providing the fire suppression by the city to that property, and any other factors which reflect the benefit to the land resulting from the fire suppression, prevention and preparedness services. The assessment shall be related to the benefits to the property assessed.

    https://www.municode.com/library/ca/oakland/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TIT15BUCO_CH15.18FISUPRP RDI





    No code has to be inserted here.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jax49 View Post
    No, I didn't hear that either. Sorry I misunderstood.

    Hi I may have misunderstood it !!

  9. #69
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    Hummm

    Portable Fire Suppression System

    No idea what I am talking about!! But wondered if there was a cheaper way!!



    https://www.narescue.com/media/catal...019_a-full.jpg

    These things ya hang over your stove



    https://www.auto-out.com/

    While i in the "sprinkler " mode it occurred to me, water raining down on your computer, monitor, fan toaster oven anything plugged in ---- water + electricity = sparks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by CARIIS; 12-19-2016 at 07:35 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    So strange. look at some of the stuff ----2 x 4's unscathed


    Derick Ion and Micah Allison IMO need to answer for their actions but I'm afraid they will get away with it, maybe with a fine and some community work, I don't know. The owner may get hit harder but again I don't think she'll see jail time. I'm afraid this is all going to be settled through civil suits. I hope I'm wrong.

    I am with you-it just seems with all the media we would have heard "DI and MA were taken to the police station and questioned at length".

    That would be a big story - but we have not heard that - so does that really mean that it has not happened?

    So maybe nothing will happen for them? How can that be?

    And it is not like we are going to learn "more" about the dangers inside - it's all burnt out. So what does it take to file charges?

    The only thing, I think, left to learn is origin, but that has nothing to do with how quickly it propagated because of the dangers.

    So it goes back to -- maybe no charges criminally?
    I wasn't going to mention this, but since you did CARIIS (hi there!)...

    I spent an absolutely embarrassing amount of time yesterday staring at these photos. What I was staring at, aside from those sad little fire extinguishers on the right, was the unscathed wooden structures. I finally had a light bulb moment! Those were put there after the fire to brace the structure up for safety purposes. If you mentally remove those from the photo, there's nothing left but a gutted building just like I'd imagined. Sorry if I'm pointing out the obvious, I just wasn't getting it.

    As to the rest of your post, and just in general, I haven't been following as close as I did in the beginning. I pop in every day and grow more and more disheartened. Tenants rights, blah blah, that's not our job, blah blah, no one knew this or that, blah blah, and so on. I knew that would happen to some extent, but I've had this horrible feeling from the beginning that no positive changes would come out of this tragedy, and maybe no one would even be punished for it. I'm still hoping, because I want to believe these beautiful people did not die completely in vain, that somehow this will improve the safety of others.

    Because this story hurt my soul so deeply, it's also made me far less patient than usual. I want to see the ball (and some heads!) rolling.

    On a happier note, Happy Holidays everyone. This had made me so thankful that all my loved ones will be present at the festivities this year.


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    I can not imagine people not knowing that, at times, 25 people were living there, and that they were advertising online for at least two concerts a month!!!!!

    If it were squatters maybe.

    I wonder if a solution might be power company involvement -not to throw anyone out, but can direct where safety inspections are needed.

    I would think that if we looked back at electric bills a spike would have to be observed when 10000 square feet was hooked up to the car place.

    Even at a common sense level boxes don't shower cook eat !!

    I would think the same would apply to water usage.

    Not to kick people out tho- to highlight humans in buildings!!

    All this kicking out people is just moving a problem around solves nothing IMO.

    According to the Fire Protection Research Organization's 2009 Fire Sprinkler Cost Assessment, sprinkler installation costs homebuilders $0.38-$3.66 per sprinklered square foot, with an average cost of $1.61 per sprinklered square foot. For an average 2,200-square-foot home, expect to pay about $3,542.


    communities with no sprinkler ordinance or a recently passed ordinance. Communities with a sprinkler ordinance in place for more than five years tend to experience market acceptance, the Fire Protection Research Organization says, which means increased competition and lower prices.


    • Organization says, which means increased competition and lower prices.
    • The type of piping used in home fire sprinkler systems can significantly affect the cost.

    slab foundations average $0.81 per sprinklered square foot; homes with basement foundations averaged $1.81 per sprinklered square foot; and those with crawl space foundations averaged $0.92 per sprinklered square foot.


    • Communities with sprinkler ordinances typically charge permit and inspection fees. Some communities have flat fees, and others base the fees on square footage or value of the house. Typically, the permit costs are $50-$350, but some communities charge as high as $800 in permit fees.


    http://home.costhelper.com/fire-sprinkler.html#extres6


    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS702US702&ion=1&espv=2&ie=U TF-8#q=cost%20of%20installing%20fire%20sprinker%20sys tem

    Odd ends for Oakland fire law

    [FONT="]Every permit shall also contain an agreement as follows which shall be executed by the permit holder as a condition of issuance:[/FONT]
    "I hereby agree to save, defend, indemnify and keep harmless the City of Oakland and its officials, officers, employees, representatives, agents and volunteers from all actions, claims, demands, litigation, or proceedings, including those for attorneys' fees, against the City in consequence of the granting of this permit or from the use or occupancy of the public right-of-way, public easement, or any sidewalk, street or sub-sidewalk or otherwise by virtue thereof, and will in all things strictly comply with the conditions under which this permit is granted. I further certify that I am the owner of the property involved in this permit or that I am fully authorized by the owner to access the property and perform the work authorized by this permit."establish uniform schedules and rates based upon the type of use of property and the risk classification of the structures or other improvements on, or the use of, the property. The risk classification may include, but need not be limited to, the amount of water required for fire suppression on that property, the structure size, type of construction, structure use, and other factors relating to potential fire and panic hazards and liabilities, the costs of providing the fire suppression by the city to that property, and any other factors which reflect the benefit to the land resulting from the fire suppression, prevention and preparedness services. The assessment shall be related to the benefits to the property assessed.

    https://www.municode.com/library/ca/oakland/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TIT15BUCO_CH15.18FISUPRP RDI





    No code has to be inserted here.
    I would guess that most people have no clue about permits. I wouod guess that most people never question if the building they are going into is fire safe. I can say it never has crossed my mind.

    As far as anyone knowing people lived there, why would anyone question the validity of it? Why would anyone wonder? It would never cross my mind nor would I care.

    If I lived in that neighborhood, I would care about the trash, but I would never question if the people had the right to be there. Why would anyone? Most people's lives are filled with trying to live their own life instead of wondering if someone has a permit.

    Really, has anyone wondered about permits where you live?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    MeBeth Othelo?? BUT you must admit you listened, and wanted to hear what he was going to say next - fess up ha!!

    At times he reminded me of Gerry Spence an amazing hom sapian to just "listen" to !!

    At the same time, it kinda fits that Derrick would be "attracted" to his history!!

    So bizarre , I was somewhat relieved when I read that he hired an attorney - it had blown my mind, that in this day and age, dude, (DI)you really are not grasping where this is going

    It was actually scary!!


    I would love to know the exact retain date- was it weeks ago- or did it really take him this long to grasp the enormity of the situation here??

    The steps are just horrible. But for your children - that's an angle that is really a mess IMO.
    Its not like there was a shortage of wood in the place!

    Just the whole thing - who would want to negotiate that shi$ 8 times a day??

    But, when I read that NG knew about what was going on with the power sharing I moved over to the your going to "prison" camp.

    What little I know about this kind of thing- how do lay people play around with main feeds into buildings? I would think power would have to be cut?

    But if your doing the main feed (big buildings - it included both of them) doesn;t that take the power company?
    Several years ago the house next to me was raided for having 700 marijuana plants. The people who set it up somehow cut into the main power to the house and was getting the electricity for free. It was said in the news it could have killed whoever did it. The power was not shut off from the main power pole by the power company. It was live when they did it. The rewired huge power bundles through out the house. The raid involved 20 homes that all did this. The house next door was the last one to be set up. So I guess it can be done but fatal if done wrong. Moo
    Scooby-Doo taught us that the real monsters are Humans.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    I would guess that most people have no clue about permits. I wouod guess that most people never question if the building they are going into is fire safe. I can say it never has crossed my mind.

    As far as anyone knowing people lived there, why would anyone question the validity of it? Why would anyone wonder? It would never cross my mind nor would I care.

    If I lived in that neighborhood, I would care about the trash, but I would never question if the people had the right to be there. Why would anyone? Most people's lives are filled with trying to live their own life instead of wondering if someone has a permit.

    Really, has anyone wondered about permits where you live?
    Good point on a civilian level, my confusion was that "officials" claimed not to know that anyone was there- that just seems hard to grasp

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    Good point on a civilian level, my confusion was that "officials" claimed not to know that anyone was there- that just seems hard to grasp
    Think of how many buildings might be in Oakland. The permits are obtained from a department in the city. Who checks up on the permit holders?

    I was on my zoning board in a town of 2000. We could never keep up with the permits as the zoning administrator was very parttime. The administrator always wanted to check permits, but the time never allowed for it. We have two commercial businesses and one industrial. The rest are home businesses.

    The usual way of discovering problems was if a neighbor complained. Derick told the renters to pretend they did not live there.

    And if someone fights the community rules, it takes forever. Sometimes years. Who would know what goes on inside of a building and why would they even bother unless there was some kind of reported issue?

    (I am beyond freaked out today so I am incredibly crabby and depressed)

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    Think of how many buildings might be in Oakland. The permits are obtained from a department in the city. Who checks up on the permit holders?

    I was on my zoning board in a town of 2000. We could never keep up with the permits as the zoning administrator was very parttime. The administrator always wanted to check permits, but the time never allowed for it. We have two commercial businesses and one industrial. The rest are home businesses.

    The usual way of discovering problems was if a neighbor complained. Derick told the renters to pretend they did not live there.

    And if someone fights the community rules, it takes forever. Sometimes years. Who would know what goes on inside of a building and why would they even bother unless there was some kind of reported issue?

    (I am beyond freaked out today so I am incredibly crabby and depressed)
    Hugs, human. I think you make very good points and I agree with all of them. In a perfect world, there would be perfect compliance with laws and/or perfect enforcement by the government. Obviously that's not happening. Hiring more enforcers costs money and raises taxes...NOBODY wants higher taxes, even to educate children.

    I don't think the Oakland government agencies are making excuses. I think they are keeping it real. Of course they would have wanted to prevent this fire! They aren't evil. But realistically, for many regrettable and understandable reasons, this building went unnoticed. And had the proper processes been started, it would have become a long, drawn out dispute, during which time this fire could have easily happened anyway.

    But people feel better blaming the government that didn't have enough staff to do what was needed to prevent this. No one is the villain here except DIA and MA. They took advantage of the lack of oversight by the owner and the city and built a death trap. There would have been no fire in this warehouse and no deaths without their totally self-centered illegal actions. An empty or properly permitted use of space would not have burned. If the city and owner had intervened, these two would have used every delaying tactic possible had they been inspected and evicted.

    It's a horrible tragedy. I hope it will never happen again. But the changes required to prevent another fire create other problems, as we've discussed on this thread. I hope the city finds the balance. And above all, I hope that DIA and MA are held accountable in criminal and civil court.
    All JMO, MOO, etc.
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