Ok, here I go on the dog again, but I was reading in DOI that Patsy never told the kids that Jacques I was ill. She hid that from the kids and quickly replaced it with another bichon from the pet store that was smaller than Jacques. JB questioned her and said that it looked smaller now. PR told her it was because the dog was sick. I think it just goes to show the character of Patsy. Why not tell them the truth-that Jacques was sick and went to heaven, but we now have a new dog. Patsy knows how to cover things up. Even though this is a minor detail, it could mean a lot.So, JB and Burke never knew that Jacques I had been replaced with Jacques II.
About Jacques again...........
- Thread starter ellen13
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Brefie
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Very good point, ellen13.
Jayelles
New Member
I'm not sure that replacing a deceased pet with a replica is so uncommon. I've done it with goldfish.
There is a sketch in the Vicar of Dibley about this. Dopey Alice declared that she had a childhood pet which lived for decades and which kept dying and coming back to life again looking slightly different each time!
There is a sketch in the Vicar of Dibley about this. Dopey Alice declared that she had a childhood pet which lived for decades and which kept dying and coming back to life again looking slightly different each time!
Moab
Member
I agree... goldfish or any kind of fish, hamsters, gerbils, frogs, etc. often get replaced because it is easier than going through the whole conversation of death especially if the child (or one of the children is very young). My guess would have been that JBR was far more attached to the dog than was Burke (who was probably old enough to understand the switch).Jayelles said:
Seeker
Former Member
I think this is pretty standard for parents to do when their child is as young as JonBenet was when the 1st Jacques died. 5 or 6 is kind of young for a child to comprehend death, esp if you've just escaped it yourself...and you don't want to tell the older child lest he/she tell the younger child.ellen13 said:
Most parents want to spare their child the pain that goes with knowing a much loved pet is dead, never to be seen again.
why_nutt
New Member
Seeker said:
But at that point, JonBenet was already familiar with death and illness. When Jacques I was taken back to the petstore because he was flawed, JonBenet had already been exposed to the death of her beloved sister Beth (in 1992), her great-grandmother Fay Rymer (in 1992), her grandfather Jay Ramsey (in 1992), and her mother's year-long illness and recovery from cancer treatments spanning 1993 to 1994. JonBenet already knew that Beth had died and was not replaced, and she knew that when someone she loves becomes ill, there is a possibility that they may die, as she had to learn from her mother's need to talk about that experience at every opportunity.
And this does not even mention the various pets who had already come before. Burke kept fish in his bedroom, you think JonBenet never saw them go belly-up and have it explained to her that, like Beth, they have gone to heaven? What about the hamster who occupied the hamster cage that fell on JonBenet? That hamster likely died and was not replaced. So what makes Jacques I's illness so special that Patsy needs to stress so often her desire to protect JonBenet from that knowledge? Maybe there is something else to the story of Jacques I that Patsy is embarrassed to confess to.
Seeker
Former Member
Why_nutt, do you really think that JonBenet even remembered anyone who died in 1992? She would only have been 2 (or just under) at the times of those deaths. I doubt she would have comprehended anything related to death at that age...
I also doubt she went to any funerals at that age either, or even if she had been she didn't know what was going on.
And again, illness is not death. The fact that Patsy didn't die but was only "sick" isn't the same thing.
I don't know of any parent that would tell a child under the age of 8-10 or so that their pet had died. Children are often much more attached to their pets than adults realise.
Cats and dogs are able to be hugged and dressed up (although most cats don't like it). Kids bond with these animals much more readily and deeply than they do with fish or hamsters IMO.
I don't know that the Rams ever let JonBenet see any of the fish that had died. For that matter Patsy could just as readily replaced the fish before Burke even woke up to see them.
Hamsters are somewhat resilient to falls of less than 2 feet. There is no way to know if that hamster that was in it's cage/habitrail died without a first hand account.
I also doubt she went to any funerals at that age either, or even if she had been she didn't know what was going on.
And again, illness is not death. The fact that Patsy didn't die but was only "sick" isn't the same thing.
I don't know of any parent that would tell a child under the age of 8-10 or so that their pet had died. Children are often much more attached to their pets than adults realise.
Cats and dogs are able to be hugged and dressed up (although most cats don't like it). Kids bond with these animals much more readily and deeply than they do with fish or hamsters IMO.
I don't know that the Rams ever let JonBenet see any of the fish that had died. For that matter Patsy could just as readily replaced the fish before Burke even woke up to see them.
Hamsters are somewhat resilient to falls of less than 2 feet. There is no way to know if that hamster that was in it's cage/habitrail died without a first hand account.
Linda7NJ
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My son's ferret died when he just turned 4. We were at the emergency vet and the poor thing needed to be put to sleep. My son doesn't know it was put to sleep, he thinks she died while they were trying to save her. He was so devastated the staff at the vets commented they had never seen a child so hysterical and recommended a grief therapist. They wrapped her in a blanket and placed her in a pretty cardboard box and tapped it up for him. He hugged that box all the way home sobbing and he helped bury her.
It was the most heartbreaking experience to watch. I couldn't take it any more and told him about heaven. ( I am an atheist) It helped tremendously! He embraces the concept of heaven and handled his beloved grandfathers death better than anyone else in the family. He has "faith" and believes with all his heart he will see him again and his Pop Pop is not in pain anymore and he's happy for him.
So...long story made short. I see nothing wrong with helping kids understand death when the opportunity presents itself.
It was the most heartbreaking experience to watch. I couldn't take it any more and told him about heaven. ( I am an atheist) It helped tremendously! He embraces the concept of heaven and handled his beloved grandfathers death better than anyone else in the family. He has "faith" and believes with all his heart he will see him again and his Pop Pop is not in pain anymore and he's happy for him.
So...long story made short. I see nothing wrong with helping kids understand death when the opportunity presents itself.
Nuisanceposter
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I've owned several hamsters through the years. They can withstand a fall from four feet up (had them jump out of my hand and hit the floor running) but only live about 18 months - two years.
Whatever her reason was for covering up Jacques I's death, that's what she did. She lied about the death, covered it up and saw nothing wrong with deceiving her daughter. I realize that it isn't the same between a dog and a human child, but the behavior IMO is repeated from Jacques I to JonBenet.
Whatever her reason was for covering up Jacques I's death, that's what she did. She lied about the death, covered it up and saw nothing wrong with deceiving her daughter. I realize that it isn't the same between a dog and a human child, but the behavior IMO is repeated from Jacques I to JonBenet.
why_nutt
New Member
Seeker said:
I am confident JonBenet knew what death was at the ages of two, and three, and four, and five, and six. Keep in mind that her father John worshipped his daughter Beth every day after her death, and worshipped her in an almost literal sense, having kept picture icons of her in his intimate den of his bathroom, and having kept relics of her (her flight wings, her car, her bed, her sorority ring, a poem he wrote to her). JonBenet, being a child, had the virtual job of watching her father and mother live their lives. It was her job, as it is the job of all children, to watch how the adults around her lived their lives, and what things in life mattered to them. Can you have any doubt that John's worship of Beth had some effect on JonBenet, teaching her that a beloved sister of hers used to be alive, and now is gone forever and is in heaven, and that therefore there is such a thing as death, and it is permanent? Do you have any reason to believe that JonBenet should have been taught by Patsy that dogs are exempt from this process, even though they are not?
A mother protecting her child from hurt feelings shows caring and love. It may not be right in everyones mind but again PR is human and allowed to make mistakes.Nuisanceposter said:
Relating it to covering up JBR's death is a s..t...r...e....t.....c....h even for RDI zealots.
Jayelle,Moab and Seeker,
I agree with your posts.
Maybe the timing had a lot to do with it also. It was just after Patsy's illness,and Nedra taking care of the kids. So many changes ... I believe Patsy was just sparing little JonBenet of another sad change. Patsy had no control over what happened to Beth,or her cancer causing her to be bedridden,but with Jacques,there was a way she could shelter JonBenet from the sadness ...right or wrong,that was the way she chose to handle it.
Not all that irresponsible,in my opinion.
I agree with your posts.
Maybe the timing had a lot to do with it also. It was just after Patsy's illness,and Nedra taking care of the kids. So many changes ... I believe Patsy was just sparing little JonBenet of another sad change. Patsy had no control over what happened to Beth,or her cancer causing her to be bedridden,but with Jacques,there was a way she could shelter JonBenet from the sadness ...right or wrong,that was the way she chose to handle it.
Not all that irresponsible,in my opinion.
why_nutt
New Member
Zman said:
Then why did Patsy expose JonBenet to the pageant circuit, where hurt feelings experienced by both children and their parents are common?
why_nutt
New Member
capps said:
Patsy had control over teaching JonBenet how to deal with sad events. It is the responsible thing for a parent to do, to teach a child how to deal with being sad. It is irresponsible to teach a child that no sad things happen, and that being lied to is better in the short run than knowing what is true even when the truth hurts.
JonBenet's killer lied to the world and the world has been hurt by that lie. There is a possibility that that killer is Patsy, and that she is protecting the world from knowing that mothers kill children, by lying to the world. The Jacques incident is evidence that Patsy finds lying and covering up a sad truth easier on her than being truthful and accepting the consequences. Intruder theorists say that a killer practices with small crimes first. Ramsey-did-it theorists have every right to employ that theory in showing that Patsy's lie to JonBenet about Jacques I is practice for lying to the world about JonBenet's death.
Nehemiah
Well-Known Member
When our son's beloved dog died, we were not totally truthful about all the events preceding the death. We looked at it as protecting him from more pain. We didn't stop to analyze if we were doing the right thing, it's just what seemed right to us at the time. Maybe Patsy felt she was doing the right thing--but not giving it much thought, either. Anybody's guess, unless someone here personally knows her and her motivation.
Linda7NJ
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Oh just stop! There is nothing wrong with the pageant circuit. Children compete in all types of things. No one can raise their kid in a bubble .....well unless your the mother from the , mom dead in the freezer story. And I agree the dog thing is a stretch...we have ALL lied to our children on occasion and we felt it was for their own good.why_nutt said:
I am a RDI but PLEASE!:snooty:
I think its each to their own Nehemiah,im 40 and my cat passed not too long ago.I knew he was sick.My hubby found him dead and buried him.I didnt want to know the details.The only problem i have with Patsy and Jaques is that she found him disspossiable[sp]Nehemiah said:
Maikai
New Member
Linda7NJ said:
When JBR and Burke were 3 and 6 respectively, Patsy was diagnosed with Stage 4 ovarian cancer. I doubt the kids were told the absolute truth about the odds.....but even little kids can pick up on things...moods...conversations, and they probably knew something wasn't right. They didn't need to know the first dog died, just to worry their mommy might die too. ie: dog got sick and died.....their mom was sick and would die. Substituting another dog didn't do either of them any harm, and there was no good purpose to serve telling them the truth.
The dog was at the Barnhills a lot anyway, and JBR would visit it there. It had a good home.
txsvicki
Active Member
Maikai said:
I also agree. JonBenet could have started to worry excessively that her mother might die from being sick also if she had to witness the dog getting sicker and sicker and then dying. What I do wonder about is if the male tenant at the Barnhills was thoroughly checked out? The book Death of Innocence has a statement in it that simply says that the tenant came over to the party that night as if he weren't really invited. It says no more about it but I have to wonder about JonBenet going over there alot to see that dog and having some stranger around. I'm no way near wealthy like the Ramseys , but I'd never let one of my kids be around any strangers and really not any neighbors without my being right there.