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  1. #226
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    Sep 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreww View Post
    Interesting concept, however John want wearing the black shirt that day and it wouldn't explain why Patsy was wearing the same outfit. The fact that fibres from both John and Patsy's party outfits were found at the scene suggests that they were both involved prior to waking that morning. My guess would be that by the time they discovered the body, recovered from the initial shock, and decided exactly what they were going to do, quite a bit of time had passed. Maybe they start the actual staging at 3:00 am, leaving them only a little more than a couple of hours to get it done?

    I know you seem to think that the crime scene was actually in JB's bedroom because it was messy, but to me that says the opposite. If they were trying to hide that fact, why not tidy it up? I think the flashlight, aside from being the possible murder weapon, tells us something more. Why was it out in the first place? If BDI it would suggest that he was using it to venture outside the confines of his room, quite possibly to the basement. Kolar believes that the gifts in the WC represented "secret santa" gifts that were to be given to the kids in Michigan, and I tend to agree with him. I think that Burke may have taken JB down there on the pretext of discovering what was in them. The urine stain outside the WC door suggests that that very well could have been where it happened? Why would the parents carry her down to that spot, strangle her, then move her inside that door? I'm not sold.
    andreww,
    The fact that fibres from both John and Patsy's party outfits were found at the scene suggests that they were both involved prior to waking that morning.
    Patently both parents were involved in the staging. What is that mandates the parents were involved much earlier that morning?

    I know you seem to think that the crime scene was actually in JB's bedroom because it was messy
    Not just that it was messy, but that the breakfast bar was left as is, i.e. JonBenet and BR finished up there, and headed upstairs to her bedroom?

    JonBenet's bedroom as the primary crime-scene is is not fixed, as you suggest maybe BR and JonBenet left the breakfast bar and headed down to the basement?

    I'm trying to paint a picture of events before the 911 call, and although the parents carry out some staging, they do not remove forensic evidence, which if they had the full five hours and the case was PDI or JDI, they would?

    If the case was PDI, the only way I can see Patsy redressing JonBenet in Burke's long johns, is if she knowingly wanted to implicate him?

    Otherwise she has the choice to visit JonBenet's bedroom and pick suitable clothes that has JonBenet conventionally dressed.


    Also, according to Kolar, Burke Ramsey was aware of the contents of the partially opened gifts, e.g. size-12's.

    As a theory BDI All explains more forensic evidence than either PDI or JDI.


    .

  2. #227
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    Sep 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreww View Post
    That is why I don't believe that the breakfast bar had much to do with the crime. I think the kids snacked their shortly after they arrived home, and the crime didn't happen until later. The Ramsey's may simply have forgotten about the snack or simply didn't see it as a stumbling block. And it wouldn't have been one if not for that one stolen bight of pineapple.
    andreww,
    ITA. From this you can conclude that the breakfast bar was not the primary crime-scene, otherwise the parent(s) would not have forgotten, and engaged in a cleanup so to remove forensic evidence linking JonBenet to the breakfast bar!

    That in essence really leaves JonBenet's bedroom, Burke's bedroom, or the basement?

    .

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    *snip*If the case was PDI, the only way I can see Patsy redressing JonBenet in Burke's long johns, is if she knowingly wanted to implicate him?*snip*
    Your use of a ? as a final punctuation, imo, indicates you're not sure about this.

  4. #229
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    Sep 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedtea4me View Post
    Your use of a ? as a final punctuation, imo, indicates you're not sure about this.
    icedtea4me,
    Absolutely, its an outside interpretation, one that is valid but lets say represents an outlier.

    This is why I think BDI All, seems to be the best answer we have, i.e. matches more of the evidence than any other theory.

    The best answer against this, is I have not seen all the evidence, and that the case is really PDI, once I see the evidence PDI will explain more than BDI All ever did.

    .

  5. #230
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Denver CO
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    461
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    BoldBear,
    BBM: You really should not be. Without the breakfast bar left as found, we could not link PR or BR to the death of JonBenet.

    Otherwise no breakfast bar artifact means the R's can claim an intruder fed JonBenet the pineapple prior to killing her.

    Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl link her to the breakfast bar, more so does BR's on both the bowl and glass holding the teabag.

    The breakfast bar offers forensic evidence that this was the location JonBenet snacked pineapple, thus demonstrating she was awake after the parents said they placed her sleeping into bed.

    So the breakfast bar suggests that the parents version of events is inconsistent.

    If the case were JDI or PDI and you were intent on staging a fake crime-scene, then at a minimum, you might want to cleanup the primary crime-scene?

    The parents failed to do this, suggesting they were ignorant regarding its importance?

    .
    This is where jargon becomes an issue. I view a breakfast bar as having stools and a counter top. To you, the breakfast bar is the breakfast room with a full sit-down table.

    I have trouble putting too much intelligence upon the person or persons who committed this crime. It's often discussed here how the killer knew what to do ahead of the police. While I believe there was some planning, I don't believe this person was a forensic genius. How did the killer know that LE would screw-up so badly? How could the killer guess that pineapple would be found in JB's duodenum? Once the Ramseys said JB was carried up to bed, they (smartly) stuck with their original story--sound advice of their attorneys. They tried not to deviate from the original stories, but they did.

    Trauma has very odd and opposite effects. During an emergency we become very aware of everything happening around us, but after the trauma is over some people forget what happened while others remember every detail. I don't believe Patsy really forgot every detail she knew about living in the Boulder home. I do believe that the stress and the drugs played games with her memory, but I also believe she conveniently forgot details when she thought it was to her advantage.

    John, on the other hand, is very calculating. It's hard to see him get caught off-guard by questions. He does sometimes changes his reasons of why he did things--the video camera's batteries weren't charged; and then, since Beth died I want to live in the moment--this type of fishtailing drives me crazy. He read to JB that night when she was asleep. Oh, I was misunderstood. I went up and read a little before I went to sleep. The Law and Order gotchas didn't work here. Clunk. Clunk.

    John has a very interesting defense when asked questions: "I didn't read and/or know anything about that." He wants to trace every aspect of the case, hiring an investigative team to find the killer and then doesn't want to know what they found. The easiest way to avoid answering a question is to say you don't know anything about it.

    I don't think the Ramseys thought about the pineapple. Yes, it was an afterthought, but the biggest thing the killer didn't know would happen is what happened with the media. Without the pageant tapes and the media, this would have been a completely different story. Hunter would have been able to do his shoulder shrug and it would have been one of thousands of unsolved child murders. We would have never been introduced to a drugged-up Patsy and a cold and contemptuous John Ramsey--the way he looked at her during that 1st interview.

    The pineapple and the teabag left on the table don't add up to a touchdown. It's an incomplete pass on the first down. The Ramseys outplayed the other team and we're all left complaining about the bad calls and the incompetent refs.

  6. #231
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    3,994
    I've been " with" this case since the beginning. Re: BDI and Burke's behavior post crime.

    One theory early in this thread commented about Patsy getting drugs from Dr. Beouf for herself. What if they were drugs for BURKE? He was a child. He would have been seeing a Pediatrician. Perhaps there were behavioral problems and other disorders manifesting and Patsy was covering up for Burke being medicated with psychoactive drugs.

    I think any woman with ovarian cancer would have been able to get whatever the hell she wanted from any doctor who saw her in the time period involved.

    Since Beouf was not a psychiatrist, maybe Burke didn't get adequate evaluation, diagnosis and treatment. The same can possibly be inferred re: JBR and her regression to bedwetting and soiling, if L.H.P. was honest in PMPT.
    Both children may have experienced great traumas, and yes, I do have a suspect in mind, and no, it is neither Patsy or John for the early childhood traumas which may have manifested in regressive behaviors.. Look a generation back...

    I lived in Atlanta and had a very unhappily circuitous group of ties to the Ramseys, moving there at about the same time they did.
    Mothers who had sons who were classmates of Burke's told me of meetings held at the school about " How to treat Burke Ramsey".
    It was a very " PC" issue for the school admin,.
    That's really all I know about his early life except this:
    In the 80's and early 90's, it was NOT unusual to dress little boys in Feltman Brothers and Baby Dior, which sometimes was found above toddler sizes. My own son has a huge portrait where he is wearing... dark purple velveteen short pants, matching jacket, bow tie, white satin shirt, knee socks, and black patent dress shoes. He was barely walking, but he walked at 9 months and was also talking by that age, so he doesn't remember all those freaking CRAZY frilly, feminine- type extremely expensive luxe suits with smocked " wooden soldiers" and ducks and birds. Oh, and one, given to us by one of the town's most prominent couples, featured a huge embroidered squirrel down one side of the short pants.

    It was a different time and a different place unless you are also from the South, as in " Parent who dressed child was from the South".
    Don't read too much into it- we were extremely fussily dressed in the 80's and early 90's.
    A more recent example are the outfits worn by Prince George of England, son of Prince William and Duchess Catherine. IF you have been living under a rock, check those smocked shorts suits out.

    Burke had, from what I saw, and also was told, lower than normal attention span and thus, would expected to have less planning and post- crime skills, if he killed his sister.
    There had been an earlier accident with a golf club which I don't see mentioned here. Past behavior being a great predictor of future behavior.
    He may well have hit her in the head or pushed or thrown her to the concrete floor. IDK.

    The people with the key to what likely happened are Priscilla and Fleet White. They have insight to the family dynamics, and talked and begged for an independent investigation apart from BPD until they were silenced by the Ramseys and Lin Wood.
    Have any of you who think Burke killed JBR wondered exactly WHAT it is that Fleet White and Priscilla knew, and know, and may well carry to their graves?

    I know I have wondered for 20 years.

    One last thing I'd like to just leave here for thought: JonBenet had TWO brothers. One, a mature male, somehow ended up with a semen stained comforter and a Dr. Seuss book in the much- discussed suitcase under the window in the basement.
    JAR had been in Boulder. Positive proof that he actually left Boulder prior to Dec. 25 has never been established. It's based on what Lucinda says. Lucinda, who had already buried a daughter. John's beloved daughter, Beth, who was buried next to JBR...

    That family was so dysfunctional on so many levels. Likely, the survivors still are. I think those who are attempting to place Burke in the killing are well- intentioned. I think he is weird, he was ALWAYS weird. IMO, he's possibly been medicated for most of his life now- PTSD,, who knows? Read up on Klonopin long term use, then re-evaluate his Dr. Phil appearance and his weird laugh and statements about "memory being erased". Klonopin definitely does help " soften" very bad memories ( or it would not be a drug of choice for severe acute or chronic PTSD).

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