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  1. #1
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    20/20: Scientology: A War Without Guns 6 January 2017

    http://abc.go.com/shows/2020/episode...r-without-guns

    With A&Es Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath providing viewers with a look at the alleged practices of the Church of Scientology, a top spokesperson for the religion took to 20/20 on the Friday, January 6, episode to assert its side, claiming that attacks on the religion are discriminatory and often profit-motivated.

    http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainm...ations-w459553
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
    Both brothers were deeply immersed in $cientology and from a young age of 11, when their single mother, looking for something more in her life, joined the cult. The boys started taking auditing classes at the FL Flag center and excelled at the training. One twin was the first ever to complete a new video training regimen.

    Then the evil warlord (David Miscavage) decided to change the auditing training, making it much harder and longer and everyone had to retake all the training again. The one twin who had excelled could not complete the harder course successfully and this was a huge big deal. That twin decided he was done so he arranged to get his father (who was not in $cientology) to fly him to MN. The mother flew to MN and got the son to return. But the son was never treated the same in the cult and he was eventually booted to Philly, alone, to work in the cult there.

    The other son/twin, kept going in $cientology in FL, and stayed in the cult for 29 years, eventually joining the SeaOrg and marrying a woman he met there. The twins became estranged because the one in Philly dropped out completely, got his GED and went to college and of course was summarily booted from the cult and declared a SP (suppressive person). That twin tragically died in a car accident some years later and the 2 brothers had been estranged all that time.

    Just another example of how this cult tears apart families and generations of family members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Splenda View Post
    This week was the first time I've seen the attorney representing the church. She just repeatedly replied she didn't believe any of the statements held any validity. Deny, deny, deny. A good lawyer appears comfortable & confident, not defensive or off putting through words or body language, and certainly not through sarcasm. In this particular case, she absolutely didn't want to appear bullyish, which is a main allegation made by prior members. A good lawyer gives facts to validate their clients' stand on things, statements to suggest why the accuser would choose to bring an action at all, other than some fault of the client. This attorney seemed snarky, unprofessional. I was surprised that the high standards boasted by the church wasn't reflected in their selection of a legal spokesperson in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by tlcya View Post
    The attorney's answers did not impress me or alleviate my concerns about this organization. That is the most professional way I can put it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmacky View Post
    Their "paid (big bucks, in cash) for attorney" did a lot of BLINKING while she was answering questions. Eye think that's a sure sign of lying not being truthful. wink wink, blink blink. MOO
    copied over some posts from another thread that pertain to the 20/20 episode aired on 1/6/17
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  3. #3
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    Tony Ortega has an interesting blog about the attorney who appeared on the 20/20 episode. According to the blog Monique Yingling is a tax attorney and her husband, Gerald Feffer (now deceased), assisted the organization in fnally achieving tax exempt status as a religion after the organization's self described lengthy "war" with the IRS.

    http://tonyortega.org/2017/01/05/sci...r-2-4-million/
    Last edited by tlcya; 01-08-2017 at 08:55 PM. Reason: typo
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlcya View Post
    http://abc.go.com/shows/2020/episode...r-without-guns

    With A&Es Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath providing viewers with a look at the alleged practices of the Church of Scientology, a top spokesperson for the religion took to 20/20 on the Friday, January 6, episode to assert its side, claiming that attacks on the religion are discriminatory and often profit-motivated.

    http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainm...ations-w459553
    There are no other religions that I have personally experienced where if you leave, you have to "disconnect" from your family and church members start spying on you and harassing you on a regular basis. IMHO, this religion is misleading and damaging to all who attend or are members. Only in the USA can a man write a book and start a religion based on his beliefs and the broken people of the world join and give up everything to be a part of it because they are so desperate to belong to something. I say go leah, please keep educating me on what not to do and at least maybe... just maybe some good will come out of this by some families reuniting with their loved ones. Nobody should have to "disconnect" from their family members for anything or anyone.

    As always just my opinion.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    The Amish still shun those who leave their denomination. I don't think they have the resources to do much surveilling, but extreme social pressure may be brought by the family of a congregant who tries to leave.

    It seems less common now, but it wasn't all that long ago (certainly within my lifetime) that many Jews and Catholics risked being ostracized for leaving or marrying outside their faith. I have friends who had that experience as recently as the 1980s.

    I agree shunning your child (or sibling or parent) is abhorrent, but it's not uncommon in the most conservative sects. Scientology may put a bit more energy into it, but as Remini herself has said on her show, it's usually only those who speak out against the church who are harassed. Those who go quietly are allowed to leave, according to her, but of course they leave not just every THING but every ONE behind.

  6. #6
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    I loved it when Leah Remini called the 20/20 reporter, Dan Harris, an a--hole!

    His big "get" was the Scientology rep (since the church has refused to appear on Leah's own show), so Harris was peppering Remini with the nonsense the Co$ lawyer had supplied him as if even the lawyer thought it was true.

    I'd bet money that the reference to Remini as a "has-been actress" was something the reporter himself had said to her first (just as we first heard it on the voice over), claiming to quote the Co$ lawyer. Of course, Remini was insulted! She's been on DWTS, she's written a book, and I don't know what else since her series ended, but it's a rare actor who gets a lead in even one long-running TV show. There's no shame in not immediately getting a second one. (And I suspect being an enemy of the Co$ doesn't help.)

  7. #7
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    Finally--and I guess this is as good a place as any to say it--the worst stories we are hearing concern members of the Sea Org. And the Sea Org shouldn't be thought of as a regular congregation in another church. There are (fill in the blank because the Co$ won't tell the true numbers) people who take a few or a lot of courses, don't give up their homes or families, and leave whenever they want to go.

    The members of Sea Org are really the Co$'s clergy. They should be compared to priests in a monastery or nuns in a convent about a century ago (since cloisters are rare now, I believe). They have taken vows and the Co$'s leaders have invested in them; of course, there will be pushback when they leave or when they try to convince other members to go with them. I'm not saying the way they are treated is right or that Remini is even exaggerating. It's just that we should resist thinking of everyone who takes a Dianetics class as a church member (even if the Co$ so counts them); the vast majority are not that involved.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    The members of Sea Org are really the Co$'s clergy. They should be compared to priests in a monastery or nuns in a convent about a century ago (since cloisters are rare now, I believe). They have taken vows and the Co$'s leaders have invested in them; of course, there will be pushback when they leave or when they try to convince other members to go with them. I'm not saying the way they are treated is right or that Remini is even exaggerating. It's just that we should resist thinking of everyone who takes a Dianetics class as a church member (even if the Co$ so counts them); the vast majority are not that involved.
    RSBM. According to statements by Miscavige's own lawyer, the Sea Org doesn't even exist. I posted an article link in the Golden Era thread, but here it is again.

    http://tonyortega.org/2015/05/07/gue...t-and-a-fraud/

    From the article -

    7. Fraud: The Sea Org is a fraud on its face because it does not actually exist. Per David Miscavige’s attorney Wallace Jefferson in his 2014 Writ of Mandamus, the Sea Org cannot have any members or volunteers and has no physical or legal existence
    I'm unsure how you are able to have members, not to mention clergy, that belong to something that doesn't exist, by the admission of the very people involved. MOO

  9. #9
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    I've been reading Tony Ortega's interesting blog since Leah's first show. I found this interesting little tidbit from April 2016, about Lisa Marie Presley.

    http://tonyortega.org/2016/04/21/how...rst-nightmare/
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by stx722 View Post
    RSBM. According to statements by Miscavige's own lawyer, the Sea Org doesn't even exist. I posted an article link in the Golden Era thread, but here it is again.

    http://tonyortega.org/2015/05/07/gue...t-and-a-fraud/

    From the article -



    I'm unsure how you are able to have members, not to mention clergy, that belong to something that doesn't exist, by the admission of the very people involved. MOO
    I've read enough books and articles, and heard enough testimony to believe the Sea Org does in fact exist. Of course, you have the right to decide for yourself.

    That said, I imagine the term "Sea Org" is unofficial shorthand, which allows the Co$ plenty of room for denial.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I've read enough books and articles, and heard enough testimony to believe the Sea Org does in fact exist. Of course, you have the right to decide for yourself.

    That said, I imagine the term "Sea Org" is unofficial shorthand, which allows the Co$ plenty of room for denial.
    More info here: https://scientologymoneyproject.com/...ct-or-fiction/

    There is what people are told when they sign up, and what they are led to believe, as opposed to the legal reality.

    From the article...

    The truth is now out in the open: The Sea Org is an artifice created to enable the Church of Scientology to evade legal problems while simultaneously exploiting its workforce to the maximum degree possible.
    Last edited by stx722; 01-14-2017 at 02:43 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    The Amish still shun those who leave their denomination. I don't think they have the resources to do much surveilling, but extreme social pressure may be brought by the family of a congregant who tries to leave.

    It seems less common now, but it wasn't all that long ago (certainly within my lifetime) that many Jews and Catholics risked being ostracized for leaving or marrying outside their faith. I have friends who had that experience as recently as the 1980s.

    I agree shunning your child (or sibling or parent) is abhorrent, but it's not uncommon in the most conservative sects. Scientology may put a bit more energy into it, but as Remini herself has said on her show, it's usually only those who speak out against the church who are harassed. Those who go quietly are allowed to leave, according to her, but of course they leave not just every THING but every ONE behind.
    So I guess the lesson is not to speak out against Scientology? The other religions you mentioned may practice "shunning", but don't retaliate if someone leaves and speaks out. Only Scientology, and with vengeance.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherCher View Post
    So I guess the lesson is not to speak out against Scientology? The other religions you mentioned may practice "shunning", but don't retaliate if someone leaves and speaks out. Only Scientology, and with vengeance.
    I wrote nothing of the kind against speaking out. On the contrary, I think Remini and Rinder, et al., are doing nothing but good in speaking out and providing a forum for others to do the same.

    But I would like to see Scientology's excesses placed in a context of religious excesses in general. We know there are Muslim sects that are far more violent and intrusive than Scientology; we all remember the People's Temple. in the 1970s, a Hare Krisna group (In WV, if I recall correctly) was caught stockpiling automatic weapons. Ask gay and lesbian kids whether there are retaliations against them for being who they are. (Not in my case, BTW. My very devout family was surprisingly accepting.)

    I'm sure the mods don't want a general discussion of religion here, so I'll stop. My purpose isn't to defend the Co$ nor to attack religious faith in general. My point is merely that we should be careful about assuming the Co$ is unique, when we are viewing it by means of a series that deliberately focuses on the Co$ and no other religion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by stx722 View Post
    More info here: https://scientologymoneyproject.com/...ct-or-fiction/

    There is what people are told when they sign up, and what they are led to believe, as opposed to the legal reality.

    From the article...
    Forgive me, but I can't tell what you are arguing. That the Co$ has avoided incorporating Sea Org in any legal sense is merely a ploy to protect Sea Org from lawsuits for sexual harassment, failure to pay minimum wage, etc. It doesn't mean Sea Org doesn't exist, regardless of what Miscavige's lawyers claim.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Forgive me, but I can't tell what you are arguing. That the Co$ has avoided incorporating Sea Org in any legal sense is merely a ploy to protect Sea Org from lawsuits for sexual harassment, failure to pay minimum wage, etc. It doesn't mean Sea Org doesn't exist, regardless of what Miscavige's lawyers claim.
    I think we are both driving at the same point, just from different directions. You have summed it up perfectly, and stated it better than I was able to.
    I also think your point about putting CO$ in perspective is dead-on. In short, I think we're on the same page.

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