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  1. #1
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    Carlie Brucia and JonBenet Ramsey Strangulations Compared

    In Sarasota, Florida on February 1, 2004 eleven-year-old Carlie Brucia, walking home from a friend's house, was abducted in broad daylight, placed in a car, raped, and then strangled to death. Her body was dragged to a wooded area on church property and hidden with tree branches, where it was found four days later partially decomposed and eaten on by animals and insects. Carlie's moment of abduction was caught by video from a camera mounted in the rear of a carwash and the suspect was soon identified by family members and turned in. The killer, 39-year-old Joseph Smith, an auto mechanic, was convicted of the murder in November of 2005 and sentenced to death.

    Carlie Brucia's death by strangulation was similar to six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey's December, 1996 strangulation in several ways and a comparison of the two might shed a little bit of light on the unsolved JonBenet case. For instance:

    o Both Carlie and JonBenet were strangled by thin string ligatures.

    o Circumferential abrasions on the necks of both girls were horizontal with just a slight upward deviation in the back.

    o The hands of both girls had been bound together.

    o Both bodies had bruises and abrasions in addition to the ligature marks on the neck.

    o No semen was found on the bodies.

    o A tiny spot containing male DNA was found on the clothing of both girls.

    The ligature in the Brucia case was never found, while the ligature was left on the neck by the killer in the Ramsey case. There were no knot marks on the neck of Carlie, while there were several marks on JonBenet that could have been the result of knots tied in the string (the most prominent of which was the large red triangular red abrasion on the front left side of the neck).

    The medical examiner in the Brucia case, Dr. Russell Vega, indicated that the ligature had been applied from the back because of the slight upward slant in the back. He estimated that it would have taken only about 11 pounds of pulling pressure on the ligature to have strangled Carlie. Dr. Vega said the ligature's compression of the carotoid arteries on each side of the neck would have killed her.

    The DNA found on the back of Carlie Brucia's red shirt was found to be semen belonging to Joseph Smith. All 13 markers were able to be extracted from the small stain and the FBI testified that the chance of the DNA to have been donated by someone other than Joseph Smith was one in 32 quintillion (32 followed by 18 zeros). By comparison, thus far the 10 markers from the stain on JonBenet's panties has not been able to identify a suspect.

    BlueCrab

  2. #2
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    BlueCrab,

    Thanks for your post and collating those points, well to recap on some forensic evidence relevant to the Carlie Brucia case:

    A FBI analyst, Karen Korsberg testified that fibers from Carlie's shirt match fibers found in the station wagon Smith borrowed the night of Carlie's disappearance. Also, two hairs found in the station wagon are similar to Carlie's.

    Jennifer Luttman, the FBI examiner from Quantico, Va. testified that a semen stain taken from a shirt Carlie Brucia wore the day she was abducted matched the DNA of Joseph Smith.

    Dr. Russell Vega, medical director for Florida's 12th district. Stated in open court: "My opinion remains that strangulation was the cause of death,", also he is of the opinion that a shoelace was used to strangle Carlie.

    Carlie had a mark around her neck less than a fourth of an inch-wide that went over her Adam's apple, Vega testified. There was no knot impression, and marks on the back of the neck were higher than those in the front, indicating someone taller than Carlie held the cord continuously from behind her, he added.

    Although no ties or cords were found at the crime scene, marks on Carlie's wrists are consistent with her hands being tied while she was still alive. Yellow abrasions on her right side suggest she was dragged over a surface like concrete, and scratches on her left hip point to her being dragged over branches, while her hands were bound, Vega said.

    BlueCrab, are you suggesting that a similar ligature asphyxiation and recovered dna sample in each each case, paints a general profile of a lustful male predator?

    There are obvious differences, in that one body is located outdoors, the other indoors, one is naked on the lower torso, with her underwear, pants, and sock missing, there WAS semen sourced on Carlie Brucia's red top, has the dna sample found on JonBenet been typed as male semen? Carlie Brucia's hair strands and clothing fibers were found in Joseph Smith's borrowed station wagon. Jonbenet's hand binding may have taken place post-mortem, as part of a staging? Since there are NO marks on JonBenet's wrists which are consistent with her hands being tied while she was still alive!

    My interpretation of Dr. Russell Vega's opinion is that Carlie Brucia was asphyxiated by Joseph Smith in a vertical position, does this suggest JonBenet was asphyxiated in a similar manner?
    Last edited by UKGuy; 12-11-2005 at 08:19 PM. Reason: missing evidence

  3. #3
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    Did Carlie's family know Joseph Smith? Was there any connection to Carlie or was he a random perp?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy

    BlueCrab, are you suggesting that a similar ligature asphyxiation and recovered dna sample in each each case, paints a general profile of a lustful male predator?

    My interpretation of Dr. Russell Vega's opinion is that Carlie Brucia was asphyxiated by Joseph Smith in a vertical position, does this suggest JonBenet was asphyxiated in a similar manner?

    UKGuy,

    I'm suggesting that a string or cord being used as a ligature in both cases, and the circumferential horizontal abrasion it left on the neck with a slight upward slant toward the back in both cases, may indicate a pattern of death most people are unfamiliar with but which may be more common than we think -- accidental strangulation during forced erotic asphyxiation.

    Why would Joseph Smith use a cord or shoestring to strangle Carlie? He could have more easily used just his two bare hands to strangle her. Carlie was bound at the wrists and helpless. IOW, as I have suggested in the JonBenet strangulation, the cord could have been a sexual device applied by the perpetrator in an attempt to further pleasure his victim and thus further psychologically satisfy himself.

    The brother, John Smith, testified that Joe told him they had engaged in "rough sex", which can be interpreted as meaning EA (choking the female during sex to enhance her orgasm). And as the FBI estimates happens an estimated 500 times a year in the U.S. alone, EA (erotic asphyxiation) and AEA (autoerotic asphyxiation) games end up in accidental death by strangulation.

    BlueCrab

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah
    Did Carlie's family know Joseph Smith? Was there any connection to Carlie or was he a random perp?

    Nehemiah,

    Nothing came out in the trial that indicated the killer, Joseph Smith, knew Carlie Brucia. Carlie was an apparent random victim of the predatory Smith. None of Smith's family members supported him during the trial and the brother, John, was the main witness against him. The case was solved in just a few days.

    In JonBenet's murder, we have just the opposite. Ramsey family members, by lying, obfuscating, and refusing to cooperate with the investigation, are openly covering up and protecting the identity of the killer. Consequently, the case has gone unsolved for nine years.

    BlueCrab

  6. #6
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    Great post Blue Crab

    In reading up on the 'local' convicted sexual perps, currently living in my small town. Two of these men were auto mechanics, and their mug shots showed them in the dull garb of an auto mechanic.

    The Ramnesia problems of the family cast a different hue on the comparisons of the Carlie Brucia case and the Jon Benet murder certainly.

    I wonder IF the Ramsey vehicle had been taken in for servicing at a local car dealer. Sometimes carless customers are given a drive home until called that their car is now fixed. A wide angle hmmm certainly.

    In all of these years I never thought about a LARGE knot causing the HUGE red injury over the carotid artery area, hmmm.

    My thinking has and had been that THAT huge red spot was caused by trying to stop convulsions by compression of the carotid artery area. My thought was instigated by reading of a surgery involving the carotid artery area and done to stop convulsions in children. This would be a childrens surgical procedure that a pediatrician would have been aware of, imop. aka Dr. boooof.



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    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper
    In all of these years I never thought about a LARGE knot causing the HUGE red injury over the carotid artery area, hmmm.

    Camper,

    I remember seeing some crimescene strangulation photos whereby a knot in the ligature used to strangle the victim also left a large (about the size of a quarter) red abrasion on the neck, similar to the triangular mark on the left/front of JonBenet's neck.

    As you know, my theory is that JonBenet, when found, still had an erotic asphyxiation (EA) device wrapped around her neck. When using such devices in what is sometimes referred to as "rough sex" (choking the female to enhance her orgasm), a soft padding, such as a scarf or a shirt, is placed between the ligature and the neck to prevent the ligature from leaving a circumferential abrasion on the neck. If the padding becomes bunched up in one spot during the passion of the breath-control sexual assault, then it might cause an abrasion at that spot. Of course, if the padding falls off or is not used at all, then a circumferential abrasion around the neck would likely occur -- especially if a small diameter string or rope is used as the ligature. IMO, this bunched-up area of the padding is what occurred in the JonBenet strangulation and is what likely caused the triangular red abrasion on the left/front area of her neck.

    Joseph Smith, Carlie Brucia's killer, also reportedly used "rough sex" on Carlie (in accordance with the brother's testimony), which could be interpreted as meaning EA. The ligature he used to strangle her with, a thin cord or shoestring, is missing. It is unclear if padding was used.

    It appears to me that breath control games leading to accidental death during sex or during masturbation may be on the increase and the problem is going largely undiagnosed. The JonBenet Ramsey and Carlie Brucia killings may be examples.

    BlueCrab

  8. #8
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    Okay, do you think the killer was really worried about JB achieving an orgasm??
    Was she really going to have an orgasm from a paint brush when she was passed out? Maybe I'm just ignorant here. It just doesn't seem like it would have been on the agenda after hitting her in the head. I don't get it. However, I do agree the cases have a lot of similarities.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellen13
    Okay, do you think the killer was really worried about JB achieving an orgasm??
    Was she really going to have an orgasm from a paint brush when she was passed out? Maybe I'm just ignorant here. It just doesn't seem like it would have been on the agenda after hitting her in the head. I don't get it. However, I do agree the cases have a lot of similarities.

    ellen 13,

    I'm pretty well convinced that JonBenet Ramsey died of erotic asphyxiation because the EA device was still wrapped around her neck. Carlie Brucia may also have been a victim of EA since the killer's brother testified that Joseph Smith admitted to him that he had engaged in "rough sex" with Carlie.

    In regard to the erotic asphyxiation of little girls, here's how Dr. Cyril Wecht was quoted in the Daily Times-Call of 3/3/2000 when the discussion was about the allegations from the "mystery woman" from California that a California pedophile ring had abused her as a child and members of that ring were in Boulder the night JonBenet died:

    "Wecht, who has been a pathologist for 39 years and is currently the coroner in Pittsburgh, Pa., said that while the practice of using erotic asphyxiation against little girls is "aberrational sexual behavior" of the worst sort, it is "not at all bizarre" for such allegations to surface.

    "Wecht said his experience indicates adults use the asphyxiation to create a "mild convulsion or seizure" in their victims.

    "They get a vicarious pleasure" in witnessing what they see as a simulated sexual climax by the child, he said.

    "Wecht said it is not unusual for more than one or two people to be involved in such sessions.

    "They often do it in groups," he said."

    BlueCrab

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    ellen 13,

    I'm pretty well convinced that JonBenet Ramsey died of erotic asphyxiation because the EA device was still wrapped around her neck. Carlie Brucia may also have been a victim of EA since the killer's brother testified that Joseph Smith admitted to him that he had engaged in "rough sex" with Carlie.

    In regard to the erotic asphyxiation of little girls, here's how Dr. Cyril Wecht was quoted in the Daily Times-Call of 3/3/2000 when the discussion was about the allegations from the "mystery woman" from California that a California pedophile ring had abused her as a child and members of that ring were in Boulder the night JonBenet died:

    "Wecht, who has been a pathologist for 39 years and is currently the coroner in Pittsburgh, Pa., said that while the practice of using erotic asphyxiation against little girls is "aberrational sexual behavior" of the worst sort, it is "not at all bizarre" for such allegations to surface.

    "Wecht said his experience indicates adults use the asphyxiation to create a "mild convulsion or seizure" in their victims.

    "They get a vicarious pleasure" in witnessing what they see as a simulated sexual climax by the child, he said.

    "Wecht said it is not unusual for more than one or two people to be involved in such sessions.

    "They often do it in groups," he said."

    BlueCrab
    BC, I was going to post a response to you that would say "you know so much about this but I will never accept that the ligature is AE related". I just could not buy the idea that a person sexually assaulting a child would care to heighten the child's experience by using an AE ligature. Sexual assault is about power and violence, not sexual pleasure, esp to the victim. Furthermore, I just could not see a child (BR or JBR) using AE on one another either, as they were too young and sexually immature, imo.

    But FINALLY, a light bulb went on when you quoted Wecht, as in bold above. This is the only way I could buy into an AE angle here. That a perp would use AE to simulate a sexual response in the victim.


    PS With your knowledge of the facts of the case, I wish you would post your entire theory on the Members Theories" thread (or direct me to a past post in which you spell it out...)


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandraladeda
    With your knowledge of the facts of the case, I wish you would post your entire theory on the Members Theories" thread (or direct me to a past post in which you spell it out...)

    sandraladeda,

    I'm sorry, but I have no set theory with respect to the JonBenet Ramsey murder. However, based on the credible evidence available to us, I know one of the three Ramseys in the house that night was directly involved in the crime as either the killer or as an accomplice to the killer. I lean heavily toward Burke as the perp and the parents covering it up. But there's evidence a fifth person was in the house that night, invited in by Burke and well known to the Ramseys, and that fifth person may be the actual killer with Burke an accomplice.

    I also have reason to believe some authorities in Boulder know who killed JonBenet but the information cannot be publicly divulged without violating the Colorado Children's Code protecting the identities of children under 10 years of age.

    BlueCrab

  12. #12
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    Red face

    Interesting!!!

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    It is an interesting theory, and one I've considered since hearing it, but I don't see any past history of Burke demonstrating that he was anywhere near capable of doing such a thing to his little sister. There's no past evidence of any serious jealousy towards her, enough to want to hurt her like that, and I believe at nine years old that Burke would have been too sexually immature to think up or want to participate in molesting JonBenet, and I don't believe he would have known how to create or implement the garrote. I'm convinced Patsy wrote the ransom note, and the only reason she would have done so is to cover up for a Ramsey, so I think one of them killed JonBenet, but I'm not sure it was Burke. It's possible though.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    It is an interesting theory, and one I've considered since hearing it, but I don't see any past history of Burke demonstrating that he was anywhere near capable of doing such a thing to his little sister. There's no past evidence of any serious jealousy towards her, enough to want to hurt her like that, and I believe at nine years old that Burke would have been too sexually immature to think up or want to participate in molesting JonBenet, and I don't believe he would have known how to create or implement the garrote. I'm convinced Patsy wrote the ransom note, and the only reason she would have done so is to cover up for a Ramsey, so I think one of them killed JonBenet, but I'm not sure it was Burke. It's possible though.

    Nuisanceposter,

    You're correct, there probably was not much jealousy between JonBenet and Burke, other than normal sibling rivalries. But please remember that, in this BDI theory, dangerous EA was being practiced by children and the asphyxiation death was unsurprisingly ACCIDENTAL. The kids didn't know what they were doing.

    I'm certain erotic asphyxiation was a part of this death because the contraption found wrapped around JonBenet's neck was not designed as a garrote -- it was designed as an EA device. I think the kids had been exposed to EA and AEA by way of a tutor and the EA device had been built and used by the children on days prior to the murder.

    Erotic asphyxiation is popular among teens and young men. There are several young men who had regular access to the children and who could have been the tutor.

    BlueCrab

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    Hmmm

    I am just jumping in here to make a statement. Christmas has me standing on my head soooooo have not read the thread in its entirety yet! Later!

    However, all small boys love ROPE. Mine three boys did. I am now thinking that the possibility exists that B built the device just to see if he could. The old saying that boys will be boys still holds true. Watching my adventuresome 11 year old grandson. HE has many friends from many backgrounds and they teach one another, hmmm, many things. All know how to use the computer.

    The missing 'traditional' Ramsey video is another sore spot for my brain. SOMETHING happened on that video that caused it to not EXIST for the police.

    It is possible that the device was merely used to choke Jon Benet and swing her into a wall. Then the coverup began.

    JUST HOW would the Ramseys explain such an ugly happening?

    Later.
    Merry Christmas
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""

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