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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imp View Post
    I'm not sure about that. We need to figure out how much money we're actually spending propping these folks up, how it's being spent, and for how long. I'm really tired of taxpayer dollars going to programs the taxpayers know nothing about. Refugee resettlement appears to be a very lucrative industry for many people, all at taxpayer expense. I've seen information suggesting refugee children are allotted many goodies the kids of U.S. taxpayers may or may not be able to afford.
    Fair enough. I agree that there should be limits on who can come into the United States.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by NvrEndgStry View Post
    I'll piggy back here on what Momma2cam shared...I use to volunteer for a refugee service organization. I learned so much about the process and the experience that these people endure. It is often a perilous and dangerous trek to make it to the safety of a refugee camp; enduring weather, physical threats, fear, uncertainty (I hope there never comes a time in my life where I experience the things I've been told about). Once in the camp, a refugee is there indefinitely waiting for a sponsor country to accept them. They are heavily scrutinized and interviewed dozens of times over a period of many years (often to ensure their answers are consistent), if they are selected for the USA, they will go through a CIA background check, a medical check (if any disqualifying condition is presented they will barred from entry). Depending on what part of the world they are from, they may not have any English ability and it is impossible to know which home country they will find to study a language and prepare in advance- One of my families spent eight years in camp before they were picked up for the US. After everything comes back in order 18 to 24 months roughly- they fly over to the US and are sent to their host state. The US government provides their airfare to come to the US and three months-- THREE MONTHS of assistance. That's IT. Sink or swim. That's why these organizations (non government) are so important the process. They are charitable groups and provide these families with jobs, language support, cultural assistance, furniture, anything you can think of to navigate their new lives. It is scary, it tough, it is by no means easy- no matter how well off or middle class or whatever status these people had in their lives before it is a humbling and challenging experience- they live extremely frugally and it is stressful having something completely foreign to you on every level thrust at you quickly. I can't think of anything that could really truly prepare someone for what the experience is going to be like. There's a gravity to it. I sensed from the people I met that they felt grateful to be alive because their situations had become some bleak and dangerous...I understood that they experienced things that they may never be able to articulate- these people are war vets, but they aren't soldiers- they are regular everyday people; men, women, children who are innocent

    As far as out vetting goes, after 9/11 they overhauled it and made it extreme. Out of all the Western countries, the US is the the most difficult to gain entry. However, given that we go to great lengths to vet people who want to resettle here, or to become a resident alien, or to become a citizen--The easiest way to gain entry to the US is via our tourist visa program. Aside from being an simple reason to come to the US, it is easy to overstay the visa when it expires. We have laws in place already to remove people when they do this, but over time it hasn't been widely enforced and then you turn around and have a non documented population in the millions!!! Seems like, it would make sense to enforce those expiration dates.

    One last thing, we talk about resources. Land, clean air, clean water- but, sometimes people forget that human capital is resource. You have to have people to fill jobs and you have to have a lot of diversity in your workforce. We fall short on the physical labor demands and we fall short on the high tech and medical field demands. Then, we have some people in this country who are opposed expanding public education. Well, you need talent from somewhere and if we aren't willing to invest in our citizenry to meet the demands of our society then we have to expand our pool of resources.
    this is nonsense. welfare use by refugees is outrageous and costs us billions.

    ETA Forgot the link

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...on-in-fy-2017/
    Last edited by Gardenista; 05-07-2017 at 11:15 PM.

  3. #63
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    I agree with overhauling the tourist visa program--crack down on that for sure!

    As far as the ever broadening gap in the US between the poor & the rich (while the middle class continues to shrink)-- our own citizens are having difficulty staying afloat while having the advantage of being born & raised here! Life is tough even with a solid education and skill sets.
    I'm thinking we are dooming these refugees to failure, crime, or segregation into their own "societies" by bringing them into our fast-paced, driven, highly competitive society. We have no working plan. Is it just because we want to assuage our conscience?
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Look, if any of us wanted to mind our own business, we wouldn't be here" (carbuff 8/11/13)

    This post reflects my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy it anywhere else outside of the WebSleuth forum

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATasteOfHoney View Post
    Risk & odds making is a complicated business. For the sake of not deviating too far off the thread topic; here goes:
    People in Michigan have less risk than I do from dying from a shark attack. People where I live have a significantly greater chance of being hit by lightening since I live in the "lightening capital of the US". People who live in a rural farm town in Minnesota who suddenly get "elected" to have a Somali group of 2,000 literally dumped at their small town doorstep......well, there's going to be a problem with language, skill sets, shelter, cultural differences, monetary/survival issues, etc which equates to a sudden spike in crimes. Because there really is no assimilation plan & who knows if the refugees have a desire to assimilate?
    It's about controlled risks.
    The thing is, we don't see a spike in crime in those areas highly populated with immigrants.

    https://www.cato.org/blog/immigratio...-research-says

    "With few exceptions,*immigrants are less crime prone than natives or have no effect on crime rates."

    ď[T]he weight of the evidence suggests that immigration is not associated with increased levels of crime.* To the extent that a relationship does exist, research often finds a negative effect of immigration on levels of crime, in general, and on homicide in particular."

    So, again I ask- if you don't trust that they will assimilate and you believe they must to safely come here, then are you of the opinion that we have no responsibility to help and should close the border to immigrants, refugees, and asylees? Also crack down on travel?

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    What I mean is if a refugee can't be vetted because the country of origin can't provide the necessary information for a proper security screening then the refugee doesn't come into the United States.
    I will take that a step further and add that I think we need to have a serious review and national discussion on the definition of "refugee" and what circumstances, and which countries might be eligible for this status. Simply being from a poor country without a functioning government is not enough reason, IMO, for refugee status the way we have defined and administered the program. IMO, the number of people who qualify for asylum/ refugee status should be extremely small, not massively large.

    We need to discuss as a nation the difference between "potential legal immigrant" and "refugee". Politics has taken over what should be a logical and rational decision making process. IMO, the overwhelming majority of people who are coming here under "refugee status" should instead be applying to come here using usual immigration procedures.

  6. #66
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    Looks like the Time article was written in 2012. The Pulse shooting happened four years after this article was published.


    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    HOLD ON...wait a minute. I call BS on this article.

    here is what they give as their super scientific total body count of Jihadists in US since 9/11:


    In their June study, the foundation decided to examine groups "engaged in violent extremist activity" and found that white extremists were by far the most dangerous. They pointed to the recent Emanuel AME Church shooting in Charleston, S.C., and the 2012 attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, as well as many lesser-known attacks on Jewish institutions and on police. They found that 48 people were killed by white terrorists, while 26 were killed by radical Islamists, since Sept. 11.

    TWENTY SIX were killed by radical Islamists?

    How many were killed in the Pulse nightclub? FIFTY

    So that one incident right there beats out the white rightwing killers.

  7. #67
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    It's interesting to me that the one thing that's almost never discussed with regard to refugees and migrants needing or wanting to come here for a better life is, why is it the responsibility of the U.S. to be the safe harbor and financier for the world? Why doesn't anyone ever discuss why it is that some countries or regions of the world are in constant chaos and endless wars at the expense of their native populations? How did all that become America's problem to solve? And if we dare try to control our own borders, we're the bad guys?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Z View Post
    I will take that a step further and add that I think we need to have a serious review and national discussion on the definition of "refugee" and what circumstances, and which countries might be eligible for this status. Simply being from a poor country without a functioning government is not enough reason, IMO, for refugee status the way we have defined and administered the program. IMO, the number of people who qualify for asylum/ refugee status should be extremely small, not massively large.

    We need to discuss as a nation the difference between "potential legal immigrant" and "refugee". Politics has taken over what should be a logical and rational decision making process. IMO, the overwhelming majority of people who are coming here under "refugee status" should instead be applying to come here using usual immigration procedures.
    Refugee status is very clearly and strictly defined: "Who is a refugee?

    A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war, or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Most likely, they cannot return home or are afraid to do so. War and ethnic, tribal and religious violence are leading causes of refugees fleeing their countries."

    Sadly, in many of these countries full of war, it would not be difficult to qualify. I don't think that makes the term too broad but rather the reality too grim.

    The percentage of refugees that are actually accepted and approved for resettlement out of the total that apply is very small.

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  9. #69
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    here is the super scientific list of Jihadists:

    Ali muhammed Brown-- 3 shot and killed randomly

    Alton Nolen---beheaded one coworker

    Joshua Cummings---executed a cop

    Syed Farook,tashfeen malik---killed 14, injured 22

    Omar mateen---49 killed

    Naveed Haq---one killed, 5 injured


    Nidal Hasan---shot and killed 13, injured 32

    Carlos Bledsoe--shot and killed 1 marine, injured 2

    Tsarnaev brothers---killed 3, critically injured 16, 500 injured

    Hesham Hadayet---killed 2, injured 4

    Mohammed Abdulazeez---killed 5 marines



    Revised total===NINETY FOUR DEAD--- 567 injured


    So that article linked above is total HOGWASH when they say there were more white extremist's victims than those of Jihadis.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fairy1
    http://time.com/3934980/right-wing-e...adi-dangerous/

    Damn foreigners! Oh wait....
    ďEvery day that they donít find something is good for me.ď Billie Dunn

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATasteOfHoney View Post
    I agree with overhauling the tourist visa program--crack down on that for sure!

    As far as the ever broadening gap in the US between the poor & the rich (while the middle class continues to shrink)-- our own citizens are having difficulty staying afloat while having the advantage of being born & raised here! Life is tough even with a solid education and skill sets.
    I'm thinking we are dooming these refugees to failure, crime, or segregation into their own "societies" by bringing them into our fast-paced, driven, highly competitive society. We have no working plan. Is it just because we want to assuage our conscience?
    I absolutely believe it's to assuage our conscience. (With plenty of virtue-signalling thrown into the mix for good measure - the whole "my compassion is purer than your compassion" routine.) The question is, why do we feel guilty? Who made us feel this way, or more importantly, why did we buy into it?


  11. #71
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    [QUOTE=Momma2cam;13360713]The thing is, we don't see a spike in crime in those areas highly populated with immigrants.

    https://www.cato.org/blog/immigratio...-research-says

    "With few exceptions,*immigrants are less crime prone than natives or have no effect on crime rates."

    “[T]he weight of the evidence suggests that immigration is not associated with increased levels of crime.* To the extent that a relationship does exist, research often finds a negative effect of immigration on levels of crime, in general, and on homicide in particular."

    So, again I ask- if you don't trust that they will assimilate and you believe they must to safely come here, then are you of the opinion that we have no responsibility to help and should close the border to immigrants, refugees, and asylees? Also crack down on travel?

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk[/

    ***The 2016 attacks were further evidence that many of the more than than 101,000 Somali refugees who have been resettled in the United States since 2001 (according to the Department of State’s interactive website) have not assimilated well in their new country.***

    I guess we just read different articles.

    By the way, you originally asked Katy the question you are now addressing to me. Just an fyi
    Last edited by ATasteOfHoney; 05-07-2017 at 11:39 PM.
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    "Look, if any of us wanted to mind our own business, we wouldn't be here" (carbuff 8/11/13)

    This post reflects my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy it anywhere else outside of the WebSleuth forum

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imp View Post
    It's interesting to me that the one thing that's almost never discussed with regard to refugees and migrants needing or wanting to come here for a better life is, why is it the responsibility of the U.S. to be the safe harbor and financier for the world? Why doesn't anyone ever discuss why it is that some countries or regions of the world are in constant chaos and endless wars at the expense of their native populations? How did all that become America's problem to solve? And if we dare try to control our own borders, we're the bad guys?
    That's actually the argument I hear most. I respect it and don't know the answer. Who determines how many we help? Do we have any obligation at all? Do we have total obligation? I don't know. I think that is the root of the issue, though, and comes down to vast philosophical differences. I think the solution is to somehow find a middle ground but I'm not sure how to do that.

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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by NvrEndgStry View Post
    Looks like the Time article was written in 2012. The Pulse shooting happened four years after this article was published.

    But they listed Mateen in their suspect list: [ here are the names they listed, I added the actual victim count]

    Ali muhammed Brown-- 3 shot and killed randomly

    Alton Nolen---beheaded one coworker

    Joshua Cummings---executed a cop

    Syed Farook,tashfeen malik---killed 14, injured 22

    Omar mateen---49 killed

    Naveed Haq---one killed, 5 injured


    Nidal Hasan---shot and killed 13, injured 32

    Carlos Bledsoe--shot and killed 1 marine, injured 2

    Tsarnaev brothers---killed 3, critically injured 16, 500 injured

    Hesham Hadayet---killed 2, injured 4

    Mohammed Abdulazeez---killed 5 marines
    ďEvery day that they donít find something is good for me.ď Billie Dunn

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imp View Post
    I absolutely believe it's to assuage our conscience. (With plenty of virtue-signalling thrown into the mix for good measure - the whole "my compassion is purer than your compassion" routine.) The question is, why do we feel guilty? Who made us feel this way, or more importantly, why did we buy into it?
    And why do we care for those people when we have American citizens who need the help? I cannot wrap my mind around the thought process of complaining about not enough Medicaid for the poor, yet importing more poor people.

    the only thing that makes sense is they want them to become citizens for the votes.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenista View Post
    And why do we care for those people when we have American citizens who need the help? I cannot wrap my mind around the thought process of complaining about not enough Medicaid for the poor, yet importing more poor people.

    the only thing that makes sense is they want them to become citizens for the votes.
    The votes? Are you serious?

    And with that, I'm out.

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