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  1. #1
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    2017.05.13 Infant male circumcision-- Issues and opinions

    Issues and opinions about infant male circumcision keep coming up alongside discussion of Female Genital Mutilation, as the FGM cases in Michigan have been covered by the media. Infant male circumcision has a lot of social, cultural, medical, and legal differences from FGM, particularly in the U.S.

    Hopefully, we can explore and discuss the issues of male infant circumcision here.

  2. #2
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    Thank you for the thread.

    The female mutilation is far more horrible. At least the boy can function after circumcision. But I don't really understand the need to cut a baby boy either. I've read that it is "to be clean." Big deal . Wash it like any other body part. NO need to cut it off (imo)

  3. #3
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    https://www.circinfo.org/USA_deaths.html

    The study, by researcher Dan Bollinger, concluded that approximately 117 neonatal deaths due directly or indirectly to circumcision occur annually in the United States, or one out of every 77 male neonatal deaths. This compares with 44 neonatal deaths from suffocation, 8 in automobile accidents and 115 from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, all of which losses have aroused deep concern among child health authorities and stimulated special programs to reduce mortality. (Remember those red noses?) Why, the study asks, has the even greater number of deaths from circumcision not aroused the same response?
    It's my opinion if no link provided.


    Misspellings due to fat fingers

    Words matter.

    You don't know what you don't know.

  4. #4
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    We did not have our son circumsized. He is fully grown and healthy and happy.


    ETA---- We were in the hospital with his biomom when our son was born. She signed papers with the social worker and we were able to put his name on his birth certificate and we were given papers allowing us to take him home. The VERY FIRST question we were asked, as we became his legal parents, was about circumcision. As a Mom, I could not say YES to that, as the first thing I would do to my new baby.
    Last edited by katydid23; 05-13-2017 at 01:17 PM.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  5. #5
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    All these years later, if I had it to do over again I would say NO. I will add that it was recommended by our physician and even though I didn't want to do it, my sons father wanted it to be done. He had been circumcised and felt our son would feel "different" if he wasn't also. I wasn't a nurse at the time. When we know better..........we do better. JMO

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaborDayRN View Post
    All these years later, if I had it to do over again I would say NO. I will add that it was recommended by our physician and even though I didn't want to do it, my sons father wanted it to be done. He had been circumcised and felt our son would feel "different" if he wasn't also. I wasn't a nurse at the time. When we know better..........we do better. JMO

    rbbm
    See that's the thing though...We get the "you do better when you know better" have a hug, treatment. But other people get charges filed, jail time, loss of parental rights... and for the love of God, please don't anyone say, "But it's So much worse for the girls"! I am not talking about the severity, or outcome, or motive, but the blatant double standered.

    It's like saying, "well you can rob a bank, if you just take a lil money, but if you steal the big bucks you're going to jail Robber!"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safeguard View Post
    [/B]
    rbbm
    See that's the thing though...We get the "you do better when you know better" have a hug, treatment. But other people get charges filed, jail time, loss of parental rights... and for the love of God, please don't anyone say, "But it's So much worse for the girls"! I am not talking about the severity, or outcome, or motive, but the blatant double standered.

    It's like saying, "well you can rob a bank, if you just take a lil money, but if you steal the big bucks you're going to jail Robber!"
    I was only responding to the topic of this thread and sharing my guilt over allowing it to be done. I wasn't debating which is worse. I feel both should be illegal. IMO there are no health benefits. Children should be taught how to properly keep themselves clean, just like brushing there teeth.
    Last edited by LaborDayRN; 05-13-2017 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #8
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    It's not entirely true that there are *no* health benefits for male circumcision, and that's why there is such a controversy about it. There are plenty of studies that show unequivocably that male circ decreases HIV transmission, and STDs. It's also not true that sexual pleasure is diminished for circumcised men, or that they have a lifetime of genitourinary miseries, like FGM. And lots of studies about that, too.

    Male circumcision, IMO, is more like getting your earlobes pierced, and FGM is more analogous to amputating the penis and/ or testicles all together.

    Here is the WHO position on male circ, and WHO is also one of the loudest, and most persistent voices condemning FGM.

    http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

    There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

    Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; the promotion of safer sex practices; the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use
    .

    Interesting discussion of "intactivism" proliferation on the internet:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health...cumcision.html

    And an intactivist group:

    http://www.intactamerica.org/

  9. #9
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    My position is that it should not be covered by insurance or medicaid, that anesthesia (penile block) should be used when it is done, and that it is a personal choice parents should be allowed legally to make. I think physicians should be able to choose whether or not they provide this, and all parents should be provided with balanced information about risks and benefits. On some level, I think people have a responsibility to research the issues for themselves and make an informed decision, but some folks just rely on whatever their friends or family or docs tell them, and don't process the decision much further than that. So, we in healthcare have a big responsibility to provide balanced information.

    I think it's more analogous to cosmetic surgery in the U.S. than "medically necessary".

    That said, insurance seldom covers it anymore, and the rate in the U.S. has been plummeting for more than 15-20 years now. I personally think the withdrawal of coverage prompted many more to think about the issues, and whether they were willing to pay for it, in addition to that.

    Other than then jewish bris cultural ceremony, I'm not aware of any male circ procedures being done outside health care facilities-- but there have been recent (last 2 months) outbreaks of neonatal herpes attributed to the jewish ceremony, though, which is a big public health concern, IMO.

    http://nypost.com/2017/03/08/new-cas...-circumcision/

    https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...orthodox-mohel

    NEW YORK CITY — There have been six reported cases of infant herpes linked to circumcisions in the three years since the city eased rules that regulated ultra-Orthodox Jewish practitioners who clean the wound with their mouth, city health officials said Wednesday.

    The controversial ritual, known among the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community as metzitzah b’peh, calls for a trained devotee or "mohel" to clean circumcision wounds by oral suction during a bris, or circumcision.

    There have been several cases of baby boys recently being diagnosed with herpes after a bris — most recently when city health officials revealed on Wednesday that an infant had been admitted to inpatient care with a rash and blisters on his genitals, buttocks, inner thigh and ankle after being circumcised in that manner at 8 days old.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7620446.html
    Last edited by K_Z; 05-13-2017 at 04:26 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Z View Post

    Male circumcision, IMO, is more like getting your earlobes pierced,

    rsbbm
    No. it is NOT "just like getting your ears pierced" imo.
    39 years later I can still vividly recall my son screaming. :/
    Last edited by Safeguard; 05-13-2017 at 04:32 PM.


  11. #11
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    My position is that it should not be covered by insurance or medicaid, that anesthesia (penile block) should be used when it is done, and that it is a personal choice parents should be allowed legally to make. I think physicians should be able to choose whether or not they provide this, and all parents should be provided with balanced information about risks and benefits. On some level, I think people have a responsibility to research the issues for themselves and make an informed decision, but some folks just rely on whatever their friends or family or docs tell them, and don't process the decision much further than that. So, we in healthcare have a big responsibility to provide balanced information.

    I think it's more analogous to cosmetic surgery in the U.S. than "medically necessary".

    That said, insurance seldom covers it anymore, and the rate in the U.S. has been plummeting for more than 15-20 years now. I personally think the withdrawal of coverage prompted many more to think about the issues, and whether they were willing to pay for it, in addition to that.

    Other than then jewish bris cultural ceremony, I'm not aware of any male circ procedures being done outside health care facilities-- but there have been recent (last 2 months) outbreaks of neonatal herpes attributed to the jewish ceremony, though, which is a big public health concern, IMO.

    http://nypost.com/2017/03/08/new-cas...-circumcision/

    https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...orthodox-mohel

    NEW YORK CITY — There have been six reported cases of infant herpes linked to circumcisions in the three years since the city eased rules that regulated ultra-Orthodox Jewish practitioners who clean the wound with their mouth, city health officials said Wednesday.

    The controversial ritual, known among the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community as metzitzah b’peh, calls for a trained devotee or "mohel" to clean circumcision wounds by oral suction during a bris, or circumcision.

    There have been several cases of baby boys being diagnosed with herpes after a bris — most recently when city health officials revealed on Wednesday that an infant had been admitted to inpatient care with a rash and blisters on his genitals, buttocks, inner thigh and ankle after being circumcised in that manner at 8 days old.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7620446.html

    An estimated 3,000 babies are circumcised each year using the method in New York City, home to the largest Jewish population outside Israel.

    Mr de Blasio retracted the requirement for a parental consent form for the practice two years ago in a compromise with ultra-Orthodox leaders who agreed to help identify and isolate any mohels found to be responsible for an infection.

    Of the six previously undisclosed cases, two occurred last year and three in 2015.

    Since 2000, there have been 24 cases of infant herpes linked to circumcision, leading to two deaths and two cases of brain damage, according to the New York Post.
    **Sorry about the double post-- not sure what happened. My typing is very slow and clumsy at present-- just had hand surgery. Disregard typos, plz!
    Last edited by K_Z; 05-13-2017 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safeguard View Post
    rsbbm
    No. it is NOT "just like getting your ears pierced" imo.
    39 years later I can still vividly recall my son screaming. :/
    I wasn't suggesting it isn't painful. it definitely is. And when it is done, I think anesthesia (penile block) should be used.

    I'm suggesting that the result, once healed, does not impair function, and that there are studies that demonstrate that it does reduce disease transmission. In partd of the world plagued with HIV and AIDS, as well as other devastating STDs, it DOES have some medical benefit.

    I totally get that you abhor the practice.

    But here is a question. Do you think male circ *should be* promoted or encouraged in Africa and other parts of the world plagued with high rates of HIV/Aids, and diseases like advanced syphilis (neuro)? To me, the risks of the devastating effects of disease outweigh the risks of the procedure. And the procedure is cheap, and low risk, when done under sanitary conditions. If we have something cheap and low risk, that can help lots of people who are poor, and have extremely limited access to medical care, why not promote it?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Z View Post
    I wasn't suggesting it isn't painful. it definitely is. And when it is done, I think anesthesia (penile block) should be used.

    I'm suggesting that the result, once healed, does not impair function, and that there are studies that demonstrate that it does reduce disease transmission. In partd of the world plagued with HIV and AIDS, as well as other devastating STDs, it DOES have some medical benefit.

    I totally get that you abhor the practice.

    But here is a question. Do you think male circ *should be* promoted or encouraged in Africa and other parts of the world plagued with high rates of HIV/Aids, and diseases like advanced syphilis (neuro)? To me, the risks of the devastating effects of disease outweigh the risks of the procedure. And the procedure is cheap, and low risk, when done under sanitary conditions. If we have something cheap and low risk, that can help lots of people who are poor, and have extremely limited access to medical care, why not promote it?
    rbbm
    It's not "a practice". It's child abuse, and yes, I do "abhor" child abuse. No I don't think cutting genitalia should be "promoted" anywhere, as a means to disease prevention.

  14. #14
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    So, here is some history on the NYC herpes outbreak. An example of a fact based, scientific policy that placed public health restrictions on a "cultural practice" during ritual orthodox jewish male circ was reversed by an ultra liberal mayor De Blasio-- with, IMO, entirely predictable results-- a preventable outbreak of transmissible disease.

    February 2015:

    Mayor Bill de Blasio today announced a new city policy on the ultra-Orthodox Jewish practice of metzitzah b’peh—in which a rabbi sucks the blood from a baby boy’s circumcised penis, a ritual the Bloomberg administration regulated because it can potentially transmit the herpes virus to the infant.

    Mr. de Blasio said he reached the new arrangement after long negotiations with rabbinical leaders. Under the new policy, the city will engage local health care providers to educate the religious Jewish community about the risk of a cold sore, caused by the herpes simplex one virus, causing a herpes infection of the child’s genitals.

    In return, Jewish leaders committed to helping the city identify the rabbi who performed the metzitzah b’peh on any baby diagnosed with HSV1, and permanently remove him as a “mohel”—one religiously certified to circumcise—if genetic testing proves he is responsible for the infection.
    http://observer.com/2015/02/de-blasi...cision-ritual/

    March 2017--

    NEW YORK CITY — There have been six reported cases of infant herpes linked to circumcisions in the three years since the city eased rules that regulated ultra-Orthodox Jewish practitioners who clean the wound with their mouth, city health officials said Wednesday.
    https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...orthodox-mohel

    According to the Health Department, 24 cases of herpes have been linked to circumcision since 2000. Two of the infants died and two others suffered brain damage.

    Last year, there were two cases. In 2015, there were three cases.

    Since 2006, 22 percent of all male neonatal herpes cases were linked to ritual circumcision.
    http://nypost.com/2017/03/08/new-cas...-circumcision/

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaborDayRN View Post
    All these years later, if I had it to do over again I would say NO. I will add that it was recommended by our physician and even though I didn't want to do it, my sons father wanted it to be done. He had been circumcised and felt our son would feel "different" if he wasn't also. I wasn't a nurse at the time. When we know better..........we do better. JMO
    Agree. Mom of 3 boys and only recently have I researched it enough to have regrets.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

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