Abrasion

Jayelles · Dec 30, 2005

On an early episode of Columbo, a victim had a strange abrasion on her right cheek. Columbo figured it was made by a back handed blow by a right handed person wearing a stoned ring.

I thought it was interesting because the description of the abrasion sounded very much like the mark on JBR.

SisterSocks · Dec 30, 2005

Jayelles said:
On an early episode of Columbo, a victim had a strange abrasion on her right cheek. Columbo figured it was made by a back handed blow by a right handed person wearing a stoned ring.

I thought it was interesting because the description of the abrasion sounded very much like the mark on JBR.

Columbo gosh I haven't heard that name in years.=)

Patsy's stone ring?

Just don't think Patsy killed JB. That War and Peace RN has Patsy written all over it.

Go figure!!

Jayelles · Dec 30, 2005

I got seasons 1 and 3 of Columbo for Xmas. I love Columbo - wish he was for real and working on the Ramsey case!

rashomon · Dec 30, 2005

Jayelles said:
On an early episode of Columbo, a victim had a strange abrasion on her right cheek. Columbo figured it was made by a back handed blow by a right handed person wearing a stoned ring.

I thought it was interesting because the description of the abrasion sounded very much like the mark on JBR.

A poster on another board asked that question too: couldn't those alleged 'stun gun' marks have been simple abrasions?
The 'Keep it Simple' principle is the royal road to the truth in the vast majority of murder cases.
Therefore I think the royal road to finding JB's killer is to ask basic questions:
How did the autopsy report describe these marks on JB's body?
Thanks in advance to anyone directing me to the source.

BlueCrab · Dec 30, 2005

rashomon said:
How did the autopsy report describe these marks on JB's body?
Thanks in advance to anyone directing me to the source.

rashomon,

The autopsy report of Dr. John Meyer described the tiny twin rectangular marks on JonBenet as abrasions. Later, after detectives showed him other evidence and testimony from coroners who had experience with analyzing stun gun marks, the coroner said the tiny twin rectangular marks were consistent with stun gun injuries (PMPT pb, pg 431).

IrishMist · Dec 30, 2005

And, of course, it's gets fuzzier...

While Dr. Mayer felt that the marks may be consistant with stun gun marks, the then talked to Dr. Michael Doberson, who had experience with stun gun marks on victims.

From The Boulder Daily Camera - January 13, 1998.

"They came over and showed me some pictures from the (Ramsey) autopsy and asked for my opinion, whether they could be stun gun injuries," Dobersen recalled. "I told them that they could be; that was a possibility. But there were a lot of things they could do to narrow down the possibilities of what it could be."
Dobersen told Boulder investigators to do what The New Yorker reports they eventually did - measure the distance between the wounds and compare that to stun guns.
"Besides", he added, "the only definitive way to tell if electrocution was involved in JonBenet's death is to re-examine her body and look for very characteristic changes in skin tissue."
"You really can't tell from a photo," Dobersen said.

(Bold emphasis mine)

rashomon · Dec 30, 2005

BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

The autopsy report of Dr. John Meyer described the tiny twin rectangular marks on JonBenet as abrasions. Later, after detectives showed him other evidence and testimony from coroners who had experience with analyzing stun gun marks, the coroner said the tiny twin rectangular marks were consistent with stun gun injuries (PMPT pb, pg 431).

So, to sum it up, those 'tiny twin rectangular marks' could be anything from abrasions to stun gun marks. Neither had been ruled out.
Which leads me back to the basic question: what is the more likely scenario in this case: that JB had abrasions or that she had stun gun marks?

BlueCrab · Dec 30, 2005

The autopsy photos strongly suggest that a stun gun was used on JonBenet.

It appears she was stungunned on the right side of the face; on the lower left back; and on the lower left leg at the ankle.

The tiny twin rectangular marks on the back were the clearest to study. They were about the same distant apart and size as the twin rectangular prongs on the Taser brand stun gun -- about 3.6 cm centerline to centerline.

UKGuy · Dec 30, 2005

BlueCrab said:
The autopsy photos strongly suggest that a stun gun was used on JonBenet.

It appears she was stungunned on the right side of the face; on the lower left back; and on the lower left leg at the ankle.

The tiny twin rectangular marks on the back were the clearest to study. They were about the same distant apart and size as the twin rectangular prongs on the Taser brand stun gun -- about 3.6 cm centerline to centerline.

If JonBenet was being indulged in some form of AE, and she was stungunned, this to me does not suggest that her indulger considered it would enhance her pleasure of the experience?

So if a stungun was employed either it was to incapacitate or torture JonBenet?

UKGuy · Dec 30, 2005

Jayelles said:
On an early episode of Columbo, a victim had a strange abrasion on her right cheek. Columbo figured it was made by a back handed blow by a right handed person wearing a stoned ring.

I thought it was interesting because the description of the abrasion sounded very much like the mark on JBR.

I also like Columbo, a bit dated now, CSI style sleuthing, appears the norm these days.

Yes the abrasions may be consistent with all manner of things, and being hit by a ring seems very plausible.

As may be JonBenet, prior to her death being a victim of some kind of bondage ritual. And the pressure points leaving some abrasions?

Or if her body collapsed or fell, and the twisting motion caused her to land on some object that caused pressure points, resulting in what is consistent with a stungun?

j2mirish · Dec 30, 2005

rashomon said:
So, to sum it up, those 'tiny twin rectangular marks' could be anything from abrasions to stun gun marks. Neither had been ruled out.
Which leads me back to the basic question: what is the more likely scenario in this case: that JB had abrasions or that she had stun gun marks?

and.....we dont know because the parents would not allow the body to be exhumed for this to be verified......I'm thinking if she was mine-- she would have been brought back to take another look

Linda7NJ · Dec 30, 2005

Jayelles said:
I got seasons 1 and 3 of Columbo for Xmas. I love Columbo - wish he was for real and working on the Ramsey case!

Imagine Columbo AND Quincy!

txsvicki · Dec 31, 2005

If the marks were a stun gun, wouldn't it be torture to stun a child 3 times since there wasn't a gag and no signs of any tight binding of the body? Surely after the first stun the murderer could have done these things and there might not be need to keep stunning. I also wonder if a hard slap or hit with a hand wouldn't also cause some bruising if it was hard enough to pierce and abrade the skin with a ring. I haven't seen any mention of bruising around those marks. Maybe the marks could have been made by holding JonBenet down with something or by a ring pressing down.

BlueCrab · Dec 31, 2005

I think everyone could be right.The marks on JonBenet could have been abrasions AND burns from stun gun hits.

When a stun gun is used on a struggling victim, the business end of the weapon, consisting of two relatively sharp metal probes, must be forced against the struggling body before the trigger is pulled. If jammed into the body hard enough and if the trigger is held long enough (over 2 or 3 seconds), it would likely cause abrasions AND burns at the same location.

BlueCrab

BrendaStar · Dec 31, 2005

At the time of the tragedy, the buzz was that the "abrasion" was consistent with the prongs of a ring pressing against JBR's skin. Patsy wore a big diamond ring with prongs.

ellen13 · Dec 31, 2005

BlueCrab said:
The autopsy photos strongly suggest that a stun gun was used on JonBenet.

It appears she was stungunned on the right side of the face; on the lower left back; and on the lower left leg at the ankle.

The tiny twin rectangular marks on the back were the clearest to study. They were about the same distant apart and size as the twin rectangular prongs on the Taser brand stun gun -- about 3.6 cm centerline to centerline.

I just don't understand why the R's wouldn't (or didn't earlier)have her body exhumed-maybe it's much too late in the game and the skin wouldn't show it. I have no idea what condition the body would be in. However, it would give them a chance to be cleared possibly. Why wasn't the stun gun thing explored earlier in the game? At what point did Lou Smit come up with his theory?

BlueCrab · Dec 31, 2005

ellen13 said:
I just don't understand why the R's wouldn't (or didn't earlier)have her body exhumed-maybe it's much too late in the game and the skin wouldn't show it. I have no idea what condition the body would be in. However, it would give them a chance to be cleared possibly. Why wasn't the stun gun thing explored earlier in the game? At what point did Lou Smit come up with his theory?

ellen13,

Stun guns weren't as popular in 1996 as they are today, and not many physicians looked for or were able to recognize and diagnose a stun gun mark. Many still can't, but with the burst in sales of Tasers to police departments all over the country then emergency room physicians and coroners are likely catching up.

I have a friend who is an emergency room physician, and when I asked him how many stun gun injuries he has ever seen he looked at me in amazement and said "None that I know of". Of course, he may have misdiagnosed the injuries if they were there because the subject wasn't covered in medical school.

JonBenet has been buried for nine years and it would be pointless to dig her up now. Under normal conditions, a child's body will be completely putrefied after five years in the grave. However, all is not lost. There are coroners who have had experience in identifying stun gun injuries and who have seen the JonBenet autopsy photos and they say the marks are consistent with a stun gun having been used on her.

BlueCrab

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