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  1. #31
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    Setting the record straight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
    ... If by chance Mr Coffey reads this 'Post', he can be as insulted as he wants.
    I would welcome Mr. Coffey's participation in this forum. Perhaps he could set us straight on a few things, and put some of these rumors to rest.

  2. #32
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    Coffey on the Site

    You both got me laughing so hard I'm coughing my head off. Maybe someone should send him an invite to the site. Never thought of that. Spouse he'd accept???

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShurlT View Post
    You both got me laughing so hard I'm coughing my head off. Maybe someone should send him an invite to the site. Never thought of that. Spouse he'd accept???
    I doubt that he has internet access. Stranger things have happened, though. All he would have to do is google his name and this site would be at the top of the list.

  4. #34
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    Tainted Eye Witness Identifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    As Mr. Huff points out in his article, there were only two known witnesses who actually SAW TRM speaking with the Lyon sisters. It is those two eyewitnesses who might still be able to identify that unknown individual today, but it would be a long shot, and police would have to be very careful in how they presented any photo line up. By placing Meroney's photo side-by-side with the two sketches on his website for any and all to see, Mr. Huff has pretty well eliminated any future eyewitness testimony against Meroney in this case - at least in regard to him being the TRM. A defense lawyer could probably get any such testimony excluded as having been tainted.

    Actually, Richard, I'm not sure this is true. The fact that an eye witness saw an arguably suggestive side-by-side comparison would not per se rule their testimony out. The test for determining whether eye witness identification testimony that has been subjected to suggestive procedures is admissible looks at the totality of the circumstances and whether the identification is nonetheless reliable despite the suggestive procedures. There are a number of factors, called the Neil factors (for the Supreme Court case Neil v. Biggers), that the court will look at. I'm not sure that seeing a blog article with the sketch and a photo side-by-side would even be considered unduly suggestive. So, for example, if one of the two eye witnesses who saw the Lyon sisters talking with TRM at the mall were presented with a line-up (five or six men (or their photos) of generally the same age and physical characteristics) and with complete confidence singled out Coffey as the man they saw that day, we cannot say with any certainty that the court would exclude that identification even if that eye witness had seen the crime blog display. Of course, it would be better if the eye witness hadn't seen the blog, and the fact that he had would certainly be used by Coffey's defense counsel to argue for exclusion, but it cannot be said that a court would definitely exclude the eye witnesses testimony identifying Coffey.

    However, this does bring to mind a related point, which I've seen you make before. Studies have shown that eye witness identifications are notoriously unreliable. Therefore, I would take all of the descriptions given by the eye witnesses in the Lyon case with a grain of salt, especially things like height, weight and age estimates, which people are always getting wrong.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Questions arise from that story: Was this second TRM photographed? Was his photo shown to any of the witnesses who had claimed to have seen TRM in the Prince Georges County malls or at Wheaton Plaza? Did he show police his tape recorder and tapes? Was he ever re-questioned regarding his activities?
    I really hope the answers to all of these questions is yes. It would have been irresponsible to eliminate him as a suspect otherwise. I would not have eliminated him based solely on the car accident alibi.

    If the physical description of the PG county TRM given by PG county eye witnesses matched the physical description of the WP TRM given by WP eye witnesses, a fairly reasonable conclusions can be drawn that they are the same man. And, if the man who came forward matched those physical descriptions, his claim not to be at WP that day would be highly suspect and I would vigorously investigate that claim, including showing his photo in a well-conducted photo line-up to the two WP eye witnesses and to any PG county eye witnesses to see if they could pick him out.

    The fact that MCP eliminated him as a suspect suggests that WP eye witnesses could not pick him out of a photo array.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The Tape Recorder Man (TRM) was seen at Wheaton Plaza speaking with Sheila and Katherine shortly before their disappearance. How long he was there that day, and how many times he had approached children previously is unknown, although a number of people reported having seen him on previous occasions - at Wheaton Plaza, and at other shopping centers in Montgomery and Prince Georges Counties, Maryland.
    It occurs to me, isn't it odd that no other people that day came forward to say they or their children were approached that day by TRM? In other words, from what I've read, the eye witnesses who saw TRM talking to the Lyon sisters are the ONLY people to have observed TRM at WP that day. Did he only approach them? This is very odd behavior and you'd think, if he did it with other kids, other eye witnesses would have come forward.

    And, even if he only "interviewed" the Lyon girls, you'd think more than two people would have seen it. It wasn't something you saw every day. It would have stuck in my mind, even if I hadn't know the children being interviewed.

    This suggests to me he wasn't doing it very long at WP and perhaps the Lyon sisters were the only ones that day.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    TRM disappeared almost the same time that the Lyon sisters did. Nobody ever came forward to state that he had been innocently interviewing people, trying out his new tape recorder, or any other such reasonable explanation. He simply disapeared and never surfaced (as TRM) again.

    . . . .

    It is also possible that TRM was simply a weird guy who, through a BIG coincidence, happened to interview these two girls shortly before some completely unrelated unknown person or persons abducted the girls. Seeing news reports of the girls' disappearance, and the sketch of TRM might have scared him into abandoning his "hobby" and into remaining silent about it for many years afterward.
    There are other explanations for why an "innocent" TRM would not come forward. It is possible (although remote) that he never heard about it. Perhaps he was a recluse who did not follow the news or watch TV. The possibility gets less remote if, say, he died or left the area right afterward. While the Lyon sisters' disappearance was big news in Maryland, I wonder if someone in Mississippi would have heard much about it. Most people I encounter and discuss the case with have never even heard of the Lyon sisters. I've found that generally only people who lived in the DC area in 1975 know about it.

  8. #38
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    Tape Recorder Man Observations

    Quote Originally Posted by emery View Post
    There are other explanations for why an "innocent" TRM would not come forward. It is possible (although remote) that he never heard about it. Perhaps he was a recluse who did not follow the news or watch TV. The possibility gets less remote if, say, he died or left the area right afterward. While the Lyon sisters' disappearance was big news in Maryland, I wonder if someone in Mississippi would have heard much about it. Most people I encounter and discuss the case with have never even heard of the Lyon sisters. I've found that generally only people who lived in the DC area in 1975 know about it.
    Emery,

    Thanks for your very insightful comments. The Tape Recorder Man or "TRM" as many refer to him remains to this day a mystery man. Certainly, it is possible that this guy was simply a weird guy with a newly acquired tape recorder, or an innocent hobbiest. But the circumstances all tend to argue against that. The fact is that the girls did, in fact, disappear on that day in March 1975 shortly after being seen talking to TRM. And TRM seemingly disappeared about the same time.

    I agree with you in that he probably was only at Wheaton Plaza for a brief time on 25 March 1975. He may have polished his approach or techniques at other malls first, then decided to make his move on the day in question. Had he been an innocent old guy with a hobby of talking to kids on his lunch hour, he would likely have spent more time at it, and probably would have been seen and remembered by more people that day.

    With regard to my earlier remarks about possible "tainting" of evidence by posting a suspect's photo alongside artist's composite drawings - or older photos - I agree that it would have to be a decision made by a judge, but any knowledge of such an on-line comparison would certainly call the question, and it would almost certainly be used by the Defense Attorney to help his client to introduce doubt to the jury. I have seen cases in which eye witness testimony was not allowed because of faulty line-ups, showing of photos, or questioning by police.

    You are also very correct about the unreliablity of eye witness descriptions and testimony. Sometimes composite drawings are way off, while at other times they look like they were drawn from life. In the case of "Jimmy" and his un-named buddy, they remembered TRM for a number of reasons. First and foremost, "Jimmy" knew both Lyon sisters quite well because he lived close to them and because he rode the same school bus as Sheila. He recognized them and wondered about the guy they were talking with, even hearing a portion of the conversation. He pointed the guy out to his buddy and they commented about his tape recorder and wondered if they, too, might get to be interviewed. They saw him walk away.

    Immediately after the sketch was published, a number of other people came forward and claimed to have seen the same man. They could not add much to "Jimmy's" description or to the drawing, although the same artist did make a slight alteration to the sketch in the mouth area based on their comments.

    My biggest concern would be the estimated age (50), which I think Jimmy based on TRM's gray or "salt and pepper" hair. Height might have been off as well, since the man was probably sitting most of the time (as was Jimmy and his friend). Also, recall that in 1975, it was a very popular style to wear boots or high heeled shoes which were covered by flare or bell bottom style trousers. Such a shoe might add a couple of inches to a person's height.

    In regard to news coverage of this story - even though the war in VietNam was the main story because of the fall of Saigon, the Lyon Sisters were THE STORY in the Washington DC Metropolitan area, and they stayed front page news for weeks, in the papers, on radio, and on TV. It was, however, picked up by other papers throughout the country because there were Associated Press (AP) feeds the went out. I recently posted one such story printed in Marin County, California.

  9. #39
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    Richard, I really appreciate how carefully and meticulously you approach this case. You really have a handle on all the known facts. I would love it if someday all your hard work bore fruit.

    It sounds like you're pretty confident that TRM (the man seen talking with the Lyon sisters) was the same man seen at the PG county malls. If we assume that fact, then the man who came forward later and said he was the one at the PG county malls was either (1) TRM or (2) a lying attention seeker.

    I can think of no other explanation except there are two men with tape recorders, which I agree would be an extraordinary coincidence. But, never discard that possibility entirely. Once a crime is committed, all kinds of seemingly odd but ultimately innocent behavior could take on sinister overtones. Sort of like conspiracy theories. Life is just odd. Sometimes things aren't related.

    Do you have a pet theory on this? I suspect option (2) is more likely given that the police seem to have eliminated him as a suspect. I wish we knew more about WHY they had eliminated him.

    I don't have any doubts the girls were abducted or came to some foul end. I agree that it would be unlikely that they were harmed outside in the neighborhood. It would have been too difficult to remove their bodies undetected afterward and I would think some evidence would have turned up.

    How thoroughly do you think the police eliminated the possibility that the girls were lured into a house in the neighborhood? It was a nice neighborhood, but that doesn't mean there couldn't have been a child molestor living there. I remember we had a guy making a bomb on Glenway Drive around that same time. The police only learned of him after it exploded in his basement! I think I read somewhere that some houses were searched. I know for a fact that neither MY house nor any of my friend's houses were searched (although they were not on the Lyon sisters' direct route to the mall).

    I've never worked directly with police dogs, but I am familiar with drug dogs and know they can be very reliable. But, I thought I read somewhere here that it rained for two days after they were abducted. (Funny, I actually think I remember this. I seem to recall the local news reporting how frustrated volunteers were that the rain was hindering their efforts to go out searching for the girls, but I may be making that up.)

    BTW, do you know exactly in which wooded area it was that the dog alerted? I understand that it could have been scent left from when the girls walked to the mall, but I'm curious. Was this the overgrown area between the edge of the neighborhood and the mall or the wooded area I described between the nursing home and Jennings that now has houses on it? I'm assuming it was not the area between Glenway and Plyers Mill with the creek. That would be really strange. I really don't think the girls would have gone down in there unless they wanted to go swing on the swing (which is a possibility). That swing was a HUGE hit in the neighborhood.

    Also, do you believe there is a link between the Lyon sisters disappearance and the other girl (sorry I've forgotten her name, Beatty?) left behind the K-Mart in Oxen Hill? I don't know why, but my gut reaction is that they aren't related despite the close proximity both in time and geography. She was older, and the MO doesn't look the same. Dumping the body behide a store. We don't even know if that girl was truly abducted or just attacked and left for dead. I would suspect a link with a clean abudction but not necessarily with an attack, which "at best" was a botched abduction. Whoever took the Lyon sisters seemed to know what he was doing.

    Regarding tainted eye witness identifications, I think we agree on the basics. I just wanted to point out that such testimony can and often (perhaps too often) is admitted despite the witness's exposure to suggestive things such as show ups and photographs. In other words, it's not an automatic disqualification of the witness.

  10. #40
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    Coffey Description from NC Dept Corr

    Jackpot: Fred Howard Coffey, Jr does have blue eyes. Confirmed by NC Department of Corrections. Complexion: light, weight: 150, height: 68 inches, Born: Bristol, VA.
    Note: TRM had blue eyes and very light complexion with brown spots that might have been freckles. I tried to put a description of him on this site a couple weeks ago but the information I typed was wiped out when I tried to submit it with a message saying I was not logged in when I clearly was at the top of the page.

    Note: there is a weight and height descrepancy from some eye witness accounts...mine included but this doesn't worry me.

    Military History---Primary Duty: operations and intelligence as...
    (Don't know if "as" is incomplete word due to lack of field space)

    http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/apps/offender/menu1

    Under: Main Menu
    Click: View Offender Data for Advanced Users
    Next Page
    Enter DOC Number: 0081135
    Check Click: Offender Profile

    Other selections can be made, i.e. Military History, etc.

    Thank you NC Dept of Corr. Wish other states would do this.


  11. #41
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    Pm

    Jeb, please check your private messages.

  12. #42
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    Jeb, please check your messages.

  13. #43
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    Message

    Richard, please check your messages.

  14. #44
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    Lots of good questions...

    [quote=emery;1521223]...It sounds like you're pretty confident that TRM (the man seen talking with the Lyon sisters) was the same man seen at the PG county malls. If we assume that fact, then the man who came forward later and said he was the one at the PG county malls was either (1) TRM or (2) a lying attention seeker.

    I can think of no other explanation except there are two men with tape recorders, which I agree would be an extraordinary coincidence. But, never discard that possibility entirely. Once a crime is committed, all kinds of seemingly odd but ultimately innocent behavior could take on sinister overtones. Sort of like conspiracy theories. Life is just odd. Sometimes things aren't related.

    Do you have a pet theory on this? I suspect option (2) is more likely given that the police seem to have eliminated him as a suspect. I wish we knew more about WHY they had eliminated him....

    ... How thoroughly do you think the police eliminated the possibility that the girls were lured into a house in the neighborhood? It was a nice neighborhood, but that doesn't mean there couldn't have been a child molestor living there. ...

    ... I've never worked directly with police dogs, but I am familiar with drug dogs and know they can be very reliable. But, I thought I read somewhere here that it rained for two days after they were abducted....

    BTW, do you know exactly in which wooded area it was that the dog alerted? ...

    ... Also, do you believe there is a link between the Lyon sisters disappearance and the other girl (sorry I've forgotten her name, Beatty?) left behind the K-Mart in Oxen Hill? I don't know why, but my gut reaction is that they aren't related despite the close proximity both in time and geography. She was older, and the MO doesn't look the same. Dumping the body behide a store. We don't even know if that girl was truly abducted or just attacked and left for dead. I would suspect a link with a clean abudction but not necessarily with an attack, which "at best" was a botched abduction. Whoever took the Lyon sisters seemed to know what he was doing. ... [quote=emery;1521223]


    --------------------------------------------------
    I am not certain whether or not the Prince Georges County TRM was the same person as the Montgomery County TRM - but I have a feeling that they were one and the same. Certainly anything is possible. There could have been a completely innocent harmless old man who wanted the Lyon Sisters to speak into his microphone and then went his way home - while the girls were abducted by someone else. And there could have been TWO completely separate and innocent such men. It is possible, but is it likely?

    The people who contacted police about seeing the TRM in Prince Georges County could not offer much change to the composite drawing of the TRM seen at Wheaton Plaza. They were pretty certain that it was the same man.

    Why would Montgomery County Police tend to eliminate the PG County TRM from the equation? Well, they interviewed a guy who came forward claiming to be the PG county TRM. He had an alabi in that he was involved in a car accident with a government vehicle and was in the hospital at that same time that the TRM was seen talking to the Lyon sisters. The police believed him. Unfortunately, the story of the "second TRM" coming forward was never released to the press.

    You pretty well sum it up regarding the possibilities about the supposed second TRM. I tend to believe that it is more likely that (1) this guy was an attention seeker - for whatever reason, or (2) that he really was doing this sort of thing and may have known the abductor of the girls. Could he have been covering for his buddy? I just find the Coincidence of there being two identical TRM's operating within a few miles of each other at the same time to be unbelievable.

    What I would really like to see is whether the police photographed this guy and then showed the photo to all of the witnesses who claimed to have seen TRM in ANY county or ANY mall.

    Regarding the police effort to search houses in the vicinity of the girls' probable path - I believe that was pretty thoroughly checked out. Not only did they go door to door, but they also looked up and interviewed many known pedophiles and perverts.

    The news media covered the disappearance as the top story for a month or more and there were constant requests for tips and assistance. Police were inundated with leads. And almost every available officer was put on the case. With all the information and disinformation flowing and with so many police involved, some things may have fallen through the cracks and some tips may have received less attention than they should have.

    I have worked with and trained tracking dogs. But I am not familiar with the details of the dog work in this particular case. I know that trained dogs were, in fact, brought in - but do not know how long the delay was, what kind of indications the dogs gave the handlers or any thing like that. I seem to recall reading that the dogs alerted on some scent, but do not know the particulars.

    I can tell you from my experience, that a good tracking dog knows the direction in which a person was traveling when he picks up the scent. So, if the dogs started a track at all, the handler could have told police if the track lead to or from the Lyon House. It is possible that a dog might have picked up a single scent from an article of clothing or something held by the person, without picking up a track. In that case, he would probably begin circling trying to pick up the scent on a track. I have never heard any specifics about the tracking dogs used to look for Sheila and Kate - other than that the wooded area between Wheaton Plaza and the Lyon House was searched.

    In any case, the longer the delay before calling in dogs, the harder the job is for them. Very hot and dry weather will dry up a scent trail, and a good rain will wash much of it away. Optimum tracking conditions involve cool damp weather.

    Good observations on the Beatty case. I have a feeling that the two cases are linked. The perpetrator might have been in a somewhat different frame of mind when Kathy Beatty was abducted and attacked. Perhaps he was drunk or on drugs at the time and not thinking as clearly as when the Lyon Sisters were abducted.

    The girls were not too far apart in age. Sheila Lyon was only a day or two away from her 13th Birthday when she disappeared. Kathy Beatty was 14. They lived only about four miles from each other and both lived in housing subdivisions of nice homes. Both cases are unsolved to this day.

  15. #45
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    The Tape Recorder Man: A summary of facts

    Tuesday, 25 March 1975

    A suspicious person was reported to have been speaking with both Sheila and Katherine Lyon only a short time before their disappearance from Wheaton Plaza Shopping Center, Maryland on Tuesday, the 25th of March 1975. This person has been referred to generally as "The Tape Recorder Man" or "TRM" in this featured case discussion.

    Two 13 year-old boys saw a man with a tape recorder speaking to the girls. One of the boys, came with his parents to police headquarters with this information, and provided a description to them. While at the police station, a Montgomery County Police Officer made a sketch of the suspect. This was on Friday, 28 March 1975, and that date was written on the sketch. The sketch was released to the news media two days later, along with a description of the man and the incident. After a number of people came forward to say that they had seen the man on other occasions (but NOT on 25 March 1975), the sketch was slightly modified and reissued to the press on 4 April - still with its origional date of 28 March. Both the origional and the revised sketch can be seen at the links provided below.

    With such a long series of posts dating back to 2004, I thought that it might be helpful to summarize the known facts as reported back in 1975 about this TRM suspect. It is interesting to see what the source of the information was and how it was reported to the public.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is what the Washington Post of Tuesday, April 1, 1975,(one week after the girls disappeared) had to say about the Tape Recorder Man Suspect when they ran the first sketch for the first time:

    (Quote) Last Friday, police said they were told that a man, described as a white male, about 6 feet tall, wearing a brown suit and carrying a brown briefcase, talked to the young girls at 1 p.m. outside the Orange Bowl Restaurant at Wheaton Plaza. The informant, police said, was a 13-year-old boy who knows the two girls well.

    Police said the boy told them that he walked past the girls and the man and saw the girls speaking into a microphone attached to a cassette tape recorder inside the briefcase. After drawing up a composite sketch from the boy's description, police said they interviewed store officials and clerks in Wheaton Plaza and showed them the sketch, but did not come up with any leads. A WMAL spokesman said some people at the station also were shown the sketch before it was released, but that no one recognized the man.

    "We're checking the sketch with known sex deviates and ... against everything we got," said Capt. Gabriel Lamastra, head of the county's juvenile section. "To be honest, I wouldn't tell you if we made a hit or not." (unquote)

    After the sketch was published, there were some store clerks who stated that they had seen the man at Wheaton Plaza on Monday, 24 March the day prior to the girls disappearance.

    The very next day, 2 April 1975, the Washington Post reported that:

    (Quote) From more than 300 callers who responded to publication and televising of the sketch, police said they discerned a "pattern" emerging of a man with a tape recorder approaching young girls in suburban shopping centers. (unquote) and that further: (quote) Police... had received at least 15 phone calls from mothers of teen-aged girls who said their daughters had been "bothered" recently by an man with at tape recorder at suburban Maryland shopping centers. (unquote)

    Subsequent Washington Post articles identified some of those other Maryland shopping centers as being located in Prince Georges County. They were: Marlow Heights Shopping Center and adjacent Iverson Mall, and Bowie Shopping Center.

    It has also been established that after the girls disappearance, witnesses came forward and reported having seen a man fitting the description and actions of TRM at Wheaton Plaza, at White Oak Shopping Center, and at another shopping center - all located in Montgomery County, Maryland - on other occasions prior to 25 March 1975.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    The Tape Recorder Man was seen by a boy identified by police only as "Jimmy" (not his real name) and a friend at Wheaton Plaza talking to Sheila and Katherine Lyon, whom Jimmy knew personally. Here is a summary of what he said about the incident (see full text in the Star article in an earlier post).

    Note, I have placed his story in sequence of how things occurred, rather than in the exact order he told it, because in the interview, he was responding to a reporters questions.

    The reporter also spoke to "Jimmy's" friend (never identifed in the press or by police) who verified the entire story, except that he said that he did not personally hear any of the conversation between the man and the girls.

    "Jimmy's" story:

    "It was about 1 or 2 o'clock. I was out with a friend. We were down near Peoples (Drug Store) and the Orange Bowl (pizza carryout) and we saw the two girls talking to a man with a tape recorder."

    "The man was sitting on the ledge next to an island of bushes in the middle of the plaza. The man was well dressed in a brown suit. I had never seen him before or since."

    "I said to my friend, 'Hey, look over there. I wonder what's going on. It looks like a reporter.' We were joking around that maybe we should go over there and get him to interview us."

    "The man was holding a microphone in his hand between the girls, and asking questions. He had a tan briefcase on the ground. It was one of those hard ones that sat up. The tape recorder was sitting next to the man, out of the briefcase."

    "I heard the man ask one question: ' Are any of you two involved in sports?'"

    " Then ... 30 seconds later I looked back. He was walking away toward Wards (Montgomery Ward) and the girls were walking the other way toward the fountain."

    Links:
    Sheila Lyon - The Doe Network: Case File 64DFMD
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/64dfmd.html

    Katherine Lyon - The Doe Network: Case File 65DFMD
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/65dfmd.html
    Last edited by Richard; 08-11-2008 at 11:17 AM.

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