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The Killing Season - Websleuths

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View Poll Results: Are you convinced by the stungun theory?

Voters
293. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes - I am 100% convinced that a stungun was used

    54 18.43%
  • No - I've read the facts and I'm not convinced

    178 60.75%
  • I have read the facts but I am undecided

    51 17.41%
  • What stungun theory?

    10 3.41%

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  1. #1
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    Do you think a Stungun was used?

    If it could be proved that a stungun HAD been used, then it would make it very unlikely that the Ramseys were involved in Jonbenet's murder.

    However, it has not been proved that a stungun was used. According to the leading expert on stunguns (Robert Stratbucker), the marks do not resemble stungun marks. He did extensive tests on humans and his expertise goes back for a few decades.

    Stratbucker was deposed in Wolf vs Ramsey case, but Lin wood's questioning focused more on his professional ties to Taser Inc who hired him because of his expertise in stunguns.

    The Ramsey expert, Michael Doberson proved himself NOT to be such an expert when it was revealed that in fact, he FAILED to spot stungun marks in a murder case where a stungun had in fact been used. He also famously said that you "cannot tell" from a photograph.

    I did my own tests using a computer graphics program, a steel ruler and the best quality images I could find of Doberson's pig experiment and Jonbenet's autopsy photos. I scaled them all to real size then printed them out on acetate and overlaid them. The pig marks matched the stungun prongs exactly but jonBenet's marks did not - they were much smaller and closer together. I documented my methodology and urged others to replicate it so that they could dispute or corroborate my findings. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has taken me up on that although many criticised my experiment and one person stated that it had "many flaws in logic". That person refused to say what these flaws were - despite being asked 6 times by me.

    I also take issue with the apparent lack of a second mark on Jonbenet's face. Stunguns need to make two contact points to work. Ramsey supporters say the second prong landed on the duct tape and that is why there is only one mark. I asked a physician about this and he said that it is possible that duct tape would act as insulation and that the stungun would not work if one prong landed on duct tape. He conceded that he'd need to know more about the duct tape and the stungun before he could say with absolutely certainty.

    RST also say that there is a little spot of glue on Jonbenet's face and this was where the second prong of the stungun laned - melting the glue on the sticky side of the duct tape. However, the issue I take with this (apart from the possibility that teh duct tape would act as insulation) is that it would be quite compelling if this were the case. So why didn't Lou Smit shout it from the rooftops in defence of his stungun theory? Tests to that glue - even tests to the duct tape would reveal whether heat had been applied to it.

    So here we are - none the wiser. It's almost certainly too late to exhume and perform tests on her tissues.

    So are you convinced by the stungun theory or not?
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    If it could be proved that a stun gun HAD been used, then it would make it very unlikely that the Ramseys were involved in Jonbenet's murder.

    However, it has not been proved that a stun gun was used. According to the leading expert on stun guns (Robert Stratbucker), the marks do not resemble stungun marks. He did extensive tests on humans and his expertise goes back for a few decades.

    Stratbucker was deposed in Wolf vs Ramsey case, but Lin wood's questioning focused more on his professional ties to Taser Inc who hired him because of his expertise in stunguns.

    The Ramsey expert, Michael Doberson proved himself NOT to be such an expert when it was revealed that in fact, he FAILED to spot stun gun marks in a murder case where a stungun had in fact been used. He also famously said that you "cannot tell" from a photograph.

    I did my own tests using a computer graphics program, a steel ruler and the best quality images I could find of Doberson's pig experiment and Jonbenet's autopsy photos. I scaled them all to real size then printed them out on acetate and overlaid them. The pig marks matched the stun gun prongs exactly but jonBenet's marks did not - they were much smaller and closer together. I documented my methodology and urged others to replicate it so that they could dispute or corroborate my findings. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has taken me up on that although many criticised my experiment and one person stated that it had "many flaws in logic". That person refused to say what these flaws were - despite being asked 6 times by me.

    I also take issue with the apparent lack of a second mark on Jonbenet's face. Stunguns need to make two contact points to work. Ramsey supporters say the second prong landed on the duct tape and that is why there is only one mark. I asked a physician about this and he said that it is possible that duct tape would act as insulation and that the stun gun would not work if one prong landed on duct tape. He conceded that he'd need to know more about the duct tape and the stun gun before he could say with absolutely certainty.

    RST also say that there is a little spot of glue on Jonbenet's face and this was where the second prong of the stun gun laned - melting the glue on the sticky side of the duct tape. However, the issue I take with this (apart from the possibility that teh duct tape would act as insulation) is that it would be quite compelling if this were the case. So why didn't Lou Smit shout it from the rooftops in defence of his stun gun theory? Tests to that glue - even tests to the duct tape would reveal whether heat had been applied to it.

    So here we are - none the wiser. It's almost certainly too late to exhume and perform tests on her tissues.

    So are you convinced by the stun gun theory or not?
    I have never been convinced of the:

    stun gun theory

    the enhanced 911 call

    garrote as a AE device

    chronic sexual abuse

    or any intruder theory.

  3. #3
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    I'm not convinced about the stun gun either way.

  4. #4
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    I thought this was an interesting case where both Doberson and Stratbucker testfied for the prosecution. The body was cremated so their testimony was based on photographs.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...dex.php/t-5544

    Source: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/
    ny-lipelo1125,0,2828577.story?coll=ny-topstories-headlines



    Riverhead
    Prosecution rests in Pelosi case

    BY ROBIN TOPPING
    STAFF WRITER

    November 24, 2004, 9:33 PM EST

    Theodore Ammon was repeatedly zapped with a stun gun and the killer may have held him from behind in a choke hold while applying the gun directly to his neck, a Colorado coroner suggested in testimony Wednesday.

    That testimony from Michael J. Dobersen, the medical examiner for Arapahoe County, provides foundation for the prosecution's theory that Daniel Pelosi used a stun gun before killing Ammon in October 2001 in the master bedroom of the millionaire's East Hampton home.

    Dobersen said the stun gun's use and the choke hold scenario was supported by a line of small red marks on Ammon's left lower back, a larger Y-shaped wound on the right side of Ammon's neck and severe fractures to Ammon's larynx.

    Pelosi bought a stun gun in March 2001 and turned one over this year to police. Assistant District Attorney Janet Albertson, who finished presenting her case Wednesday six weeks after testimony began, said Pelosi used such a weapon to incapacitate the larger Ammon before beating him to death.

    Dobersen's testimony backed up prosecution witness Robert Stratbucker, who testified Tuesday. Both men have presented themselves as experts on the effects of stun guns. But Pelosi's defense attorney, Gerald Shargel of Manhattan, sharply attacked Stratbucker's credibility, especially in light of Stratbucker's position as medical director of a company that manufactures stun guns.

    Dobersen, a forensic pathologist who has performed stun-gun experiments on animals with Stratbucker, said he has worked on a half-dozen cases involving the weapons. He said the gun leaves characteristic red points from the gun's twin electrodes and bigger wounds from random arcs of electricity when applied intensely to larger areas.

    Although Stratbucker testified that the Y-shaped wound on Ammon's neck was from the stun gun being held there for several minutes, Dobersen said it was caused by the stun gun moving over the area just above the skin.

    In his cross-examination, Shargel tried to imply that Dobersen was influenced by Stratbucker's conclusions and by prosecutors saying a stun gun was suspected in the case.

    But Dobersen, who has testified in hundreds of murder cases and remained unruffled on the stand, insisted that no matter what anyone told him, "Stun gun would be number one on my list of possibilities."

    Still, he acknowledged that he had differed with Stratbucker on whether a stun gun was used in the case of JonBenet Ramsey, a 6-year-old girl whose 1996 murder in Boulder, Colo., remains unsolved. In that case, Stratbucker said a stun gun was not used, but Dobersen said, "I felt very strongly that these were stun gun wounds."

    Like Stratbucker, Dobersen came to his conclusions on the Pelosi case after reviewing photos of the body and crime scene. He was the last witness before the prosecution rested, with the defense case to begin Wednesday before State Supreme Court Justice Robert W. Doyle in Riverhead.

    []

  5. #5
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    I am convinced that a stun gun had been used on JonBenet (I don't like the use of "100%" in the poll question but, based on the evidence, that designation comes closest to what I think).

    There were three areas on JonBenet's body that were likely injuries from stun gun hits. These were on the right side of the face; on the lower-left back; and on the lower left leg near the ankle. The marks on the back were the clearest to diagnose.

    The size and shape and distance apart of the twin rectangular marks, especially on JonBenet's back, clearly matched the metaL prongs of a Taser brand stun gun.

    I'm not a member of the RST but I'm convinced that JonBenet had been tased. Moreover, I'm convinced that a Ramsey family member was involved in the tasing and the stun gun disappeared with the rest of the missing physical evidence from the crime scene (the tape, the cord, etc.).

    Here's how the coroner described the little rectangular marks in his autopsy report:

    "Located on the right side of the chin is a three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch area of superficial abrasion."

    "On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The more superior of the two measures one-eighth by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch."

    "On the posterior aspect of the lower left leg, almost in the midline, approiximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eighth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively".

    Meyer, after reviewing additional evidence, later agreed that the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries.

    BlueCrab
    Last edited by BlueCrab; 01-06-2006 at 05:19 PM.

  6. #6
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    I agree about the 100%. If it had said "more likely than not" I would have voted for the stun gun being used.

  7. #7
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    Well JonBenet has abrasions on her body and facial area, there is a ligature around her neck indicating she was asphyxiated, also she suffered vaginal trauma, most likely via the paintbrush handle, or digitally.

    So I can match this forensic evidence to the possibility of the abrasions being the result of a stun-gun, the ligature to EA activities, and the vaginal trauma reflecting a sexually motivated assault.

    Currently I know of no stun-gun being found in the Ramsey household, or them ever purchasing one, or even, just as importantly, any of their associates owning one, say for self-defence.

    I am not aware of any evidence of any prior EA activity with JonBenet. I'm certain her doctor or the school nurse would have picked up on any unusual neck weals or abrasions appearing, and from her published pictures, I have not noticed any marks on her neck etc.

    The vaginal trauma she suffered prior to or as she was becoming deceased, may not be sexually motivated. Its purpose may be either to obsfucate prior sexual abuse or fabricate the impression she was the victim of a sadistic pedophile.

    So whilst I can interpret the forensic evidence as being consistent with the use of a stun-gun. The same forensic evidence is open to many other interpretations and explanations.

    So assuming I've read all the facts, and reviewed the available forensic evidence, I find it does not corroborate or substantiate that a stun-gun was used.



    .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    So whilst I can interpret the forensic evidence as being consistent with the use of a stun-gun. The same forensic evidence is open to many other interpretations and explanations.

    UKGuy,

    How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

    IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

    BlueCrab

  9. #9
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    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
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    I just wanted to thank Jayelles for adding an "undecided" option for us fence sitters...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    UKGuy,

    How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

    IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

    BlueCrab
    I agree.
    It's the only one logical that I've heard so far.Do I think 100% a stun gun was used? No.
    Do I think most likely? Yes.

    If anyone can give a more reasonable explanation for these consistent marks ... bring it on,and we can discuss it.

    But so far IMO,a stun gun fits.


  11. #11
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    Stun Gun

    I saw the pictures of the marks on her neck. I don't know what else could have caused those marks other than a stun gun. Also, if the person didn't want to alert any other family members of his presence he would have to use something to keep JonBenet quiet, IMO.

    I don't think the parents had anything to do with her death. IMO, I think that it was possibly someone that JonBenet knew. However, I also wonder if there was a pedophile/killer in the area, because within 9 months of JonBenet's murder, another girl that went to the same dance school as JonBenet was attacked in her own room by a stranger. The police are saying that it couldn't be the person that killed JonBenet because this other girl wasn't murdered. The reason she wasn't murdered is because her mother heard something and interrupted the person before he could do anything harmful. If she hadn't heard anything, I really think that Boulder would have had another child murdered.

    The Boulder police are the reason this case hasn't been solved. They are determined to pin it on the parents and won't look at anything else. That's the impression I've been getting from reading different articles on this case.

    Poor little JonBenet. She went through more in her six years of life than most people go through in their whole life. When I saw the autopsy pictures I couldn't believe that a human being could do that to an innocent little child. The thought of what she went through that night makes me cry. Whoever did this should be put in the yard at the prison and let all the other murderers have a field day with him.

  12. #12
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    I put the 100% in intentionally. I wanted to see who was totally convinced by the evidence as it stands.

    The results will be more interesting that way.

    If you aren't sure about the 100% thing, think of it this way - if you had to incriminate someone on the basis of those marks being made by a stungun - would you feel positive enough to incriminate?
    This is only my opinion

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by loyalalways
    I saw the pictures of the marks on her neck. I don't know what else could have caused those marks other than a stun gun. Also, if the person didn't want to alert any other family members of his presence he would have to use something to keep JonBenet quiet, IMO.

    I don't think the parents had anything to do with her death. IMO, I think that it was possibly someone that JonBenet knew. However, I also wonder if there was a pedophile/killer in the area, because within 9 months of JonBenet's murder, another girl that went to the same dance school as JonBenet was attacked in her own room by a stranger. The police are saying that it couldn't be the person that killed JonBenet because this other girl wasn't murdered. The reason she wasn't murdered is because her mother heard something and interrupted the person before he could do anything harmful. If she hadn't heard anything, I really think that Boulder would have had another child murdered.

    The Boulder police are the reason this case hasn't been solved. They are determined to pin it on the parents and won't look at anything else. That's the impression I've been getting from reading different articles on this case.

    Poor little JonBenet. She went through more in her six years of life than most people go through in their whole life. When I saw the autopsy pictures I couldn't believe that a human being could do that to an innocent little child. The thought of what she went through that night makes me cry. Whoever did this should be put in the yard at the prison and let all the other murderers have a field day with him.
    Welcome loyalalways! Could I ask a wee favour? I have a problem with my eyes and I can't read text in lighter colours. I either have to jumpt through some hoops to adjust my Internet browser Accessibility settings to read them - or scroll by them.
    This is only my opinion

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    UKGuy,

    How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

    IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

    BlueCrab
    BlueCrab,

    Sorry, but absence of evidence does not demonstrate absence of guilt, similarly absence of an alternative to a stun-gun interpretation does not demonstrate that none exists.

    And as I stated above, with no corroborating or externally substantive evidence to conclusively demonstrate that a stun-gun was applied, its not an interpretation that I would feel confident promoting.

    I'm not contradicting you, I'm just suggesting I would not feel comfortable convicting someone on a likely hunch!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy

    I'm not contradicting you, I'm just suggesting I would not feel comfortable convicting someone on a likely hunch!

    UKGuy,

    The stun gun injuries on JonBenet are not hunches. They are evidence. The injuries have been examined, measured, and photographed. Most experts agree they are stun gun injuries. The photos are public information for all to see and comment upon for themselves.

    If you have a credible theory the injuries are something other than stun gun injuries then please advance the theory and we'll discuss it. In the meantime we should consider the injuries to be what the coroner, the experts, the measurements, etc., seem to clearly tell us they are -- stun gun injuries.

    BlueCrab

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