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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I know that Rinder did some terrible things. But he was part of the brainwashed cult. Members who have been in the cult since childhood are victims, in my opinion.

    He rose to heights in this cult because that was what he was trained and brainwashed into doing. Yet at some point he realized it was horribly wrong. Most of them do not have that epiphany ==and if they do, they either kill themselves or run off and hide.

    So I give him great props for speaking out and working hard to undo some of the damage he helped create. And his family is still inside and are now his 'enemies.'

    I don't find him creepy. I feel compassion for him. He was thrown into this mess as a child, by his parents. He did what was expected of him. Children are indoctrinated, intimidated and fed lies and propaganda. So I cannot really blame him for the 'work' he did on his captor's behalf.
    He didn't beat up, stalk, harass and psychologically abuse people when he was a child though. He did that as a fully grown adult with power. He was one of the leaders of this cult and has shown little sorrow for what he consciously chose to do.

    If we are going to excuse things that fully adult people with power do because of their childhoods does that apply to everyone, not just cult members?
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fukiyama View Post
    Mike did time in the Hole. I would think that would be atonement enough.
    Is it though? Kids who commit crimes as children get less leeway than this guy is getting.
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    He didn't beat up, stalk, harass and psychologically abuse people when he was a child though. He did that as a fully grown adult with power. He was one of the leaders of this cult and has shown little sorrow for what he consciously chose to do.

    If we are going to excuse things that fully adult people with power do because of their childhoods does that apply to everyone, not just cult members?
    it's not about excusing the wrongdoings. It's about forgiveness and understanding and respecting the courage it takes to break out of that mindset and the courage it takes to right the wrongs.

    If Mike Rinder committed crimes that he can still be prosecuted for, by all means he should pay his debt to society. But we should all be willing to show him some respect for what he is doing now.
    "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment" - Rumi

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fukiyama View Post
    Mike did time in the Hole. I would think that would be atonement enough.
    The ultimate atonement is what he is doing right now. His knowledge and experience is essential if this cult is to be dissolved.
    "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment" - Rumi

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    That's an interesting perspective. I'm not aware of anything Remini did or didn't do in Scientology to hurt people. But I am aware of Rinder's antics and I admit to feeling off about him and weird. How do you go from being an abusive, harassing monster to being on a show about how people like yourself are so terrible, without anything really in between, like...atonement?

    I have had thoughts about his hypocrisy when I see him talking. Maybe it is about power and revenge for him. He was one of the worst offenders.
    It is my impression that that is the point of doing the show for Mike, atonement by bringing down Scientology.
    There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
    There are known unknowns; there are things we know we don't know.
    There are unknown unknowns; there are things we don't know we don't know.
    And there are unknown knowns; there are things we don't know we know.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    He didn't beat up, stalk, harass and psychologically abuse people when he was a child though. He did that as a fully grown adult with power. He was one of the leaders of this cult and has shown little sorrow for what he consciously chose to do.

    If we are going to excuse things that fully adult people with power do because of their childhoods does that apply to everyone, not just cult members?
    I understand what you are saying about childhoods and not using it as an excuse.

    But I do think that growing up in a cult is a significant factor in how one acts, while working for that cult.

    I agree that we cannot excuse adult sexual offenders, who use the excuse of being sexually abused themselves. We cannot go down that road and allow adults to shrug off responsibility for their own actions.

    But MR was taught as a young child, that he needed to defend himself and his family and his fellow scientologists from the evil world who was trying to destroy them. His actions were reprehensible, and he has admitted as much. He is not proud of his deeds.

    But it was never personal power he was trying to gain. He was trying to protect Scientology, his 'spiritual father.'

    Here is an interesting interview with him. I think it portrays him pretty well:



    Mike Rinder Exclusive Interview On The Macron Show
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I understand what you are saying about childhoods and not using it as an excuse.

    But I do think that growing up in a cult is a significant factor in how one acts, while working for that cult.

    I agree that we cannot excuse adult sexual offenders, who use the excuse of being sexually abused themselves. We cannot go down that road and allow adults to shrug off responsibility for their own actions.

    But MR was taught as a young child, that he needed to defend himself and his family and his fellow scientologists from the evil world who was trying to destroy them. His actions were reprehensible, and he has admitted as much. He is not proud of his deeds.

    But it was never personal power he was trying to gain. He was trying to protect Scientology, his 'spiritual father.'

    Here is an interesting interview with him. I think it portrays him pretty well:



    Mike Rinder Exclusive Interview On The Macron Show
    To me it's hypocritical to excuse this man, because of his upbringing but not other criminals. What makes his childhood worse than a sexual offender who was molested? Or a kid who murders someone or attacks someone or whatever, who came from abuse and neglect?

    I hope this show is atonement for him. I know it's a paycheck. I've seen many of his interviews. He's candid but I've never really gotten a truly remorseful vibe from him. And I've seen the things he did to people and heard about it. He wasn't a small child. He was a fully grown man. Middle aged.

    Finally, I doubt his victims would come forward. They're mostly still in it.

    I believe this guy gets a pass because he's delivering a message we like about a cult we despise. But I have my reservations about the man.
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    To me it's hypocritical to excuse this man, because of his upbringing but not other criminals. What makes his childhood worse than a sexual offender who was molested? Or a kid who murders someone or attacks someone or whatever, who came from abuse and neglect?

    I hope this show is atonement for him. I know it's a paycheck. I've seen many of his interviews. He's candid but I've never really gotten a truly remorseful vibe from him. And I've seen the things he did to people and heard about it. He wasn't a small child. He was a fully grown man. Middle aged.

    Finally, I doubt his victims would come forward. They're mostly still in it.

    I believe this guy gets a pass because he's delivering a message we like about a cult we despise. But I have my reservations about the man.
    One of the things he has talked about, for example in the interview I linked, was that the cult shaped and molded children to be 'non-compassionate.' Being guarded and closed off was the 'proper' way to be, as a scientologist. And he spoke about having that as his current lesson---to try and be more connected and compassionate.

    I don't think it is hypocritical to differentiate between a child, separated from their parents, and raised in a Scientologist boarding school, and someone who was beaten or spanked and mistreated by one's family in childhood.

    I was sexually assaulted by my uncle, our after school baby sitter, from age 5 to about 8 or 9. It was traumatic, and I did act out sexually as a child and I was promiscuous as a teen because of the chaos and confusion. But he was just ONE PERSON that influenced my life. I had wonderful parents and grandparents and cousins and teachers that were supportive and loving and did not ever abuse me. So I had no excuse to become an adult that sexually abused children because I knew it was wrong.

    But a child who is sent to live TOTALLY and completely surrounded and submerged in Scientology, with no other influences, on other voices, no other points of view---they are totally brainwashed and I cannot blame someone for doing what they are told as an adult.

    I only had my uncle teaching me wrong things. But I had 98% of the people around me showing me the right things to do.

    A child in a scientology boarding school has no other input, no other way to view the world. So I am not going to judge them as harshly as I do someone who was mistreated as child, but has other influences, that still ends up choosing to be a criminal.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    To me it's hypocritical to excuse this man, because of his upbringing but not other criminals. What makes his childhood worse than a sexual offender who was molested? Or a kid who murders someone or attacks someone or whatever, who came from abuse and neglect?

    I hope this show is atonement for him. I know it's a paycheck. I've seen many of his interviews. He's candid but I've never really gotten a truly remorseful vibe from him. And I've seen the things he did to people and heard about it. He wasn't a small child. He was a fully grown man. Middle aged.

    Finally, I doubt his victims would come forward. They're mostly still in it.

    I believe this guy gets a pass because he's delivering a message we like about a cult we despise. But I have my reservations about the man.
    Well said.

    I think Rinder has a Psychopathic personality. Not only do I not get a remorseful vibe form him, there are things he has said, and shown... that indicate that he is in fact, proud of his "role' and status within Scientology, even when he knew full well that what he was doing was heinous and criminal.

    I don't feel he is being humanitarian now, so much as he is enjoying getting revenge on David M.

    It reminds me a lot of the movie Goodfellows". Where Henry Hill recounts his role in the Mafia, he was indoctrinated as a child, but he clearly enjoyed his villainous "work", and his personal make-up was one that allowed him to justify what he did (Psychopathic). Only when he realized his "Leader"(s) were out to kill him, did he then turn states evidence.

    This is exactly what I think Mike Rinder is doing. To a Tee. Imo.

    Not so much with Leah, as Mike has even stated that she was not aware of the level of corruption that he was privy to while they were both still "In", but I do feel she has a level of cognitive dissonance between what is excusable behavior for herself and those she associates with, but not excusable in those she deems immoral ect...

    It's extremely unpopular to look at this docudrama with a critical eye as Hive Mentality is singling it's praises all over the web right now, (but I think that's going to change if season two continues on its current trajectory of over edited, heavily scripted, emotionally manipulative, biased coverage).
    Last edited by Safeguard; 09-04-2017 at 11:40 PM.

  10. #25
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    I watched several you tube videos of Mike Rinder. A series of interviews that he did... and I now must admit, that although I still feel revulsion for his behavior towards others, I realize that I cannot possibly understand the effects that his conditioning had on him personally. That is to say, I can only imagine, the effects that those same circumstances may have had on myself, and I cannot imagine myself doing to others, what he did. But I can not say for certain, that I would not have done those (or perhaps worse) things.

    Much like the average person cannot understand how an innocent person could confess to a murder they didn't commit, but there is ample evidence of that phenomena given the right circumstances... I would like to believe that I would never behave like he did, but experience is the biggest killer of theory, as the saying goes, and I must admit I have no idea what effect his life circumstances would have on me, and I can only hope I never really know...

    At one point, in this clip I linked below, where he is explaining how the humiliation, beatings or what-have-you, that he inflicted, was not only so that he himself could survive, (the nightmarish alter-reality that was his existence, is what I am understanding), another day, but he states that he also felt he was, "helping" his victim avoid possibly even more extreme consequences in some twisted belief ( hey there's a good new name for Scientology right there Ha!), that they would get back on track afterward.

    In this one clip he admits that he cannot even explain the dreadful totality of what he lived, even to himself, but he gives it what seems to me, to be a good shot, where one can at least catch a glimpse of the utter insanity and confusion that is the daily bread of those ensnared in this cult. I no longer feel quite as certain that he was born lacking empathy. He may well have had to discard it to survive, much like the plight of battered spouses or children. I only hope going forward that they give these same thoughtful considerations to those still ensnared in the cult, as that strikes me as a weakness in the docudrama.

    https://youtu.be/4rfUlL0_TCQ
    Last edited by Safeguard; 09-05-2017 at 05:37 AM.


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safeguard View Post
    Ok...So, I avoided watching The Aftermath (after having been sucked into Making A Murderer), for a couple reasons...

    For one thing, I saw Going Clear, had read plenty about the (ahhmmm), "Church" of Scientology and compelling as the evidence of cultism is, Nothing. Ever. Changed. The COS just rolled right along, enjoying it's tax-exempt status. Secondly, I felt the victims of the COS signed up for the ride, I honestly never thought about those who might have been born into it...

    I first heard about LRH through the commercials on TV. Started reading Dianetics, and thought, " oh boy! this guy is a genius! Got less than half way through, and went, " Oh man! This guy is insane! Researching LRH led me to Alister Crowley. Well, well, well...

    I finally binge watched season 1. ( and what little there is of season 2), Here are my observations:

    What I find outstanding about the series, is that they are shedding light on, and really clarifying, the tactics of abusers of all shapes and sizes. So many people who leave abusive relationships, of ANY kind, often face the harsh glare of condemnation for having been in that predicament at all... " why did you stay so long? Why did you get involved at all? Why did you not see, what is so obvious to "the rest of us"? You must have done something to "deserve" this.

    People need to believe this could never happen to them. I was one of those people. But once you are "kicked off the Boat Dock of complacency, so to speak, you can never go back to the innocent believe that "Bad things happen to "Other People", people who have "DONE SOMETHING" to deserve their misfortune. Or who could have avoided it, but didn't have the common sense, or fortitude to do so. The truth is, all of us have a weak link in our armor somewhere.

    Abusers are predators that easily spot weakness. ( "Like A Lion Spots A Limp"). Anything at all will do. Even the simple belief,
    "I think I could be a better person" is exploitable.

    As for the show...

    I'm gonna put it right out there, (as usual), and say that I dislike Mike Rinder. I'm glad that he's no longer torturing people, but I have no doubt that he took pride in it, when he was doing it, and he had to have known that it was immoral and/or criminal. .Anyone who has" knowingly" abused others, in the name of Scientology,or not, should have to answer for that. ( And not just with a hit TV show and all kinds of accolades).

    Rinder knew what he was doing, he reports what he did, in such a way that leaves no doubt that he was aware of the plot. And I have seen him look almost... proud, when some of his exploits are being reveled.

    He wasn't "brainwashed" into thinking he was a "doing good" the whole time. You can clearly see that.

    Leah Remini seems different in that respect, at least. Rinder is even pointing out, "Leah didn't know about this, or that... ( But HE did).

    I am also frankly uncomfortable with Mike and Leahs "Work" relationship.

    I find it very inappropriate for a married man. Leah has made references such as, we're up all night talking, we eat breakfast together, lunch, coffee, dinner.... "I'm always calling mike, we're always saying this and that....It is almost as if this mission to save the world from the COS is more important than Mikes relationship with his wife... I find that ironic to say the least.

    They are deeply intimate. There is no mistaking that. This "mission" will not bode well for Mikes marriage imo. Apparently they still cannot see, what is so very apparent to "outsiders".

    I also feel the show could be improved if Leah would stop interjecting herself while victims are speaking. "I'm sure you did that because"... "I know you felt this".. "the church caused you to believe that"... I wish she would just let them tell the stories...

    I was heartbroken for the young woman who wanted to voice her pain about her belief that she could have done something more to save her friend from committing suicide, but Leah cut her off, with "Don't you dare even say it!" And then went on to tell her how there was nothing she could have done, and it was not her fault ect...but she never got to speak those words. Her biggest regret. And she needed to, she TRIED to. Not letting people speak, talking over people is a huge flaw in the show.

    My last observation, an admittedly petty one, I am distracted by Leah's talons. I'm surprised she has not put out an eye with those things when delicately dabbing at her under-eye area with a tissue. What is up with that?! Is that the latest style? Uhhgggg!

    I hope the show is the "nail in coffin" for Scientology. I think it is one of the most important public service campaigns ever created on the topic of abuse. I love that the show is bringing a sense of humor, and hope to the very real recovery that abused people everywhere can reach for. Beyond grim survival, life can be good, and sweet and fun again.
    I think that if you watch last nights round table discussion, "The Bridge to Total Freedom", it was more about how the COS recruits, and the process that one takes to be indoctrinated. It also delves in to the way the church creates a sort of mass hysteria method of teaching. That if you don't get it, then you must be a suppressive person and are forced to leave the COS. This way of teaching, will only force people to "pretend" that they are seeing the results, as advertised. And finally, explained Xenu!!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddeshred View Post
    I think that if you watch last nights round table discussion, "The Bridge to Total Freedom", it was more about how the COS recruits, and the process that one takes to be indoctrinated. It also delves in to the way the church creates a sort of mass hysteria method of teaching. That if you don't get it, then you must be a suppressive person and are forced to leave the COS. This way of teaching, will only force people to "pretend" that they are seeing the results, as advertised. And finally, explained Xenu!!
    That was a really interesting round table discussion. I could not believe how much money was 'stolen' from the cultists each year. wow
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I understand what you are saying about childhoods and not using it as an excuse.

    But I do think that growing up in a cult is a significant factor in how one acts, while working for that cult.

    I agree that we cannot excuse adult sexual offenders, who use the excuse of being sexually abused themselves. We cannot go down that road and allow adults to shrug off responsibility for their own actions.

    But MR was taught as a young child, that he needed to defend himself and his family and his fellow scientologists from the evil world who was trying to destroy them. His actions were reprehensible, and he has admitted as much. He is not proud of his deeds.

    But it was never personal power he was trying to gain. He was trying to protect Scientology, his 'spiritual father.'

    Here is an interesting interview with him. I think it portrays him pretty well:



    Mike Rinder Exclusive Interview On The Macron Show
    I listened to the entire show, thanks. At the end of the show, he talks about his blog site at mikerindersblog.org . I'm reading some of that, and the comments.

  14. #29
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    I'll bring my perspective in to this. I grew up in a fundie religion. I absolutely judged people as an adult, refused to speak to them because they "betrayed" our "religion". I am 100% guilty for telling people my religion would save them and 100% guilty for judging people inside my religion.


    Mike Rinder was 100% blinded by his religion. He believed what he was doing was right just as I thought I was right. The bible told me so it must be true.

    I firmly believe there is a disconnect between belief and critical thinking.

    Did MR do bad things yes, so did I. But you have to understand there is a "mental block" if you will when it comes to certain religions and how/what an individual is taught.

    It's sucks. I will forever for the rest of my life regret bringing people into my "cult" but the gods honest truth if one believes in god I thought I was 100% helping them. sigh

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