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  1. #31
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    Didn't Robert Shulman confess to the Yonkers victim?
    http://www.lohud.com/story/news/crim...ller/28353213/

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    Sorry, I meant that the cases overlapped in a lot of ways and there were a number of these overlapping cases besides the three that police say Bittrolff was involved in, which involved that.

    There seems to be a pattern that evolves a bit with what seem like trivial differences. Here is a very partial list.

    Start with Jessica Manners found naked and strangled with semen in her body. Slightly different because she was 14 years old but similarity is there. Police arrest Christopher Loliscio and he admits he had sex with her but says he did not kill her. A brief look at the evidence strongly supports him not being the killer.

    From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-victim.html



    Then the ones police say Bittrolff killed

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...-case-murders/



    http://www.indyeastend.com/Articles-...SE-KILLER.html



    And then this from shortly after Tangredi and McNamee.


    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.702864



    Since the victim that was identified http://buffalonews.com/1995/12/14/di...im-identified/ Melani Vilavencencio does not appear anywhere on Google except for that article, I'm guessing it is 'unsolved'.

    Note http://www.indyeastend.com/Articles-...SE-KILLER.html



    More likely, if brain matter were expelled, they were choked to death first then bashed with some object. Very difficult to break the skull clean open without some object. Is it a trivial mistake Leser made?

    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/c...ils-1.13701086



    My guess is that
    1) it would be very rare for two separate killers to take shoes from their victims. That by itself should be enough to call several of the other murders probably related to Tangredi and McNamee.
    2) It would be very rare for a killer to both strangle and smash the skull of a victim. So if there are multiple bodies, the 3 Bittrolff was accused of and the three that don't seem mentioned elsewhere, with smashed skulls they are probably related.

    Also, it is important to remember that the detectives who gave evidence to convict Bittrolff were employed, and promoted, at a time when you did not get promoted for competence. They were detectives who did as they were told, including, and there seems to be plenty to support this, fabricating evidence.

    Everything about this looks like a group of police officers who followed victims, from Jessica Manners on, and arranged the crimes to appear a certain way. From the culture of scpd at that time it may well have been several cops acting more or less independantly but in sort of competition or rivalry, discussing amongst themselves what they did within the protected walls of their little mafia.

    It seems certain, just from reading the statements of Leser and Gierasch, that something they are hiding about these murders is significant.


    Here's the tldr version




    Lisk may be a loose knit group of cops who discussed their crimes amongst each other. It seems like a very strange thing, but an analogy would be similar crimes in wartime. You can find people who served in various wars who will brag about raping and killing women. Maybe brag is the wrong word. In those cases you had a group of guys with absolute authority to do anything, with the absolute certainty that their buddies would back them up with literally no limits or restrictions. When these guys are in their little group, while they have power, there is a rush they get from being able to do certain things at will. It seems likely that scpd may have had groups like that.
    Thanks for the clarification. A group can be likely. I personally enjoy your posts because it is making me think about alternatives. I have strongly believed Bittrolff to be guilty & you are making me waver in that conviction.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SageRhiannon View Post
    Didn't Robert Shulman confess to the Yonkers victim?
    http://www.lohud.com/story/news/crim...ller/28353213/
    Actually I noticed there were a bunch of serial killers arrested at that time, but I didn't know one or more of those three apparently related killings was attributed to one of them.

    So is Melani Vilavencencio considered to be one of his victims? Why is there only one mention of her on Google, and that from an upstate paper?

    -

    Anyway, considering all things, a person should draw conclusions from evidence and not from convictions. A conviction only means the police were able to convince a jury. Facts weigh more than sleight of hand.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    Actually I noticed there were a bunch of serial killers arrested at that time, but I didn't know one or more of those three apparently related killings was attributed to one of them.

    So is Melani Vilavencencio considered to be one of his victims? Why is there only one mention of her on Google, and that from an upstate paper?

    -

    Anyway, considering all things, a person should draw conclusions from evidence and not from convictions. A conviction only means the police were able to convince a jury. Facts weigh more than sleight of hand.
    The details of Melani Vilavencencio in the article you posted seem to be exactly the same as Kelly Sue Bunting (found in a dumpster in Melville by someone searching for a lottery ticket, Melani tattoo). Kelly Sue Bunting is another victim of Shulman. Maybe she used an alias & the article you found was before they found her legal name? But by all accounts, it appears to be the same victim. This link details Kelly Sue Bunting's discovery by the man looking for a lottery ticket:

    https://www.leagle.com/decision/200576ny3d117

  5. #35
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    Thanks I'll research that.

    The most disturbing part of these cases is when you research the defense lawyers.

    You kind of start to get a sense of how it is going to end before you even get to the trial, like a family calls police and says "We couldn't find a babysitter so we left the infant with our pitbull and when we came back the baby was gone".

    add

    ... then the police catch "the kidnapper" and "prove he is guilty" at trial...

    edit to add 2

    I just read a little of your link and am boggled. This body also had baking soda or soddium bicarbonate, then another had calcium carbonate or chalk, and the bodies police tried to put on Bittrolff had what bphotos indicate are a powder, but which police then used chicanery to portray as woodchips?
    Last edited by Abcdefgh; 08-31-2017 at 04:39 PM.

  6. #36
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    An interesting sidenote to the link you posted.

    both of her hands had been cut off .... Because there was no way to fingerprint the victim...
    If I recall at least one of the girls supposedly killed by Bittrolff had been arrested shortly before she was killed, for prostitution.

    The difficulty identifying this girl, and the mistakes along the way, are odd.

    It would be interesting to compare the time frame between "last arrest for prostitution" and "time of disappearance" and see if there is a statistical likelihood thatbeing arrested for prostitution at that time and place had a lethality that diminished quickly after a year or two comparing different causes of death.

  7. #37
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    One last thing I'm curious about and am having a hard time finding information on.

    Did either Shulman or Steven Lavalle http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.760592 ever challenge their confessions?

    My guess is that both might be guilty, but there are some real absurdities in claims the police made about LaValle and Shulman seems the type who could be made to confess to anything convincingly.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    One last thing I'm curious about and am having a hard time finding information on.

    Did either Shulman or Steven Lavalle http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.760592 ever challenge their confessions?

    My guess is that both might be guilty, but there are some real absurdities in claims the police made about LaValle and Shulman seems the type who could be made to confess to anything convincingly.
    Shulman did not challenge his confession. And the physical & circumstantial evidence against him were overwhelming. Plus his brother plead guilty to helping him dispose of the bodies. But I can see why the suspicion given who his attorney was. It is possible that Tangredi & McNamee could be Shulman. Some believe there were more victims attributed to him. But neither of them were dismembered, which seemed to be Shulman's preferred method of disposal. I am not familiar with LaValle so I can't comment on that.

    I have speculated on here that Shulman's brother may have continued his brother's killing style and be responsible for some of the victims along Ocean Parkway.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SageRhiannon View Post
    Shulman did not challenge his confession. And the physical & circumstantial evidence against him were overwhelming. Plus his brother plead guilty to helping him dispose of the bodies. But I can see why the suspicion given who his attorney was. It is possible that Tangredi & McNamee could be Shulman. Some believe there were more victims attributed to him. But neither of them were dismembered, which seemed to be Shulman's preferred method of disposal. I am not familiar with LaValle so I can't comment on that.

    I have speculated on here that Shulman's brother may have continued his brother's killing style and be responsible for some of the victims along Ocean Parkway.
    The connection between the bodies Bittrolff and Shulman were convicted of is stronger than the evidence against Bittrolff.

    edit to add

    And it is bizarre that Keahon, who, acting as Bittrolff's lawyer ostensibly, helped deflect scrutiny of the supposed dna evidence by declaring it was valid despite his client's claims of innocence... also represented Shulman.

    How does a guy with such obvious connections to the prosecution defend two killers who are accused of killing girls which indications are may have been killed by one or more police officers?

    -

    It looks like some higher level police became aware that a police officer was killing a certain kind of women, and they created a suspect to cover those killings, perhaps telling the cop something like 'we got your back on those, now stop doing that', but the person kept on killing. It is much more common than most people suspect for police to rape and even kill women who are on the fringes, and it is the norm in most police departments for police officers who do that to not be investigated publically.
    Last edited by Abcdefgh; 09-01-2017 at 11:41 AM.

  10. #40
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    Sorry to harp on the police so much, I know people on this website are generally very uncritical of police. I don't think anybody should be held to an especially higher or lower standard than anybody else, and I think it's a shame that people blindly accept facts presented by certain police no matter how much good cause there is to doubt those facts.

    If the general public just looked at the facts against Bittrolff, in this case for example, with the same eyes they look at the police with, if each were held to the same standards of evidence, there would be no case so far. At the very least the police would have to prove that the dna evidence that they 'enhanced' is from the same person who committed the crime. And they would have to explain the unbelievable similarity between victims attributed to several killers, and they would have to open up their internal affairs paperwork regarding police who have commited rapes during that time period. None of that of course is going to happen, for the simple reason that nobody is willing to demand that police be held to some standard of integrity. It is so tiring to hear police say they hold themselves to some high standard, but you almost never see a police officer question corruption.

    Bittrolff might be innocent or guilty, we have no way of knowing. He had a lawyer who was basically a shill for the prosecution. He was convicted on 'enhanced' evidence not supported by anything that a person would normally expect. All of the pretrial promises of 'additional evidence' and 'things that would be revealed at trial' turned out to be utter nonsense. If he is guilty then shouldn't they have to prove it in a fair trial with honest lawyers? Or at least some reasonable questioning of the facts police presented? Or should people start holding police to that standard? There are a lot of police, many, who have commited serious crimes and do not have to worry about the overwhelming evidence that is available, much less do they have to worry about possibly fictional evidence.


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    Sorry to harp on the police so much, I know people on this website are generally very uncritical of police. I don't think anybody should be held to an especially higher or lower standard than anybody else, and I think it's a shame that people blindly accept facts presented by certain police no matter how much good cause there is to doubt those facts.

    If the general public just looked at the facts against Bittrolff, in this case for example, with the same eyes they look at the police with, if each were held to the same standards of evidence, there would be no case so far. At the very least the police would have to prove that the dna evidence that they 'enhanced' is from the same person who committed the crime. And they would have to explain the unbelievable similarity between victims attributed to several killers, and they would have to open up their internal affairs paperwork regarding police who have commited rapes during that time period. None of that of course is going to happen, for the simple reason that nobody is willing to demand that police be held to some standard of integrity. It is so tiring to hear police say they hold themselves to some high standard, but you almost never see a police officer question corruption.

    Bittrolff might be innocent or guilty, we have no way of knowing. He had a lawyer who was basically a shill for the prosecution. He was convicted on 'enhanced' evidence not supported by anything that a person would normally expect. All of the pretrial promises of 'additional evidence' and 'things that would be revealed at trial' turned out to be utter nonsense. If he is guilty then shouldn't they have to prove it in a fair trial with honest lawyers? Or at least some reasonable questioning of the facts police presented? Or should people start holding police to that standard? There are a lot of police, many, who have commited serious crimes and do not have to worry about the overwhelming evidence that is available, much less do they have to worry about possibly fictional evidence.
    Agreed

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    The connection between the bodies Bittrolff and Shulman were convicted of is stronger than the evidence against Bittrolff.

    edit to add

    And it is bizarre that Keahon, who, acting as Bittrolff's lawyer ostensibly, helped deflect scrutiny of the supposed dna evidence by declaring it was valid despite his client's claims of innocence... also represented Shulman.

    How does a guy with such obvious connections to the prosecution defend two killers who are accused of killing girls which indications are may have been killed by one or more police officers?

    -

    It looks like some higher level police became aware that a police officer was killing a certain kind of women, and they created a suspect to cover those killings, perhaps telling the cop something like 'we got your back on those, now stop doing that', but the person kept on killing. It is much more common than most people suspect for police to rape and even kill women who are on the fringes, and it is the norm in most police departments for police officers who do that to not be investigated publically.
    There is no doubt in my mind Shulman is guilty. The evidence was overwhelming, plus you have 2 confessions in that case. Him & his brother. To believe in a vast conspiracy involving LE with that case, you would have to have 3 different LE county jursidictions involved (Nassau, Suffolk & Westchester) which Is unlikely. More than one SK have worked at overlapping times in the past (even with similar MOs) including Long Island, so it is not an unusual occurence.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SageRhiannon View Post
    There is no doubt in my mind Shulman is guilty. The evidence was overwhelming, plus you have 2 confessions in that case. Him & his brother. To believe in a vast conspiracy involving LE with that case, you would have to have 3 different LE county jursidictions involved (Nassau, Suffolk & Westchester) which Is unlikely. More than one SK have worked at overlapping times in the past (even with similar MOs) including Long Island, so it is not an unusual occurence.
    I'm sorry to be rude and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I have not gone over the evidence in this case but I may.

    First, I'm sure you are aware, a lot of innocent people do get convicted of crimes

    http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....s-do-the-math/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...d8a_story.html

    about 4.1% of convictions are of innocent people, but there is another factor.

    That number is actually lower for mild crimes. So if you are convicted of shoplifting there is a less than 4.1% chance you are innocent. But for crimes that involve strong emotions, like murder, the percentage of wrongful convictions is higher, probably because there is a lower standard for evidence. I can find a link for that last point if you like.

    Anyway, as I say, I have not reviewed this case. I remember reading that he confessed under duress, they said they would attack his brother unless he confessed. So that should add some question. Also a brief search on google

    Robert Shulman, 45 – who faces trial in two more murders – was sentenced yesterday to die by lethal injection by Suffolk County Court Judge Arthur Pitts. The final date will probably be pushed back by a long appeals process through state and federal courts.

    The former Hicksville postal worker boldly proclaimed his innocence.

    “I am not a coward,” he said after sentencing. “God knows I didn’t do this. That gives me peace of mind.”
    If you know how things work there, the Suffolk police get confessions from almost 100% of their suspects. In other cities the rate of confessions averages less than 40%.

    So there is doubt about how valid his confession was.

    Forensics I don't know, I'll search google tomorrow if I remember. I know that several Suffolk forensics experts have been caught giving what amounted to false testimony in other cases, but as is usually the case with police, they do not lose their job, nor even face discipline. I guess they just blush and say "oops I got caught". Was that the case with Shulman? It remains to be seen.

  14. #44
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    I agree 100% that innocent people get convicted of murder all the time and that Suffolk County has a high rate of murder confessions, but after you get a chance to read the investigation & evidence against Shulman, I am sure you will reach the conclusion that he is 100% guilty. In addition to initially confessing to the 3 murders, he went on to confess to 2 other murders. He also plead guilty at trials in Suffolk & Westchester counties. He said he felt horrible & apologized to victims' families upon his initial arrest. The only appeal is in his case was for a reduction of his death penalty sentencing. His brother also plead guilty in helping dispose of bodies and was sentenced to prison time. Yes SCPD is riddled with corruption. IMO it is probably one of the most corrupt in the country. But do I believe every LE officer there is corrupt, certainly not. And I do believe they got it right with Shulman. JMO

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SageRhiannon View Post
    I agree 100% that innocent people get convicted of murder all the time and that Suffolk County has a high rate of murder confessions, but after you get a chance to read the investigation & evidence against Shulman, I am sure you will reach the conclusion that he is 100% guilty. In addition to initially confessing to the 3 murders, he went on to confess to 2 other murders. He also plead guilty at trials in Suffolk & Westchester counties. He said he felt horrible & apologized to victims' families upon his initial arrest. The only appeal is in his case was for a reduction of his death penalty sentencing. His brother also plead guilty in helping dispose of bodies and was sentenced to prison time. Yes SCPD is riddled with corruption. IMO it is probably one of the most corrupt in the country. But do I believe every LE officer there is corrupt, certainly not. And I do believe they got it right with Shulman. JMO
    I've spent a few minutes googling and so far everything I can find is problematic for the prosecution.

    1) He supposedly had quite a bit of cash in his bank account. Detectives said they did not know where the money came from.

    I remember in the '80s running into an old friend who had spent a while smoking crack. He had a great job, making a lot of money, but he spent every last cent, down to the penny, on crack. Years later in the 2000s I remember another guy who had a family and a fair amount of money until he got into crack. When I met him he had nothing but debts. He told me in some length how fast the money went and what a drop.

    So... Shulman had a sum of money in his bank account that would have been consistent with him having saved a fair amount of his earnings from a 30k a year postal job. He didn't have a lot more or a lot less, he had about what you would expect for somebody who was a thrifty saver. And yet, he was smoking crack with prostitutes at least from '91 until he was 'caught'? I doubt it.

    2) Sorry to use statistics, but there are problems with the bodies attributed to him. Two unidentifieds that closed sticky cases? A person should be skeptical.

    3) Several of the bodies, and possibly all of them, are most certainly associated with other bodies the police were aware of but which he was not charged with. Highly problematic.

    4) Victim found Dec 1994 had her leg severed midway between the knee and groin. This has implications that would only have been ignored by the prosecution for a reason.

    5) Sorry for statistics again, but finding 1 body in a dumpster that somebody rummaged through to find a lottery ticked suggests that there were several bodies placed in dumpsters that were not rummaged through.

    etc

    The confession far crosses into the absurd. It is a bunch of big kids trying to get a little kid to admit something absurd, but they don't even have a sense of the ridiculousness.


    In his own handwriting, defendant also inscribed three photographs from the Bunting investigation (two of the dumpster where Kelly Sue Bunting's remains were discovered; one of her body at the morgue) with statements admitting to his dismemberment and disposal of the body, and signed his name.
    That's theater, not confession and

    When one of the detectives suggested to defendant that he should "[g]et away from the lie about blacking out, [which was] just not believable," he agreed, stating that he had not blacked out but instead had "just lost control" and sometimes felt anger and rage.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The entire case seems to rest on the following

    on April 7 and April 8, 1996 the police executed a search warrant for defendant's room, which was photographed, partially disassembled and transported to various divisions of the crime lab. There they discovered evidence of drug use, baking soda, calcium carbonate, air fresheners, carpet cleaners, and hundreds of apparent bloodstains on the walls, ceilings and surfaces of practically every freestanding item. Through DNA analyses, various stains were determined to be consistent with the DNA profiles of Jane Doe Medford, Lisa Ann Warner or Kelly Sue Bunting.
    My guess would be that the forensics were managed by the same person who handled Bittrolff's forensics, that Shuler's lawyer who was also Bittrolff's lawyer, gave the forensics crew adequate cover in court, and that all of the crime scene photographs from Shuler's case were 'lost'.

    edit to add

    One last point and then I will drop this.

    On reviewing the legal type papers online, it is clear that his defense was not based on facts but on technicalities. In other words the defense tried to portray him as a guilty person trying to 'use the law' to escape punishment.

    Two other cases, Bittrolff and Esar Met or 'Samar' who was convicted of killing Hser Ner Moo in Salt Lake city, have the same feature.

    The question a person should ask first is whether or not the person is actually factually guilty. Not whether their rights were violated in this or that way, which only serves as a distraction to cloud the issues.

    Was Shuler crazy? Who cares, that was his business. Was he improperly treated with regard to the law, perhaps pressured into confessing? He may have been, but again not relevent to his guilt.

    Was he actually guilty? The evidence is very strong that he did not commit all of the murders attributed to him, and further research may indicate that he commited none of them.

    I'm burned out on this stuff for now but will follow the issue and hope that somebody does honest research on it.
    Last edited by Abcdefgh; 09-03-2017 at 02:40 PM.

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