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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2


    New York Times: SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Tex. — Law enforcement officers investigating the mass shooting at a church that killed 26 people here said on Monday that “a domestic situation” within the gunman’s family may have motivated the killing.



    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/u...urch.html?_r=0


    Please add updates if you can so everyone can get caught up in the first few posts.

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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

    ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

    This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


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    Last edited by thepinkdragon; 11-06-2017 at 06:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT
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    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.

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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
    Considering he admittedly intentionally assaulted his wife and infant step-child I am very surprised that there wasn't a felony charge. Since they lived on base it was under the jurisdiction of the Security Forces (Air Force Police); which explains why there weren't civilian criminal charges as well.


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    Last edited by thepinkdragon; 11-06-2017 at 06:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    Considering he admittedly intentionally assaulted his wife and infant step-child I am very surprised that there wasn't a felony charge. Since they lived on base it was under the jurisdiction of the Security Forces (Air Force Police); which explains why there weren't civilian criminal charges as well.
    There may have been a formal felony charge and conviction, but it is not clear.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that he was handled administratively. Thus, while he admitted to the facts for assault, he could have been given an administrative, non judicial finding of guilt, and a non judicial punishment.

    This might explain why he passed the background checks as an administrative military conviction for assault may still allow someone to legally purchase weapons. Military criminal convictions, however, bar such a person.

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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
    I forgot to add that this wasn't an Article 15.; those are usually at the company level and there can be extra duty. A field grade Article 15 is usually a precursor to a court martial however. It usually involves reduction in rank and pay and if the investigating officer finds cause for a summary court martial it escalates from there. He was convicted by court martial and under confinement for a year. After he served his sentence he was then discharged.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    I forgot to add that this wasn't an Article 15.; those are usually at the company level and there can be extra duty. A field grade Article 15 is usually a precursor to a court martial however. It usually involves reduction in rank and pay and if the investigating officer finds cause for a summary court martial it escalates from there. He was convicted by court martial and under confinement for a year. After he served his sentence he was then discharged.
    He may well have been. The reports do say "court martial". At the same time, battalion commanders can also hold Article 15 administrative procedures and assign a penalty of 1 year confinement, bad conduct discharge.

    Then factor in that he may have started out as a judicial Court Martial with the potential for a criminal conviction, but then moved to an administrative Article 15 with the maximum punishment being given.

    The report also refers to a 'Colonel'. Battalion commanders are Lieutenant Colonels. The more senior Colonel officer implies a full Court Martial. In the end, I think it is best to wait for the military to clarify whether it was administrative or judicial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
    Maybe it was a plea deal.
    Also from the article.
    “He pled to intentionally doing it.”
    This syntax, instead of "pled guilty", seems to imply admitting the facts in an administrative hearing (article 15) and not a full court martial.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 11-06-2017 at 07:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    He may well have been. The reports do say "court martial". At the same time, battalion commanders can also hold Article 15 administrative procedures and assign a penalty of 1 year confinement, bad conduct discharge.

    Then factor in that he may have started out as a judicial Court Martial with the potential for a criminal conviction, but then moved to an administrative Article 15 with the maximum punishment being given.

    The report also refers to a 'Colonel'. Battalion commanders are Lieutenant Colonels. The more senior Colonel officer implies a full Court Martial. In the end, I think it is best to wait for the military to clarify whether it was administrative or judicial.


    This syntax, instead of "pled guilty", seems to imply admitting the facts in an administrative hearing (article 15) and not a full court martial.
    Dude. No.

    Under Pentagon rules, information about convictions of military personnel in crimes like assault should be submitted to the FBI's Criminal Justice Investigation Services Division.
    Earlier in the day, authorities said they were trying to determine why a court-martial for assaulting his first wife and her child did not prevent Kelley from buying a Ruger AR-556 rifle used in the attack.
    Federal gun regulations prohibit anyone with a domestic violence conviction, even at a misdemeanor level, from purchasing a gun, and Kelley was found guilty in 2012 of two charges of assault after an Air Force court-martial, according to officials. He was confined in a military prison for a year, given a bad conduct discharge and reduced in rank.



    https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/nati...455643723.html
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
    Administrative punishments do not include time. NJP is not the same as an administrative punishment. It is the mid-range between that and court martial. This guy was court martialed.

    The man authorities have identified as the shooter in the massacre at a Texas church was given a bad conduct discharge from the Air Force three years ago after being court-martialed for assault, a military spokesperson confirmed Sunday.

    Kelley was convicted and sentenced to 12 months in custody and given a bad conduct discharge, Stefanek said. He was discharged in 2014.

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-alleged-texas-shooter-was-court-1509937194-htmlstory.html

    Likewise, his discharge status indicates court martial, not NJP or administrative discipline:

    NJP is used by commanders to deal with misconduct issues that are too serious to be dealt with using administrative corrective procedures, but are minor enough to not necessarily be appropriately handled through a full court-martial prosecution.

    While it is often neglected as area of concern by many attorneys, this is a mistake. NJP is one of the most powerful disciplinary tools used by commands to punish servicemembers for “crimes” while avoiding a formal court-martial proceeding.3 As such, the practical ramifications for servicemembers facing NJP can be serious.

    http://nlgmltf.org/military-law/2014...ourts-martial/

    Punitive Discharges. Punitive discharges are authorized punishments of courts-martial and can only be awarded as an approved court-martial sentence pursuant to a conviction for a violation of the UCMJ. There are two types of punitive discharges: Dishonorable Discharge (DD) -- which can only be adjudged by a general court-martial and is a separation under dishonorable conditions; and Bad-Conduct Discharge (BCD) -- which can be adjudged by either a general court-martial or a special court-martial and is a separation under conditions other than honorable.

    Administrative Separations. Administrative separations cannot be awarded by a court-martial and are not punitive in nature. Enlisted personnel may be administratively separated with a characterization of service (characterized separation) or description of separation as warranted by the facts of the particular case.

    https://www.thebalance.com/military-...rt-iii-4056918

    This guy was not allowed to own a gun.
    Last edited by gitana1; 11-06-2017 at 07:45 PM.
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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    "Our church was not comprised of members or parishioners. We were a very close family. We ate together, we laughed together, we cried together, and we worshipped together," said Pomeroy. "Now most of our church family is gone, our building is probably beyond repair. And the few of us that are left behind lost tragically yesterday. As senseless as this tragedy was, our sweet Belle would not have been able to deal with losing so much family yesterday."
    "Please don't forget Sutherland Springs," she said.


    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...n-a-small-town

    JMO, OMO, MOO, etc., etc........


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    Administrative punishments do not include time. NJP is not the same as an administrative punishment. It is the mid-range between that and court martial. This guy was court martialed.

    The man authorities have identified as the shooter in the massacre at a Texas church was given a bad conduct discharge from the Air Force three years ago after being court-martialed for assault, a military spokesperson confirmed Sunday.

    Kelley was convicted and sentenced to 12 months in custody and given a bad conduct discharge, Stefanek said. He was discharged in 2014.

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-alleged-texas-shooter-was-court-1509937194-htmlstory.html

    Likewise, his discharge status indicates court martial, not NJP or administrative discipline:

    NJP is used by commanders to deal with misconduct issues that are too serious to be dealt with using administrative corrective procedures, but are minor enough to not necessarily be appropriately handled through a full court-martial prosecution.

    While it is often neglected as area of concern by many attorneys, this is a mistake. NJP is one of the most powerful disciplinary tools used by commands to punish servicemembers for “crimes” while avoiding a formal court-martial proceeding.3 As such, the practical ramifications for servicemembers facing NJP can be serious.

    http://nlgmltf.org/military-law/2014...ourts-martial/

    Punitive Discharges. Punitive discharges are authorized punishments of courts-martial and can only be awarded as an approved court-martial sentence pursuant to a conviction for a violation of the UCMJ. There are two types of punitive discharges: Dishonorable Discharge (DD) -- which can only be adjudged by a general court-martial and is a separation under dishonorable conditions; and Bad-Conduct Discharge (BCD) -- which can be adjudged by either a general court-martial or a special court-martial and is a separation under conditions other than honorable.

    Administrative Separations. Administrative separations cannot be awarded by a court-martial and are not punitive in nature. Enlisted personnel may be administratively separated with a characterization of service (characterized separation) or description of separation as warranted by the facts of the particular case.

    https://www.thebalance.com/military-...rt-iii-4056918
    This guy was not allowed to own a gun.


    hi my dear

    i hope you and yours are getting thro

    none of these rules and laws matter

    we are going to imo balls dropped all over

    well see

    i dont see how he could not end up involved
    with military mental health folks who missed

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    Administrative punishments do not include time. NJP is not the same as an administrative punishment.
    I guess it just depends on how one uses the term 'administrative'.

    Non judicial punishments don't involve juries or judges, and don't need to involve witnesses or probative evidence (though they may well often do include these things). That sounds pretty 'administrative' like to me.

    But, yes, the formal term is probably 'Non Judicial Punishment'. In the end, non judicial punishment (administrative by most, but not all definitions of the term) can have a punishment of one year in prison (but that place may not technically be a prison).
    Last edited by Cryptic; 11-06-2017 at 10:14 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
    want to be very respectful here


    this is military cover up

    breaking a kids skull


    thats manslaughter

    as his stuff broke

    this is not a family conflict

    this is a very sick man

    i have been at delusional

    am moving psychotic episodes

    skull is really hard

    here we are

    acute untreated mental illiness


    again

    and so it goes

    again

    animals too

    we are in for a horrid ride my friends

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    Quote Originally Posted by CARIIS View Post
    want to be very respectful here


    this is military cover up

    breaking a kids skull


    thats manslaughter

    as his stuff broke

    this is not a family conflict

    this is a very sick man

    i have been at delusional

    am moving psychotic episodes

    skull is really hard

    here we are

    acute untreated mental illiness


    again

    and so it goes

    again

    animals too

    we are in for a horrid ride my friends
    Thank you CARIIS. Peace. Prayers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT


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    My dad called me last night.
    He was in the Army and he is mad!
    He says the military has "gone soft" and they are a bunch of cowards for not dishonorably discharging him.
    He also said he hopes everyone involved in that process is sweating in their boots!

    MOO

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