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  1. #1
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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2


    New York Times: SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Tex. — Law enforcement officers investigating the mass shooting at a church that killed 26 people here said on Monday that “a domestic situation” within the gunman’s family may have motivated the killing.



    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/u...urch.html?_r=0


    Please add updates if you can so everyone can get caught up in the first few posts.

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    Texas Shooting Thread #1
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  2. #2
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    thepinkdragon is offline Verified US Army Veteran/Certified Veteran's Mental Health & PTSD Advocate
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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

    ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

    This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


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    Last edited by thepinkdragon; 11-06-2017 at 06:17 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT


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    My dad called me last night.
    He was in the Army and he is mad!
    He says the military has "gone soft" and they are a bunch of cowards for not dishonorably discharging him.
    He also said he hopes everyone involved in that process is sweating in their boots!

    MOO

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  5. #5
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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
    Considering he admittedly intentionally assaulted his wife and infant step-child I am very surprised that there wasn't a felony charge. Since they lived on base it was under the jurisdiction of the Security Forces (Air Force Police); which explains why there weren't civilian criminal charges as well.


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    Last edited by thepinkdragon; 11-06-2017 at 06:23 PM.

  6. #6
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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pamela_Brewer View Post
    My dad called me last night.
    He was in the Army and he is mad!
    He says the military has "gone soft" and they are a bunch of cowards for not dishonorably discharging him.
    He also said he hopes everyone involved in that process is sweating in their boots!

    MOO

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    I agree with him 100%. I KNEW there was a reason I couldn't find the record. They disabled that quick, fast and in a hurry.



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  7. #7
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    That domestic violence conviction kept him from obtaining concealed carry permit in the state of TX permanently the way I read it.

    Below is the list:

    The handgun licensing law sets out the eligibility criteria that must be met. For example, an applicant must be eligible to purchase a handgun under the State and Federal laws (including an age restriction of 21), however an exception is granted to active members of the military who are age 18 and over. Additionally, a number of factors may make a person ineligible (temporarily or permanently) to obtain a license, including:

    felony convictions (permanent) and Class A or B misdemeanors (5 years, permanent in cases of domestic violence), including charges that resulted in probation or deferred adjudication;
    pending criminal charges (indefinite until resolved);

    chemical or alcohol dependency (defined as 2 convictions for substance-related offenses in a 10-year period; 10-year ban from the date of the first conviction);

    certain types of psychological diagnoses (indefinite until the condition is testified by a medical professional as being in remission);

    protective or restraining orders (indefinite until rescinded); or

    defaults on taxes, student loans, child support and/or other governmental fees (indefinite until resolved).[6]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    Considering he admittedly intentionally assaulted his wife and infant step-child I am very surprised that there wasn't a felony charge. Since they lived on base it was under the jurisdiction of the Security Forces (Air Force Police); which explains why there weren't civilian criminal charges as well.
    There may have been a formal felony charge and conviction, but it is not clear.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that he was handled administratively. Thus, while he admitted to the facts for assault, he could have been given an administrative, non judicial finding of guilt, and a non judicial punishment.

    This might explain why he passed the background checks as an administrative military conviction for assault may still allow someone to legally purchase weapons. Military criminal convictions, however, bar such a person.

  9. #9
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    TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I don't know.

    Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

    Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

    3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
    I forgot to add that this wasn't an Article 15.; those are usually at the company level and there can be extra duty. A field grade Article 15 is usually a precursor to a court martial however. It usually involves reduction in rank and pay and if the investigating officer finds cause for a summary court martial it escalates from there. He was convicted by court martial and under confinement for a year. After he served his sentence he was then discharged.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

    https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

    ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

    This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    From my earlier link here are the definitions used on legaldictionary.net:

    "Bad Conduct Discharge
    A Bad Conduct Discharge (“BCD”) can only be levied on a service member who is court-martialed for bad conduct. In general, an individual convicted by court martial is given a BCD as further punishment, following a sentence in military prison. In this case, the veteran is not eligible for any VA benefits. Bad Conduct Discharge is a punitive discharge.

    Dishonorable Discharge
    A military service member who is court-martialed for actions determined to be reprehensible may be given a Dishonorable Discharge. In fact, the only way such a discharge can be levied is by general court martial, during which it may be included as part of the sentence. An individual who is dishonorably discharged is not eligible for any VA benefits, and may find it difficult to gain employment in the civilian sector. A Dishonorable Discharge is a punitive discharge."


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  11. #11
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    from the last thread -
    rsd1200 wrote:
    "Not being snarky, at all, but I don't think that I could ever heal from losing my child, then combined with the fact that he had murdered 27 people, no, I'd never heal."

    I agree totally. Other parents of mass murderers have stated they'd give their lives in a moment if it could bring back the deceased. It does make me wonder if the primary intent of a crime such as this is to mentally and emotionally punish his parents for the rest of their lives. Knowing nothing about them, of course I can't say for sure but just imaging - to be haunted by guilt, what could they have done differently, what went wrong, should've they known, were there signs, etc something no parent could ever truly know the answers to.

  12. #12
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    Ann Stefanek, a spokeswoman for the Air Force, confirmed that Kelly was court-martialed in 2012 on two charges of assaulting his spouse and their child. He was confined for a year, reduced in rank to airman basic E-1 and given a bad conduct discharge in 2014, Stefanek said."
    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/te...ooting-n817751

    Quote Originally Posted by thepinkdragon View Post
    From my earlier link here are the definitions used on legaldictionary.net:

    "Bad Conduct Discharge
    A Bad Conduct Discharge (“BCD”) can only be levied on a service member who is court-martialed for bad conduct. In general, an individual convicted by court martial is given a BCD as further punishment, following a sentence in military prison. In this case, the veteran is not eligible for any VA benefits. Bad Conduct Discharge is a punitive discharge.

    Dishonorable Discharge
    A military service member who is court-martialed for actions determined to be reprehensible may be given a Dishonorable Discharge. In fact, the only way such a discharge can be levied is by general court martial, during which it may be included as part of the sentence. An individual who is dishonorably discharged is not eligible for any VA benefits, and may find it difficult to gain employment in the civilian sector. A Dishonorable Discharge is a punitive discharge."

  13. #13
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...y-members.html

    I believe this answers a few questions. They have named several victims in this lengthy article.

    "The Shields family were not present during worship on Sunday when the massacre unfolded, but spoke to investigators after."

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  14. #14
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    My heart is broken. Where will it happen next . Thanks to my WS friends.


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    Bringing over this post from the previous thread, and another article about the grandmother’s life. She seemed such a happy lady.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3615014

    Post# 963, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...4#post13740254
    Inthedetails:
    MIL wasn't in church, but his wife's grandmother was, and she was killed.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3615014
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