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Thread: Separating FACT from fiction

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda7NJ View Post
    Enhanced 911 call

    Not fact

    The 911 call was enhanced.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    There is WAY too much for us to catch you up on. I can suggest reading 1 or 2 books. They are a quick read. Read "JonBenet & The City of Boulder" by Steve Thomas (available in paperback online and also in bookstores) and rent the DVD of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town". It is not too long, and will give you a very good feel for the characters and house. I got mine on Netflix, but I am sure you'd find it elsewhere. Go to the website :
    http://www.acandyrose.com
    There is TONS of info there, including interviews with the Ramseys, photos of the house, the autopsy report, etc.
    Steve Thomas wrote, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation

    Unless he was made to change the name, or wrote another book....

    www.forumsforjustice.org has a ton of archived information that would be helpful if you are still interested in catching up

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by vlpate View Post
    Steve Thomas wrote, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation

    Unless he was made to change the name, or wrote another book....

    www.forumsforjustice.org has a ton of archived information that would be helpful if you are still interested in catching up
    That was the subtitle, I think.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Always.



    Yes. According to statements in everything from Perfect Murder, Perfect Town to various interview transcripts, the fibers were analyzed chemically and spectrographically.


    What did the tests reveal or that more close to vest info.?

  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    POLICE can say anything they want. Lawyers have to play it straight.



    I do know it. That seems to be the problem between you and me!


    The lawyers have to play it straight comment sent me into shock. I guess being from Texas our lawyers seem to have a flair for the flamboyant courtroom dramatics side of law. Better actors than Hollywood. Lawyer jokes about their honesty, integrity, and pay abound.


    It is the way you phrase something that intimates another meaning. Police interrogations are well documented on TV on several crime shows.

    They never come out and say we have a perfect match to your footprint and the shoe you have on. The say something vaguer like we know you were there, we can put you there after the killings, why don't you tell us what really happened that night.

    They don't WANT you to know, or your LAWYER to know what evidence they will be bringing to court against you for as long a time as possible.

    If you have a lawyer present during police questioning your lawyer can demand to know exactly what evidence they have. You may also ask them yourself if alone ,but (and this is the big but) they DO NOT HAVE TO TELL YOU. Your lawyer yes, you no. If they don't want to tell your lawyer they will refuse and tell the lawyer to get it under discovery and arrest you right then and there. As long as they have compelling evidence and the prosecutor is willing they can charge you.
    Shoe prints are pretty solid, provided a good sample was left behind.

    A prosecutor is going to want as much evidence as possible and will often participate in police questioning of a subject especially if the subject has lawyered up.

    Regardless of making yourself look guilty in the eyes of public opinion. I would advise all people to have a lawyer present during any investigation of something like murder of a close family member.


    Regardless of guilt or innocence you will be investigated FIRST. Even in the case of Polly Klaas where witnesses who saw the kidnapper enter the slumber party, tie them up and kidnap Polly. He was checked into quickly as well. Since he was at home and his alibi easily verified he was off the list before he could have retained council. A formal interview down at police headquarters is when you need a lawyer. If anything else you can establish to the prosecutor that you are serious about cooperating and protecting the rights of not only yourself but the justice for your lost loved one. This initial meeting should not be adversarial in nature, to me LW didn't approach it that way, and that is what think gave the R's a very bad public opinion right from the start.

    I believe the R's followed the advice of their attorneys and the delays and reasons people point to their guilt is because LW played the legal wrangling game very well. He was tough and not in the least bit sensitive to what the public thought only how he could win and bill the most.

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    The lawyers have to play it straight comment sent me into shock. I guess being from Texas our lawyers seem to have a flair for the flamboyant courtroom dramatics side of law. Better actors than Hollywood. Lawyer jokes about their honesty, integrity, and pay abound.


    It is the way you phrase something that intimates another meaning. Police interrogations are well documented on TV on several crime shows.

    They never come out and say we have a perfect match to your footprint and the shoe you have on. The say something vaguer like we know you were there, we can put you there after the killings, why don't you tell us what really happened that night.

    They don't WANT you to know, or your LAWYER to know what evidence they will be bringing to court against you for as long a time as possible.

    If you have a lawyer present during police questioning your lawyer can demand to know exactly what evidence they have. You may also ask them yourself if alone ,but (and this is the big but) they DO NOT HAVE TO TELL YOU. Your lawyer yes, you no. If they don't want to tell your lawyer they will refuse and tell the lawyer to get it under discovery and arrest you right then and there. As long as they have compelling evidence and the prosecutor is willing they can charge you.
    Shoe prints are pretty solid, provided a good sample was left behind.
    .
    You do realize that real life investigations are sometimes different from what you see on TV, even "true crime" shows. They are TV- enough said.
    Police do not have to tell you or your lawyer what evidence they have unless you are indicted. NOT just for questioning. If and when you are indicted, the lawyers go through the discovery process, where the prosecution reveals the evidence. This must be complete and honest, or a guilty verdict can be thrown out and all the LE hard work is in vain.
    Yes, all suspects should have a lawyer present, and police should always make sure to read each suspect their "Miranda Rights" stating such. If a suspect chooses to speak to police without a lawyer present despite being advised against this, what he says can be used against him in court, regardless of whether his lawyer likes it or not.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  9. #107
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    My point is in a similar situation a person should be cooperative with the police if you are a statistical suspect, or circumstantial suspect. Yes bring an attorney, but make sure the police know you would like to clear your name off their list what can we do to help you do that.

    Answer all questions truthfully, even embarrassing ones, about yourself or someone else involved.

    LW did not take that approach. I imagine his policy about this kind of client goes like this.

    Do not ask and tell them not to tell you anything about your guilt or innocence, a conflict of interest occurs if I represent both of you. Because I don't ask and you don't tell I am prepared to defend you in all aspects of where this might lead. Quick resolution or long and lengthy battle.

    In his own self interest $$$$$$$ LW takes the it is going to be, because I am going to make be, a long battle.

    He has to assume his client is not guilty and in order to cover both ends of the spectrum he takes the parental cooperation with as complete and total limits.

    He is trying to prevent his client from being a suspect and limit any self incriminating evidence gained by questioning.

    He did better at the latter than the fore.

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    What did the tests reveal or that more close to vest info.?
    Kane and Levin told the Rs what the tests revealed: they were chemically and microscopically identical to articles of clothing the Rs wore.
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

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  12. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Kane and Levin told the Rs what the tests revealed: they were chemically and microscopically identical to articles of clothing the Rs wore.


    I thought the police refused to reveal the fiber evidence even when the lawyers said tell us what you have or we won't answer any questions in regards to it.

    I know a lot of books have been written by different people involved in the case. It seems that all have a hidden agenda, well some are not so well hidden and rather blatant.

    Steve Thomas dismisses the "scream" heard by Melody Stanton a year or so later when he spoke to her and she says something about psychic energy being the source of the scream.

    The Brown fibers Shilling writes about --- are they real and can they be verified by BPD?

    I expect fibers from the family to be on JBR. When John found her he goofed up the whole crime scene when he moved her, and especially when he moved the tape. There are photos of the blanket in the basement with a piece of duct tape on it. Was this the tape that covered her mouth?

    The fact that it came into contact with the blanket could easily explain the presence of the fibers on it.

    I expect to find fingerprints from family members all over the house, they lived there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    I thought the police refused to reveal the fiber evidence even when the lawyers said tell us what you have or we won't answer any questions in regards to it.

    I know a lot of books have been written by different people involved in the case. It seems that all have a hidden agenda, well some are not so well hidden and rather blatant.

    Steve Thomas dismisses the "scream" heard by Melody Stanton a year or so later when he spoke to her and she says something about psychic energy being the source of the scream.

    The Brown fibers Shilling writes about --- are they real and can they be verified by BPD?

    I expect fibers from the family to be on JBR. When John found her he goofed up the whole crime scene when he moved her, and especially when he moved the tape. There are photos of the blanket in the basement with a piece of duct tape on it. Was this the tape that covered her mouth?

    The fact that it came into contact with the blanket could easily explain the presence of the fibers on it.

    I expect to find fingerprints from family members all over the house, they lived there.
    Nothing explains Patsy fibers tied into the knot & in the paint tray. Nothing.

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  15. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda7NJ View Post
    Nothing explains Patsy fibers tied into the knot & in the paint tray. Nothing.
    Transfer------. The killer is wearing gloves that ATTRACT fibers. Put on a pair(latex) and run your hand over a table or piece of leather, some non fabric item in your home. See how many fibers stick to the gloves. Now run your hand over some fabrics, carpet, upholstery, items now exam it. The latex acts as an electrostatic to attract the fibers. Remember as kids how you would rub a balloon on your head to make it "stick" to the wall. It is also dependent upon the humidity of the room as to how "charged" the gloves would become.

    I also can not find a reliable source stating these fibers were found in the knot. Is there anything released from BPD about them? Please post link.


    I don't totally trust Steve Thomas book as the Bible on this case.

    He was sued along with his publisher and both agreed to terms we are not privy to to "settle case".

    IMO he tried to put some false info out there in order for the R's to come up with an "explanation" that would have been obviously false as the evidence was false.

    He did profit from the book and it has also been said he resigned before he could be fired.

    His book causes some problems if he is ever called to testify in a trial of a JBR killer. What he wrote has to match up to what he testifies to or his testimony will look very shady and suspicious.

    He didn't care enough to keep his mouth shut and not damage the case. He could have written down all the evidence he claims are against the R's and given copies to a lawyer. Waited for the rest of his life ( if need be) in respect to JBR and not mess up the case any further.
    His need or greed for money and to be heard is why he wrote the book.
    He acted like a pitbull does when they have prey down and by the throat.
    Even when others he worked with cautioned him his ideas could not be proven as conflicting evidence existed he choose not to listen and proceeded anyway.

    Why did he change occupations, is there perhaps something in his employment files that would make him undesirable to another PD?
    Ignoring direct orders, falsification of evidence, etc.

    I am leery of sources that have an agenda and he and all the other book authors have one.

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  17. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    I thought the police refused to reveal the fiber evidence even when the lawyers said tell us what you have or we won't answer any questions in regards to it.
    Sure sounds like they revealed a lot to me:

    MR. LEVIN: I can state to you, Mr. Wood, that, given the current state of the scientific examination of fibers, that, based on the state of the art technology, that I believe, based on testing, that fibers from your client's coat are in the paint tray.

    MR. WOOD: Are you stating as a fact that they are from the coat or is it consistent with? What is the test result terminology? Is it conclusive? I mean, I think she is entitled to know that when you ask her to explain something.

    MR. KANE: It is identical in all scientific respects.

    MR. WOOD: What does that mean? Are you telling me it is conclusive?

    MR. KANE: It is identical.

    MR. WOOD: Are you saying it is a conclusive match?

    MR. KANE: You can draw your own conclusions.

    MR. WOOD: I am not going to draw my own conclusions.

    MR. KANE: I am saying it is identical.

    MR. WOOD: Well, what you are saying in terms of how you interpret a lab result may or may not be the lab result. If you have it, let's see it. I would be glad to let her answer a question about it, but I don't want to go into the area of where we are dealing with someone's interpretation of something that may not be a fact and have her explain something because she can't explain something that might be someone's opinion or someone's interpretation. She can try to answer something if you are stating it as a matter of fact.

    MR. LEVIN: Well, I believe that Mr. Kane's statement is accurate as to what
    the examiner would testify to.

    MR. WOOD: Will he testify that it is a conclusive match?

    MR. KANE: Yes.

    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, I have scientific evidence from forensic scientists that say that there's fibers in the paint tray that match your red jacket. I have no evidence from any scientist to suggest that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket.


    As for Wood saying, "show us what you have or we won't talk about it," that's what he's supposed to do. I wouldn't have revealed anything to him, either. I honestly think Mr. Wood did his clients a big disservice by stonewalling.

    As a sidenote, Schiller's book mentioned as early as 1999 that chemical and microscopic analysis had been performed.

    I know a lot of books have been written by different people involved in the case. It seems that all have a hidden agenda, well some are not so well hidden and rather blatant.
    What's that got to do with anything?

    The Brown fibers Shilling writes about --- are they real and can they be verified by BPD?
    I have no idea.

    I expect fibers from the family to be on JBR.
    We all would. Except they WEREN'T. That's what I keep trying to tell people. The only places the fibers are mentioned are in places that they should not be in. Places that, according to IDI, they could not have been in because, supposedly, those items were never in the house until that night.

    When John found her he goofed up the whole crime scene when he moved her, and especially when he moved the tape. There are photos of the blanket in the basement with a piece of duct tape on it. Was this the tape that covered her mouth?
    As far as we know.

    The fact that it came into contact with the blanket could easily explain the presence of the fibers on it.
    That might explain the fibers on the tape. And I stress "might." But nothing explains the fibers in the knot and paint tray. Patsy Ramsey tried, except her story is contradicted by the writings of her own husband. Wendy Murphy summed it up when she said that Patsy's story would require "flat-out magic" in order to work.

    I also can not find a reliable source stating these fibers were found in the knot. Is there anything released from BPD about them? Please post link.
    Will the quotes above do? I don't see what's more reliable than two prosecutors with winning records and reputations for ethics who are FORBIDDEN from lying, because they know they'll be censured if they do.

    I don't totally trust Steve Thomas book as the Bible on this case.
    IMO he tried to put some false info out there in order for the R's to come up with an "explanation" that would have been obviously false as the evidence was false.
    I doubt it. The info we're talking about wasn't in his book. It wasn't tested until after he had left.

    it has also been said he resigned before he could be fired.
    I'm not aware of anyone with any credibility who has said that. He resigned for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was that his health was deteriorating.

    His book causes some problems if he is ever called to testify in a trial of a JBR killer. What he wrote has to match up to what he testifies to or his testimony will look very shady and suspicious.
    Agreed.

    He didn't care enough to keep his mouth shut and not damage the case. He could have written down all the evidence he claims are against the R's and given copies to a lawyer. Waited for the rest of his life (if need be) in respect to JBR and not mess up the case any further.
    Not that I disagree with you, but I can understand WHY he did what he did. It's always better to do something, even if it's wrong, than to do nothing. It was people doing nothing that's put this case in the damn lousy shape it's in. I can't say I would have done any different. In fact, I'd have gone even further. I'd have turned in my badge, taken a gun with blanks in it, walked into Alex Hunter's office, fired a few shots, and said "I quit!" while he was cowering under the desk. But now that I think of it, as big an a*****e as Hunter was and with as many people as he'd p****d off in his years as DA, he'd probably have a REAL gun in his desk.

    His need or greed for money and to be heard is why he wrote the book.
    I don't know about the first, but definitely the second.

    He acted like a pitbull does when they have prey down and by the throat.
    I wish the same could be said for the DA's office.

    Even when others he worked with cautioned him his ideas could not be proven as conflicting evidence existed he choose not to listen and proceeded anyway.
    Given WHO was telling him that, I can't say I blame him.

    Why did he change occupations, is there perhaps something in his employment files that would make him undesirable to another PD?
    It's a lot simpler than that, CathyR. He was so soured by this case, he didn't WANT another job in law enforcement. He even turned down an offer when it was made.

    I am leery of sources that have an agenda and he and all the other book authors have one.
    I won't take that personally.
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  19. #113
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    I am doing more research and went to the library. I got Steve's book and the PMPT book.

    I got the John Douglas book cases that haunt us and another one that just looked interesting the will to kill.

    I have a lot of reading, in addition to trying and clean up my messy house after a day with all 3 grandbabies. The youngest is almost a year old and the oldest is 16 months old. I have food all over the floor, toys, etc.

    Got some good news grand baby #4 is on the way and should be here in May.

    I am really shocked the way Steve portrays the entire judicial system in Boulder.


    Didn't know you are an author! Sorry, and I'm glad you aren't taking it personally, feel like I shoved my size 8 into my mouth all the way up to the knee joint.

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  21. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    Super
    I am doing more research and went to the library. I got Steve's book and the PMPT book.

    I got the John Douglas book cases that haunt us and another one that just looked interesting the will to kill.
    Excellent!

    I have a lot of reading, in addition to trying and clean up my messy house after a day with all 3 grandbabies. The youngest is almost a year old and the oldest is 16 months old. I have food all over the floor, toys, etc.
    I wish you the very best.

    Got some good news grand baby #4 is on the way and should be here in May.
    Keep us informed! And congrats!

    I am really shocked the way Steve portrays the entire judicial system in Boulder.
    Before I say anything else, what shocked you about it, specifically?

    Didn't know you are an author! Sorry, and I'm glad you aren't taking it personally, feel like I shoved my size 8 into my mouth all the way up to the knee joint.
    Oh, heck! Don't beat yourself up. Besides, I haven't gotten it published yet.
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  22. #115
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    Maybe I should have phrased that better.
    I am shocked the justice system in Boulder is so PC to the point of not prosecuting and plea bargaining anything.

    I have finished Steve's book and have moved to PMPT.

    Grandbaby #3 is in hospital for gastroenteritis. She had been sick about a week before she became so lethargic that her parents took her to hospital. She is such a tiny thing too. She weighed 15 lbs before she got sick and lost a lb in a week. She is on IV therapy but still has diarrhea and is not eating much. They want to release her today but I told my son to fight it until she is eating well and no longer has diarrhea. She can not afford to lose any more weight and her immune system is obviously stressed. She is better but being the overprotective Gramsey is my job.

    I know some of you said prayers as you read this so Thank You and May God Bless You too.

    I must continue reading so I'll be back in a few days.

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  24. #116
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    Cathy R: Grandbaby #3 is in hospital for gastroenteritis.

    snipped by me
    Cathy thanks for sharing that, we will all keep her and your family in our prayers. I was just a Mom when JonBenet was killed and it was terrible, now I am a Granny and it is even more of nightmare thinking about the horror she went through. I always wondered why Nedra and Don Paugh didn't do much, much more than they did (if anything), I would be jumping up and down begging the police to turn over every stone, I would be screaming at my son and daughter in law to get their a** down to the police station and clear themselves so the investigation would focus on finding the real killer. The Ramsey family, in laws and friend's lack of urgency and concern in quickly catching this monster is why I can't get past someone in that family did this. I hope I can be proved wrong, but someone has to continue to investigate for that to happen and I am not sure anyone is even working on it anymore. This vent is moo.

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  26. #117
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    Cathy, I'm sorry to hear about your little granddaugher, for sure will be praying for her quick recovery. Prayer works miracles! This is a fact that I'm well aware of.

    Becky, I agree with your statement, I also wasn't a grandmother when JB died, both my girls were in their teens, but now that I have grandchildren of my own, the Paugh's lack of reaction to JB's death actually bothers me more than P&J's! That may sound weird to some folks, but I guess you have to be a grandparent to understand. My world would come to an end if any of my babies died for any reason, but if they were murdered in this fashion, I would fight to the death to find out who did it and see that they paid.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

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    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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  28. #118
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    Cathy, my prayers for your grandbaby, I hope she stays in the hospital till she is firmly out of danger. Dehydration can be so dangerous for babies. My own daughter was briefly hospitalized for the same thing when she was 11 months old. She was on an IV for 2 days. I stayed right in her room. The good thing is that with proper treatment, kids recover very well from it. I hope your grandbaby will be well soon.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  30. #119
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    Thanks everyone! Prayers have been answered favorably. Thank You most Lord Jesus for the power of prayer!
    She went home last night and I will see her today. I have avoided the hospital as I have been fighting a cold and didn't want to throw that into the mix.

    I don't think John and Patsy listened to anyone's advice excepts their lawyers. I'm sure the lawyers were thorough as well, and told them many will offer it, order it, or demand you do differently but under all circumstances you are to take my advice above all others. That is what you are paying for.

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  32. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    Thanks everyone! Prayers have been answered favorably. Thank You most Lord Jesus for the power of prayer!
    She went home last night and I will see her today. I have avoided the hospital as I have been fighting a cold and didn't want to throw that into the mix.

    I don't think John and Patsy listened to anyone's advice excepts their lawyers. I'm sure the lawyers were thorough as well, and told them many will offer it, order it, or demand you do differently but under all circumstances you are to take my advice above all others. That is what you are paying for.
    Cathy, I'm grateful to our good Lord for answering our prayers for your granddaughter.
    You're are certainly right on the Ramsey's listening to their lawyers advice as I believe that's what kept them out of jail. Just reading other cases here on Websleuths is enough to convince me that one of them would have been arrested immediatley had it not been for their excellant legal advice. This leads me to say that I'm glad that not all these killers and molesters can afford the best in legal defense. If they could, nobody would ever have to pay for their crimes.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

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    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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  34. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    This leads me to say that I'm glad that not all these killers and molesters can afford the best in legal defense. If they could, nobody would ever have to pay for their crimes.
    Oh, they'll pay. One way or the other. Hell awaits- no reservations needed- all pedophiles are welcome.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  36. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    Maybe I should have phrased that better.
    I am shocked the justice system in Boulder is so PC to the point of not prosecuting and plea bargaining anything.
    I think we all were when we found out.

    Grandbaby #3 is in hospital for gastroenteritis. She had been sick about a week before she became so lethargic that her parents took her to hospital. She is such a tiny thing too. She weighed 15 lbs before she got sick and lost a lb in a week. She is on IV therapy but still has diarrhea and is not eating much. They want to release her today but I told my son to fight it until she is eating well and no longer has diarrhea. She can not afford to lose any more weight and her immune system is obviously stressed. She is better but being the overprotective Gramsey is my job.

    I know some of you said prayers as you read this so Thank You and May God Bless You too.
    I sure was.
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  38. #123
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    I was thinking about the intra-thoracic petechial haemorrages as indicated in the pm, were they due to the asphyxiation or caused by trauma such as a fall or hitting a hard surface?

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  40. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne11 View Post
    I was thinking about the intra-thoracic petechial haemorrages as indicated in the pm, were they due to the asphyxiation or caused by trauma such as a fall or hitting a hard surface?
    Hi,

    I think the petechial hemorrages were caused due to the asphyxiation. Petechial hemorrages are in general terms a sign of asphyxia caused by some external means of obstructing the airways e.g a garrotte.
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  42. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne11 View Post
    I was thinking about the intra-thoracic petechial haemorrages as indicated in the pm, were they due to the asphyxiation or caused by trauma such as a fall or hitting a hard surface?
    If you mean the ones found in the lungs (you refer to inter-thoracic), trauma and hitting a hard surface do not cause petechiae anyway, but when found in the lungs, they are typical of asphyxia. Falling from a great distance and hitting a hard surface will cause internal bleeding, but petechiae are not the same thing as internal bleeding.
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