"I would never do that!"

It is clear from reading the forums that there are many of us who think the Ramseys behaved in an unusual way on and since the 26th December 1996.

Many of us say that we would have searched the house straight wawy - I know I would have hesitated to call the police and I would have been paranoid about the thought that the kidnappers were watching the house.

What I find very odd though is that John Ramsey *allegedly* saw the basement window open and closed it - and didn't mention this till much later. He also *allegedly* saw a strange vehicle from the window and didn't think to mention this either.

I think that if one of my children disappeared from the house and I found a possible entry point - I would have raised the alarm immediately:-

• an entry point might yield forensics
• the kidnapper might have his forensics on file
• an identifiable perp is easier to catch
• I might get my child back quickly and unharmed

So why did John Ramsey not mention this till later? Why did he *allegedly* close the window and remain silent about it?

Was it because he felt guilty that he had been careless about security?
Was it because he is stupid?
Was it because there was no open window?
Other?

This does not make sense to me at all. What if the strange vehicle HAD belonged to the perp and John Ramsey let them get away by remaining silent?

Jayelles said:

What I find very odd though is that John Ramsey *allegedly* saw the basement window open and closed it - and didn't mention this till much later.

Click to expand...

Jayelles,

John appears to be flat-out lying about finding the window open. According to John he discovered the window open during a solo visit to the basement "sometime" that morning after the police arrived (he obfuscates about what time it was when he was in the basement that morning).

But Officer French searched the basement a few minutes after 6:00 AM specifically looking for a point of entry by a kidnapper and didn't find the window open. If the window in the train room had been open French would have seen it and reported it. That's what he was looking for. There were only two windows in the basement -- the window in the train room and the window in the powder room at the foot of the stairs.

John is caught in another lie.

BlueCrab

I agree JR did some either really dumb things or lied about them. But here is my question and maybe it's been asked before. But, if you really thought that your child would die if you called the police or close friends to come over, would you have waited to call the police, waited for the kidnappers to call, give them money, and think you'd get your child back and kept the police out of it?

I think I wouldn't have called anyone if I really thought I had a shot at getting my child back and just followed all of the directions. I don't have kids but what would have been the right thing to do in their situation, let's say they really did think their child was kidnapped? What have families done in the past. For ex: in the Lindbergh kidnapping, what did they do?

I've been reviewing PMPT-And here is my second question, if no one knew about that wine cellar, then why was it checked out right away by FW?? Did he know about it because they were close friends? I mean, did they even keep wine in there? What would have been the purpose of FW knowing about that room in the first place?? How hard was it to get to or to find? When they say it had a latch on the door, was it a locked latch? If not, why wouldn't the police officer opened it up originally? Just because it had a latch on the door, the police officer decided not to open it up? Was LE that dumb??

Just a few lingering questions I have.

ellen13 said:

I've been reviewing PMPT-And here is my second question, if no one knew about that wine cellar, then why was it checked out right away by FW?? Did he know about it because they were close friends? I mean, did they even keep wine in there? What would have been the purpose of FW knowing about that room in the first place?? How hard was it to get to or to find? When they say it had a latch on the door, was it a locked latch? If not, why wouldn't the police officer opened it up originally? Just because it had a latch on the door, the police officer decided not to open it up? Was LE that dumb??

Click to expand...

ellen13,

The wine cellar was no secret to anyone. It's a rumor that grew legs and became a "fact" that the room was hidden. The door to the room is in plain sight.

When a person walks down the stairs to the basement and reaches the basement floor the door to the wine cellar is directly down the hall facing him. It was painted white and couldn't be missed.

When Officer French searched the basement at about 6:00 AM and unlatched the wooden stick used as a lock on the door and tugged on it the door wouldn't open because it was jammed tight on the carpet at the bottom. Since the door was locked from the outside French knew no intruder was in the room nor could an intruder have have escaped from the windowless room, so he didn't force the door open.

A few minutes later, at about 6:20 AM, when Fleet White searched the basement he forced the door open, leaned in and looked, but didn't see anything unusual in the darkened room. However, to this day Fleet insists that, despite the darkened room, he would have seen JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket just several feet into the room HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab said:

ellen13,

The wine cellar was no secret to anyone. It's a rumor that grew legs and became a "fact" that the room was hidden. The door to the room is in plain sight.

When a person walks down the stairs to the basement and reaches the basement floor the door to the wine cellar is directly down the hall facing him. It was painted white and couldn't be missed.

When Officer French searched the basement at about 6:00 AM and unlatched the wooden stick used as a lock on the door and tugged on it the door wouldn't open because it was jammed tight on the carpet at the bottom. Since the door was locked from the outside French knew no intruder was in the room nor could an intruder have have escaped from the windowless room, so he didn't force the door open.

A few minutes later, at about 6:20 AM, when Fleet White searched the basement he forced the door open, leaned in and looked, but didn't see anything unusual in the darkened room. However, to this day Fleet insists that, despite the darkened room, he would have seen JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket just several feet into the room HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info about that door!! Well, isn't it true that JR yelled out before he even turned the light on?? Or was that what ST said and is it a fact?

Jayelles said:

So why did John Ramsey not mention this till later? Why did he *allegedly* close the window and remain silent about it?

Was it because he felt guilty that he had been careless about security?
Was it because he is stupid?
Was it because there was no open window?
Other?

This does not make sense to me at all. What if the strange vehicle HAD belonged to the perp and John Ramsey let them get away by remaining silent?

Click to expand...

Jayelles,

I think Other.

He was probably thinking ahead, and the possibility he may need to answer questions regarding forensic evidence discovered in the basement, so he dreams up the window closing.

This and the strange vehicle, I consider to be the next phase, e.g. post-staging, of the Ramsey promotion of the intruder theory, it was later to become a cornerstone in their public defense.

There was no masterplan, I suspect JonBenet lay dead, secreted away in another part of the house, her corpse was probably dressed and designed to reflect a previous staging plan.

Now either one or two people were directly complicit in her death, and they expected someone to be arrested. When the RN gambit paid off, and handsomely, nobody was arrested or taken directly into custody, this encouraged further staging.

This lack of a masterplan, or one that included a follow through, most likely allowed JR to dump what I think was PR's prior staging, in preference to what became the Wine-Cellar staging.

JR's follow through was then a form of self-rationalisation and justification that takes the form of the questions you posed. He was to repeat this line continually in public and private, so imo a lot of the things JR does not mention till later, are afterthoughts that for him, help paint the picture he wants to promote.

.

ellen13 said:

Thanks for the info about that door!! Well, isn't it true that JR yelled out before he even turned the light on?? Or was that what ST said and is it a fact?

Click to expand...

ellen13,

The wine cellar was next to the boiler room. When Fleet White opened the white door and looked into the wine cellar it was about 6:20 AM and still dark outside. No natural light came into the wine cellar through the nearby boiler room window. The sun didn't rise that morning until 7:20 AM in Boulder.

When John Ramsey opened the white door and looked into the wine cellar it was 1:05 PM and bright daylight outside. Natural light came into the wine cellar through the nearby boiler room window.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab said:

However, to this day Fleet insists that, despite the darkened room, he would have seen JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket just several feet into the room HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

If Fleet's assertion is correct, then IMO, there are only two possibilities. Fleet is the perp or JR is the perp and he moved the body into that room later in the morning. Putting Fleet aside for a second, where could/would JR have moved the body from? I've heard mention of a crawl space, but if that were the case, her body would have been covered in dirt.

In my mind, the most logical explanation is that Fleet's assertion is incorrect. It was dark when he looked in there as the sun had yet to come up, and the room was windowless. Maybe it just seemed so bizarre to him that the room he had already searched turned out to be the room JB's body was found in. Combine that with the rest of the Ramsey's suspicious behavior, and I'd be asking questions, too, if I were FW.

Jayelles said:

What I find very odd though is that John Ramsey *allegedly* saw the basement window open and closed it - and didn't mention this till much later.

Click to expand...

To me, this is one of the most significant things in the case. It just makes no sense that JR would not mention this to police, innocent or guilty. This would either further the investigation or the diversion, depending on how you look at it.

But, there is a problem with finding JR's motives for not telling police as devious. If this would help divert attention away from himself, why would he not mention this to police? Or better yet, why would he not mention it, then mention that he didn't mention it earlier? It starts to send your mind in circles. Maybe he never saw the window open, but he made that up after-the-fact when he realized that was the only way an intruder could have gotten in the house.

I believe JR tries to explain this oddity by suggesting that he didn't think anything of an open window, because he knew that the window was often open, and the glass was broken by him the previous summer. But this, too, makes no sense, because even if he broke the glass AND left the window open, you would think he'd want to tell police as they are trying to figure out how someone got in your house to kidnap your daughter!! This is like the police showing up, and JR realizes that the front door is unlocked, but he decides not to tell police because he figures that he left it unlocked the night before!!!! Huh?

Voice of Reason said:

To me, this is one of the most significant things in the case. It just makes no sense that JR would not mention this to police, innocent or guilty.

Click to expand...

Voice of Reason,

John Ramsey didn't mention anything about an open basement window to the police on 12/26/96 because there was no open window. He made it up later during the 1997 police interviews.

Officer French was in the basement train room at 6:00 AM looking for an open window. He found none.

John Ramsey is lying or Rick French is lying. It's a slam dunk. John is lying through his teeth again.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab said:

Voice of Reason,

John Ramsey didn't mention anything about an open basement window to the police on 12/26/96 because there was no open window. He made it up later during the 1997 police interviews.

Officer French was in the basement train room at 6:00 AM looking for an open window. He found none.

John Ramsey is lying or Rick French is lying. It's a slam dunk. John is lying through his teeth again.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

BlueCrab,

That sounds pretty clear, so Rick French saw no open window and Fleet White saw no dead body!

But John Ramsey cites numerous strange events occurring, how convenient!


.

I thought some more about this last night. We were burgled circa 1990. It was November 30th - St Andrew's Day and we had spent the day helping friends to move house. Our son was at a birthday party and our older daughter was being watched by friends. Hubby and I agreed that I would go straight home and start dinner and he would round up the kids and bring them home with him.

When I got in the house, I was struck by the fact that our old dog was very subdued. I walked through the house to the back door and opened it for her to go out, but she merely stuck her head out of the door, sniffed and then backed into the house again - her tail was between her legs. She was old so I thought she was just being huffy because we'd been out all afternoon and I started preparing the dinner.

Some time later, Hubby arrived home with the kids and I heard them come in and then silence. After a bit Hubby called to me "Hey, what have you done with the tv and video?" I remember having a mental vision of the clocks on the tv and video flashing - like they do when there's a power cut. So I replied quite cheerfully "why? What's wrong with the tv and video?" and Hubby replied "They're GONE!".

I hadn't been in the lounge since I'd returned hom - I'd only been in the kitchen preparing dinner. That was the point at which we realised we'd been burgled so we flew around the rest of the house - the tv and video in the bedroom was also gone. Drawers were open with stuff trailed out. My jewellery box was lying upturned on our bed - it was horrible.

That was my thought - someone had been in our home. I pictured a shadowy character creeping around the house - did he kick the old dog? Uppermost in my mind was "How did he get in?" We are fastidious about locking doors.

I was completely obsessed with the thought that someone had been in our home - a stranger. I felt that we'd been violated. We discovered that the sliding patio doors in the dining room had been levered open - probably with a spade from the shed - because there was a telltale line of dirt along the bottom.

We discovered later that evening that we were one of several houses in the street which had been burgled that day.

For ages afterwards, I was haunted by thoughts of the burglar sitting on my bed as he rifled through my drawers.

I cannot understand John Ramsey seeing the open window and the strange vehicle and keeping this information to himself.

BlueCrab said:

Voice of Reason,

John Ramsey didn't mention anything about an open basement window to the police on 12/26/96 because there was no open window. He made it up later during the 1997 police interviews.

Officer French was in the basement train room at 6:00 AM looking for an open window. He found none.

John Ramsey is lying or Rick French is lying. It's a slam dunk. John is lying through his teeth again.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

I don't think Rick French's deposition has been made public. We don't know if he even have mentioned the window.

Unless his deposition states something to the effect that "I checked the window and it was not open" you cannot insinuate that JR was lying on the basis that someone else stated the exact opposite to what he said.

aussiesheila said:

I don't think Rick French's deposition has been made public. We don't know if he even have mentioned the window.

Unless his deposition states something to the effect that "I checked the window and it was not open" you cannot insinuate that JR was lying on the basis that someone else stated the exact opposite to what he said.

Click to expand...

aussiesheila,

Officer Rick French was in the basement at 6:00 AM looking for a possible place of entry by an intruder. There are only three windows in the basement. What else would he look at if it wasn't the windows?

BlueCrab

BlueCrab said:

ellen13,

The wine cellar was no secret to anyone. It's a rumor that grew legs and became a "fact" that the room was hidden. The door to the room is in plain sight.

When a person walks down the stairs to the basement and reaches the basement floor the door to the wine cellar is directly down the hall facing him. It was painted white and couldn't be missed.

When Officer French searched the basement at about 6:00 AM and unlatched the wooden stick used as a lock on the door and tugged on it the door wouldn't open because it was jammed tight on the carpet at the bottom. Since the door was locked from the outside French knew no intruder was in the room nor could an intruder have have escaped from the windowless room, so he didn't force the door open.

A few minutes later, at about 6:20 AM, when Fleet White searched the basement he forced the door open, leaned in and looked, but didn't see anything unusual in the darkened room. However, to this day Fleet insists that, despite the darkened room, he would have seen JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket just several feet into the room HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

Bluecrab,

FW could say that he would have seen her HAD SHE BEEN THERE a thousand times a day for the rest of his life but that would not make it a fact if it was not true in the first place.

Jayelles said:

What I find very odd though is that John Ramsey *allegedly* saw the basement window open and closed it - and didn't mention this till much later. He also *allegedly* saw a strange vehicle from the window and didn't think to mention this either.

I think that if one of my children disappeared from the house and I found a possible entry point - I would have raised the alarm immediately:-

• an entry point might yield forensics
• the kidnapper might have his forensics on file
• an identifiable perp is easier to catch
• I might get my child back quickly and unharmed

So why did John Ramsey not mention this till later? Why did he *allegedly* close the window and remain silent about it?

Was it because he felt guilty that he had been careless about security?
Was it because he is stupid?
Was it because there was no open window?
Other?

This does not make sense to me at all. What if the strange vehicle HAD belonged to the perp and John Ramsey let them get away by remaining silent?

Click to expand...

Jayelles, I also think 'Other'

Would you have expected him to rush upstairs and say "Oh I just found the window I had left open, the kidnapper must have got in that way" and expect that would make any difference?

John knew, or thought he knew that someone had broken in and taken his daughter and was holding her for ransom. IMO all John would have been thinking about that morning was the expected call from the kidnapper and he would have had all his hopes pinned on that as a way of getting back his daughter. I don't think he would have thought telling Linda Arndt how he thought the kidnapper had got into the house would make any difference to getting his daughter back.

BlueCrab said:

aussiesheila,

Officer Rick French was in the basement at 6:00 AM looking for a possible place of entry by an intruder. There are only three windows in the basement. What else would he look at if it wasn't the windows?

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

Why do you say he was looking for a possible place of entry? You don't know that for sure. I read somewhere he was looking for anything unusual. We are both just guessing. Neither of us has read his deposition so we don't really know. But we do know that French was not a trained forensic detective, probably felt uneasy all alone in the basement and probably just wanted to get out of there as quickly as he could.

You want it to be a fact that Rick French saw a closed window. But you do not have sufficient information to claim it as a fact. At the very least you need to read Rick French's deposition, not other people's interpretations of what he said.

aussiesheila said:

Why do you say he was looking for a possible place of entry? You don't know that for sure. I read somewhere he was looking for anything unusual. We are both just guessing. Neither of us has read his deposition so we don't really know. But we do know that French was not a trained forensic detective, probably felt uneasy all alone in the basement and probably just wanted to get out of there as quickly as he could.

You want it to be a fact that Rick French saw a closed window. But you do not have sufficient information to claim it as a fact. At the very least you need to read Rick French's deposition, not other people's interpretations of what he said.

Click to expand...

aussiesheila,

What deposition are you talking about? I don't know of any court case requiring a deposition from Rick French.

Fleet White also searched the basement shortly after French searched at 6:00 AM. Fleet didn't report an open window either. John Ramsey was lying when he said he was in the basement solo that morning after the cops got there and he found the window open and closed it.

John was in the basement that morning all right, but it wasn't at 10 or 11 o'clock; it was about three hours before the 911 call was made at 5:52 AM. His comment in the police interviews about moving a chair out of the way to get into the train room trapped him. French and White had already been in the train room and there was no chair blocking them. That means John was in the basement before French and White. And if John was in the train room at about 3:00 AM (give or take an hour) then he found JonBenet at that time.

John was lying between his teeth and got caught. Nothing the Ramseys say about what happened that morning has credibility.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab said:

aussiesheila,

What deposition are you talking about? I don't know of any court case requiring a deposition from Rick French.

Fleet White also searched the basement shortly after French searched at 6:00 AM. Fleet didn't report an open window either. John Ramsey was lying when he said he was in the basement solo that morning after the cops got there and he found the window open and closed it.

John was in the basement that morning all right, but it wasn't at 10 or 11 o'clock; it was about three hours before the 911 call was made at 5:52 AM. His comment in the police interviews about moving a chair out of the way to get into the train room trapped him. French and White had already been in the train room and there was no chair blocking them. That means John was in the basement before French and White. And if John was in the train room at about 3:00 AM (give or take an hour) then he found JonBenet at that time.

John was lying between his teeth and got caught. Nothing the Ramseys say about what happened that morning has credibility.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

The reason that police officers search premesis, or crime-scene, is NOT to look for forensic evidence or suspects, if they find one that helps. The purpose of the search is make certain that the house is lockfast, those remaining are safe, and are in no danger from lurking predators.

I suspect JR's reference to the open window is the start of his IDI scenario. Why else mention it, why is it important if he simply shut the window, he is drawing your attention to the possibility that someone has been lurking in the basement and has possibly escaped via the window. I'll bet a cent to a dollar he suggested this to Lou Smit, after a prayer session.

I'll bet it crossed JR's mind that JonBenet being discovered in the wine-cellar raised the question , ok, JonBenet is down there, but where did her killer go? e.g. did he leave, is he still resident?

Well lets have an open window ....

BlueCrab said:

aussiesheila,

What deposition are you talking about? I don't know of any court case requiring a deposition from Rick French.

Fleet White also searched the basement shortly after French searched at 6:00 AM. Fleet didn't report an open window either. John Ramsey was lying when he said he was in the basement solo that morning after the cops got there and he found the window open and closed it.

John was in the basement that morning all right, but it wasn't at 10 or 11 o'clock; it was about three hours before the 911 call was made at 5:52 AM. His comment in the police interviews about moving a chair out of the way to get into the train room trapped him. French and White had already been in the train room and there was no chair blocking them. That means John was in the basement before French and White. And if John was in the train room at about 3:00 AM (give or take an hour) then he found JonBenet at that time.

John was lying between his teeth and got caught. Nothing the Ramseys say about what happened that morning has credibility.

BlueCrab

Click to expand...

Alright BlueCrab, deposition was the wrong word, maybe I should have said 'statement'. Whatever. What I meant is that Rick French must have made some kind of official report back to BPD about what he saw that morning. I do not believe that has ever been made public and I do not think you can draw conclusions based on what someone else said that Rick French said.

And that goes for what FW said too. We have never seen any records of any of his interviews either.

With respect to the 'chair blocking the door' they are your words, not John's he just said something like 'the chair was in the doorway'. 'IN' the doorway is not the same as 'BLOCKING' the doorway. It is quite easy for the average person to get through a doorway with a chair IN it. The chair does not BLOCK the doorway at all. So it is quite possible that both FW and Rick French went through the doorway with the chair IN it and it that was only later when John went to go to the door and saw the chair IN it that he decided to move it, not because it was BLOCKING the door but because it was not where it should have been........

Which leads me to another point that I think I'll throw in here, maybe the pedophiles that I think were there that night, put that chair there to use it in their session of abuse. Maybe they stood JonBenet on it with her arms tied above her head with the cord they attached to a hook hanging from the door frame.