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  1. #1
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    The danger of a closed mind

    A few decades ago, the North of England was terrorised by a serial murderer who became known as the Yorkshire Ripper. His victim count ran to double figures and initially, he targetted prostitutes and "good time girls". Then he murdered a woman who was neither and there was a massive outcry.

    Apart from the politics surrounding the case, the investigation was seriously flawed. They didn't have DNA and computer technology was in its infancy and a huge backlog of paper increased daily. Now we know that all of the evidence required to arrest the perp was on paper and if it could have been entered onto computer, it would have been quickly cross-referenced and he would have been caught.

    However, the biggest hindrance to the investigation was a series of letters and even a cassette recording - allegedly from the killer. Some of the top brass in the police force believed these to be genuine and the investigation focused upon them. The clue was in the accent of the killer. The voice on the cassette had a "geordie" accent - a strong, distinctive accent from a place called Newcastle. As a result of investigators' belief in the genuine-ness of the tape, anyone who didn't have a Geordie accent was "given a pass".

    Numerous more women were murdered before a man was apprehended with a prostitute and taken into custody where he confessed to being the Yorkshire Ripper. This man was already on record as a suspect for many reasons which I won't go into - but he did not have a Geordie accent! The tape and letters were a hoax and the top brass of the police were humiliated by their refusal to keep an open mind.

    History has recored that the hoaxer was just as guilty of the murder of the later victims as the Ripper but it wasn't until recent months that he was caught. A few days ago, he was charged with perverting the course of justice.

    This should be a serious lesson but sadly, there are people who will cling to evidence which may not be related to a crime and in doing so, they will give good suspects "a pass". I am referring specifically to the DNA in the ramsey case. Experts tell us it may not belong to the killer - yet there are some who refuse to consider any suspcet whose DNA cannot be a match. I believe they do so because it would be the strongest exculpatory evidence for the ramseys and they NEED that, yet only last week, a new member here started a thread about a man who sounds like an ideal suspect for the ramsey murder - but whose DNA almost certainly is not a match (as it is already in CODIS).

    Justice will never be found for JonBenet by people who have closed minds.
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    I am referring specifically to the DNA in the ramsey case. Experts tell us it may not belong to the killer - yet there are some who refuse to consider any suspcet whose DNA cannot be a match.

    Jayelles,

    I agree there are barely enough markers (10) in the Ramsey case to enter it into the FBI's CODIS bank of DNA listings, and since it was mixed DNA there could be some bogus markers, but it's all we have. The Ramsey crime scene DNA has to be given some weight because it COULD be from the killer.

    The mixed DNA from JonBenet's panties, although it will never likely be able to be used to convict a suspect, CAN be used to tentatively exclude suspects. For instance, if a suspect doesn't have even one marker that matches the crime scene DNA, then it's extremely unlikely he is the killer. If one or two markers match then he should become a person of interest. Some LE agencies go to trial with only three matching markers, and get a conviction.

    True, 13 matching markers put the odds into the billions to one that the crime scene sample was likely donated by the suspect, but a sample that puts the odds at several thousand to one isn't too shabby and cannot be ignored.

    It's not a perfect world. It has to be assumed the mixed foreign DNA in the panties is from the killer, and just wait to see if CODIS gets a hit, despite the result being tentative. It's all we have.

    BlueCrab

  3. #3
    Jayelles, great post.

    I believe that a forum such as this is useful because we are not closing our minds. We acquire the facts (as best we can), we come up with ideas or theories, and then, instead of keeping these theories to ourselves, we post them. This gives others the chance to challenge theories, to point out inconsistencies.

    I don't have a theory. There are definitely problems with this case that I simply cannot overlook. Maybe it makes me closed-minded, but I always seem to come back to the same problems.

    I don't believe in the authenticity of the RN, I think it was staged. It's too long and melodramatic.

    I don't believe a FF was involved. Too farfetched, no group has claimed responsibilty, no group came for the ransom money.

    I don't believe a kidnapping was ever attempted. A real kidnapper would have taken JBR away, not kill her, and certainly not sexually assault her.

    Not an intruder/molester. An intruder bent on sexual assaulting JBR, imo, would assault the child and leave. NOT compose a lengthy RN.

    If given logical reason to stray from these point I generally hold onto, I would do so. That is the beauty of WS, we can throw out ideas and theories, test their worthiness, and keep or discard them as we see how they fit the known facts.

    imo

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandraladeda
    Jayelles, great post.

    I believe that a forum such as this is useful because we are not closing our minds. We acquire the facts (as best we can), we come up with ideas or theories, and then, instead of keeping these theories to ourselves, we post them. This gives others the chance to challenge theories, to point out inconsistencies.

    I don't have a theory. There are definitely problems with this case that I simply cannot overlook. Maybe it makes me closed-minded, but I always seem to come back to the same problems.

    I don't believe in the authenticity of the RN, I think it was staged. It's too long and melodramatic.

    I don't believe a FF was involved. Too farfetched, no group has claimed responsibilty, no group came for the ransom money.

    I don't believe a kidnapping was ever attempted. A real kidnapper would have taken JBR away, not kill her, and certainly not sexually assault her.

    Not an intruder/molester. An intruder bent on sexual assaulting JBR, imo, would assault the child and leave. NOT compose a lengthy RN.

    If given logical reason to stray from these point I generally hold onto, I would do so. That is the beauty of WS, we can throw out ideas and theories, test their worthiness, and keep or discard them as we see how they fit the known facts.

    imo
    The RN is authentic in that it was written by the killer, using his own handwriting and his own expressions.

    Just because no group claimed responsibility or came for the ransom money doesn't automatically mean that no FF was involved. The FF couldn't 'come for the ransom money' anyway, even if they wanted it, because PR called 911. IOW, an assertion that an FF was a position to 'come for the ransom money' is false because they were never in that position.

    Obviously a person who sexually assaults a child has a motive for murder. 'Assaulting the child and leaving' would allow the child to remain as a witness to what really happened. The second ligature is evidence that this 'assault' was more elaborate than usual.

    Its very likely an angry sociopathic FF intruder/molester that didn't want to be identified. He assaulted, killed, and composed a lengthy RN in his own handwriting as a smoke screen and delay tactic.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    The RN is authentic in that it was written by the killer, using his own handwriting and his own expressions.

    Just because no group claimed responsibility or came for the ransom money doesn't automatically mean that no FF was involved. The FF couldn't 'come for the ransom money' anyway, even if they wanted it, because PR called 911. IOW, an assertion that an FF was a position to 'come for the ransom money' is false because they were never in that position.

    Obviously a person who sexually assaults a child has a motive for murder. 'Assaulting the child and leaving' would allow the child to remain as a witness to what really happened. The second ligature is evidence that this 'assault' was more elaborate than usual.

    Its very likely an angry sociopathic FF intruder/molester that didn't want to be identified. He assaulted, killed, and composed a lengthy RN in his own handwriting as a smoke screen and delay tactic.
    hotyhat, you and I may not agree on a lot. We view different aspects of the case as being untenable. For example, you don't seem too convinced of any Ramsey guilt or involvement in a cover up. This is good for the Rs, they need someone to advocate for their side. I believe our discussions could become much as Jayelles has suggested, closed-minded if we treat the R's involvement as a foregone conclusion.

    I agree, the RN was obviously written by the killer (or someone who knew who the killer was) using their own (or slightly disguised?) handwriting, and his/her own expressions. But I do not believe it was authentically intended to yield a ransom.

    I agree, sexually assaulting is a motive to murder and I should have stated that possibility.

    But for me, it could have been a molester/murderer, if it was not for the fact that there was a RN.

    It could have been a kidnap gone wrong, if not for the sexual assault (I think a molesting kidnapper would do so when at a safe distant with the kidnapped child, not molest right there in the home)

    I don't think a FF would call itself a FF in a RN. I don't think a FF would target JR and his family. imo, JR was not rich or important enough, imo.

    Just because the note says it's a foreign faction does not make it so. The writer of the note could have said "We are Israeili terrorists" or "We are protesting Charles Manson's imprisonment", and this would not make it so!

    Based on what I know now, and being open to the possibilty of new facts coming in, I find I cannot move away from these opinions. So far. But I enjoy discussing what everyone believes, and why. And I pray that one day we will all know the truth about what really happened to JBR.

    imho

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandraladeda
    hotyhat, you and I may not agree on a lot. We view different aspects of the case as being untenable. For example, you don't seem too convinced of any Ramsey guilt or involvement in a cover up. This is good for the Rs, they need someone to advocate for their side. I believe our discussions could become much as Jayelles has suggested, closed-minded if we treat the R's involvement as a foregone conclusion.

    I agree, the RN was obviously written by the killer (or someone who knew who the killer was) using their own (or slightly disguised?) handwriting, and his/her own expressions. But I do not believe it was authentically intended to yield a ransom.

    I agree, sexually assaulting is a motive to murder and I should have stated that possibility.

    But for me, it could have been a molester/murderer, if it was not for the fact that there was a RN.

    It could have been a kidnap gone wrong, if not for the sexual assault (I think a molesting kidnapper would do so when at a safe distant with the kidnapped child, not molest right there in the home)

    I don't think a FF would call itself a FF in a RN. I don't think a FF would target JR and his family. imo, JR was not rich or important enough, imo.

    Just because the note says it's a foreign faction does not make it so. The writer of the note could have said "We are Israeili terrorists" or "We are protesting Charles Manson's imprisonment", and this would not make it so!

    Based on what I know now, and being open to the possibilty of new facts coming in, I find I cannot move away from these opinions. So far. But I enjoy discussing what everyone believes, and why. And I pray that one day we will all know the truth about what really happened to JBR.

    imho
    Excellent post, sandraladeda!
    A 'foreign faction' would not have called themselves like that in a letter, ITA. That was one of the blunders the letter writer made.
    Indeed, just because the note says 'we are a foreign faction' doesn't mean that there is any substance to that claim.
    And imo people who buy into the foreign faction scenario have swallowed the bait the perp has laid out.
    Have the Ramseys ever commented on the 'foreign faction'? Even they seem to think that the ransom note was bogus. For why would JR say that all this was "an inside job"? Pretty revealing statement imo.

    Even laypeople can see from the handwriting that the letter writer was in a total emotional turmoil and panic when writing the ransom note.
    Panic points miles away from any kidnappers, but does point to a parent involved in the death of his own child.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    Excellent post, sandraladeda!
    A 'foreign faction' would not have called themselves like that in a letter, ITA. That was one of the blunders the letter writer made.
    Indeed, just because the note says 'we are a foreign faction' doesn't mean that there is any substance to that claim.
    And imo people who buy into the foreign faction scenario have swallowed the bait the perp has laid out.
    Have the Ramseys ever commented on the 'foreign faction'? Even they seem to think that the ransom note was bogus. For why would JR say that all this was "an inside job"? Pretty revealing statement imo.

    Even laypeople can see from the handwriting that the letter writer was in a total emotional turmoil and panic when writing the ransom note.
    Panic points miles away from any kidnappers, but does point to a parent involved in the death of his own child.
    Likewise, the author wasn't worried about leaving a ton of handwriting evidence, because they're from a FF. Its the only reasonable explanation for leaving handwriting. If an R wrote a ransom note, their handwriting would've been matched in about 10 seconds.

  8. #8
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    I don't understand why they have offered us a race id for the dna found on Susannah and not on Jonbenet, nevertheless, we have been told the "evidence" is from a caucasian male. I hope this isn't based on one ancillary hair.
    What would be the guess for the background of the FF?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    If an R wrote a ransom note, their handwriting would've been matched in about 10 seconds.
    I really don't agree with this. Handwriting analysis is not an exact science, and if an effort was made to conceal the writing, I think that would throw it off. And even though I lean toward IDI, I personally don't think a 4.5 out of 5 is definitive. IMO, they were unable to rule Patsy out. So there is a chance that she wrote it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishMist
    I really don't agree with this. Handwriting analysis is not an exact science, and if an effort was made to conceal the writing, I think that would throw it off. And even though I lean toward IDI, I personally don't think a 4.5 out of 5 is definitive. IMO, they were unable to rule Patsy out. So there is a chance that she wrote it.
    Well, you have to ask yourself why would someone write a 3 page instead of a 1 page handwritten note when they live in the same house. Consider that everybody knows handwriting is used to establish one's identity. There's enough comparison samples in the ransom note for an expert to conclusively identify an R, but they can't. The reason certainly isn't because an R effectively disguised their handwriting. The reason is obviously because the handwriting belongs to someone else.

    Someone not worried about leaving handwriting evidence because they're 1000's of miles away.


  11. #11
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    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    Well, you have to ask yourself why would someone write a 3 page instead of a 1 page handwritten note when they live in the same house. Consider that everybody knows handwriting is used to establish one's identity. There's enough comparison samples in the ransom note for an expert to conclusively identify an R, but they can't. The reason certainly isn't because an R effectively disguised their handwriting. The reason is obviously because the handwriting belongs to someone else.

    Someone not worried about leaving handwriting evidence because they're 1000's of miles away.
    Well, I guess I would figure that they were not exactly criminally savvy. And that's usually the problem with staging. Folks who don't know what real criminals do will tend to screw up.

    I can see your point, too. The note just gets my hinky meter going, and I'm forever seeing both sides to it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishMist
    Well, I guess I would figure that they were not exactly criminally savvy. And that's usually the problem with staging. Folks who don't know what real criminals do will tend to screw up.

    I can see your point, too. The note just gets my hinky meter going, and I'm forever seeing both sides to it.
    I'm not a believer in FF just because the RN says so. There's some evidence that supports the perp's claim to be FF, and casually leaving 3 pages of handwriting is one of them. FF perp's not as concerned about that.

    The RN says its a kidnapping, but I'm not at all sure of that. It probably was an attempt at the ransom money, though. Similar to L & L.

    'Usually the problem with staging' implies there has been staging elsewhere. Does anyone know of a similar crime with crime scene staging? How about a f'rinstance? Is there proof JBR's crime scene was staged?

  13. #13
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    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    'Usually the problem with staging' implies there has been staging elsewhere. Does anyone know of a similar crime with crime scene staging? How about a f'rinstance? Is there proof JBR's crime scene was staged?
    I'm not sure about proof, but some of the things that could point to staging to me are:

    The lack of lip prints on the tape, meaning that she was dead after it was applied.

    The note just seems so, I don't know what word I'm looking for here, but I'll go with "fake." (And please don't respond that it was real, written on real paper with a real pen... I'm not stupid. ) But I'm thinking that even the FBI felt it was fake.

    Her cords on her wrists were "loosely tied", which makes me think they were applied after death.

    The fact that it wasn't a kidnapping at all...

    That's all that I can think of off the top of my head. In my mind, all of these things can go both ways- IDI or RDI. Which is why I can never make up my mind in this case. I think it was probably IDI, but I just don't KNOW.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    I'm not a believer in FF just because the RN says so. There's some evidence that supports the perp's claim to be FF, and casually leaving 3 pages of handwriting is one of them. FF perp's not as concerned about that.

    The RN says its a kidnapping, but I'm not at all sure of that. It probably was an attempt at the ransom money, though. Similar to L & L.

    'Usually the problem with staging' implies there has been staging elsewhere. Does anyone know of a similar crime with crime scene staging? How about a f'rinstance? Is there proof JBR's crime scene was staged?
    Holdontoyourhat,

    It is where she was discovered that has been staged, the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene!

    The Ransom Note as likely as not was part of another scenario, but as you mention, how can this be a bona-fide kidnapping with her corpse lying in the basement, it is pretty unlikely.

    But then take another look at her body in the basement, look at the autopsy photographs, view the ligature, and you will see that her hair is embedded in the knotting, and her necklace is entangled in the same ligature, but there is no abrasions resulting from this.

    This tells you that the broken Paintbrush Handle was applied after her death!

    Why would any FF wish to do that, or even any sociopathic pedophile?

    I dont know, but I can suggest someone staging a crime-scene to make cord into a garrote might wish to do this for effect?

    .

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    Holdontoyourhat,

    It is where she was discovered that has been staged, the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene!

    The Ransom Note as likely as not was part of another scenario, but as you mention, how can this be a bona-fide kidnapping with her corpse lying in the basement, it is pretty unlikely.

    But then take another look at her body in the basement, look at the autopsy photographs, view the ligature, and you will see that her hair is embedded in the knotting, and her necklace is entangled in the same ligature, but there is no abrasions resulting from this.

    This tells you that the broken Paintbrush Handle was applied after her death!

    Why would any FF wish to do that, or even any sociopathic pedophile?

    I dont know, but I can suggest someone staging a crime-scene to make cord into a garrote might wish to do this for effect?

    .
    "The wine cellar is a staged crime scene." Who says? What about it is staged? Again, I'll ask if anyone can come up with an example, any example, of a staged crime scene that involved murder or the coverup of a murder.

    The evidence itself contradicts any idea that the garrote was used as a prop. JBR had local hemmorhaging on her neck around the cord, which conclusively proves she was brutally murdered and the garrote was one of the murder weapons.

    The idea that the cord and paintbrush were props isn't reasonable, because it contradicts even the published evidence.

    There was no staging, the basement was merely a remote place to leave JBR, the ransom note left in a conspicuous place to delay the discovery of JBR.

    This isn't that complicated.

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