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  1. #1
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    Molested with the handle?

    Has it been determined that the paint brush handle was inserted into the vagina, or is that just an assumption? How far up was the birefringent material found? Was vaginal fluid detected on the handle? The birefringent material could have been transfered by a finger.

  2. #2
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    The part of the paint brush handle supposedly used to abuse JonBenet was never found. So I guess it would be an assumption. You have a good point,that it could have been transfered to a finger. But using Occam's Razor,I can see how that assumption was made,because of what they found in JonBenet's vagina,and how that part of the paint brush is conveniently missing.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by capps
    The part of the paint brush handle supposedly used to abuse JonBenet was never found. So I guess it would be an assumption. You have a good point,that it could have been transfered to a finger. But using Occam's Razor,I can see how that assumption was made,because of what they found in JonBenet's vagina,and how that part of the paint brush is conveniently missing.
    How do you know the shard came from the missing piece? As I understand it the brush part was in the tray, the middle part was used as the handle, and the end is missing. Is that correct? How was it determined that the shard was from the missing end?

    No one can draw a conclusion about the identity or motive of the perp by imagining the handle being used to violate the body, as it is n not clear that that is what in fact happened.

  4. #4
    sharpar's Avatar
    sharpar is offline If dogs dont go to heaven I want to go where they are
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    I also think very small pieces were found during autopsy of JB. It was my impression it is a VERY GOOD guess that the missing piece was used to
    violate JB.

  5. #5
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    How/why was paintbrush broken?

    What's the speculation on whether the brush was tied to the cord and when pulling the brush to tighten the ligature the brush-end and rounded-end snapped, leaving the middle section of the brush on the cord as opposed to breaking the paintbrush then tying the middle section to the cord.

    We know the brush end was later found in Patsy's painting tote and that the rounded end is missing.

    TIA for any input on analyzing this piece of evidence and the part it played.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Has it been determined that the paint brush handle was inserted into the vagina, or is that just an assumption? How far up was the birefringent material found? Was vaginal fluid detected on the handle? The birefringent material could have been transfered by a finger.
    Excellent questions Paradox....I was wondering the same things.
    "This time we get it right."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Has it been determined that the paint brush handle was inserted into the vagina, or is that just an assumption? How far up was the birefringent material found? Was vaginal fluid detected on the handle? The birefringent material could have been transfered by a finger.

    Paradox,
    Has it been determined that the paint brush handle was inserted into the vagina, or is that just an assumption?
    No and yes.

    But Coroner Meyer may have determined that the missing piece of the paint brush handle was inserted inside JonBenet, and redacted it from the autopsy report, which only refers to birefringement material, while Steve Thomas refers to it as a splinter and cellulose in his book.

    So its an open question, my money is on the missing piece being inserted into JonBenet.


    .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    What's the speculation on whether the brush was tied to the cord and when pulling the brush to tighten the ligature the brush-end and rounded-end snapped, leaving the middle section of the brush on the cord as opposed to breaking the paintbrush then tying the middle section to the cord.

    We know the brush end was later found in Patsy's painting tote and that the rounded end is missing.

    TIA for any input on analyzing this piece of evidence and the part it played.
    BOESP,
    What's the speculation on whether the brush was tied to the cord and when pulling the brush to tighten the ligature the brush-end and rounded-end snapped, leaving the middle section of the brush on the cord as opposed to breaking the paintbrush then tying the middle section to the cord.
    Highly improbable, shards from the broken painbrush were discovered just outside the wine-cellar door, suggesting it was snapped for use here.

    .

  9. #9
    IrishMist's Avatar
    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
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    And, we are assuming that the paintbrush was whole to begin with. My mother is a painter, and the tops (or "rounded-ends") of some of her brushes are broken.

    In my mind, there may not be a missing piece.

    I do wish we had a better description of this material. I've heard splinter, cellulose, powder off of latex gloves, and a fleck of paint off the paintbrush.

    If it was digital penetration, (didn't meyer say the injuries were consistent with that?) it could be just about anything stuck to the finger, couldn't it?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishMist View Post
    And, we are assuming that the paintbrush was whole to begin with. My mother is a painter, and the tops (or "rounded-ends") of some of her brushes are broken.

    In my mind, there may not be a missing piece.

    I do wish we had a better description of this material. I've heard splinter, cellulose, powder off of latex gloves, and a fleck of paint off the paintbrush.

    If it was digital penetration, (didn't meyer say the injuries were consistent with that?) it could be just about anything stuck to the finger, couldn't it?
    Yep, and especially if the person that was doing the insertion....was wearing a latex glove. A splinter could have very VERY easily been stuck either on the finger or the glove, or partially inside the finger of the glove...(I am talking about just the glove itself, and not going all the way to the perp's finger)...and the perp would have never have known it or felt it. It would have been extremely easy for a splinter to have imbedded itself part way, in one of the fingers of the glove.
    "This time we get it right."


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    BOESP,

    Highly improbable, shards from the broken painbrush were discovered just outside the wine-cellar door, suggesting it was snapped for use here.

    .
    It hasn't been proved where in the home the cord came from (if it did come from the home) as far as I know but we do know the paint tote was sitting outside the wine-cellar door so how would your scenario discount the ligature being made at the wine-cellar door?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishMist View Post
    And, we are assuming that the paintbrush was whole to begin with. My mother is a painter, and the tops (or "rounded-ends") of some of her brushes are broken.

    In my mind, there may not be a missing piece.

    I do wish we had a better description of this material. I've heard splinter, cellulose, powder off of latex gloves, and a fleck of paint off the paintbrush.

    If it was digital penetration, (didn't meyer say the injuries were consistent with that?) it could be just about anything stuck to the finger, couldn't it?
    Mist, I'm leaning toward your thoughts. The piece may have been missing long before the crime was committed. I'm playing the scene through my mind and trying to figure out at what point the brush was broken and why someone would do that (either purposefully or accidentally).

    I understood Meyer to mean JonBenet's injury was consistent with digital penetration. Steve Thomas said a splinter was found and the autopsy uses the terminology birefringent material. While UKGuy has stated he believes Meyer was being cryptic by saying "birefringent" to avoid saying splinter. I don't hold that opinion. Autopsies are not meant to be cryptic. They are designed to be scientifically specific. I'm sure UKGuy will correct me if I've misstated his position.

    I don't know of anything that proves a portion of the paintbrush handle was used vaginally on JonBenet but maybe someone can come up with something convincing that demonstrates that possibility. I think, based on my reading, that this is theory that has taken on it's own life and become a "fact." If I remember correctly, some foreign animal hair was also found on JonBenet, maybe a couple of hairs on the exterior of her clothes (can't remember for sure right now). There's speculation that hair came from the head of one of the brushes in Patsy's paint tote.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Mist, I'm leaning toward your thoughts. The piece may have been missing long before the crime was committed. I'm playing the scene through my mind and trying to figure out at what point the brush was broken and why someone would do that (either purposefully or accidentally).

    I understood Meyer to mean JonBenet's injury was consistent with digital penetration. Steve Thomas said a splinter was found and the autopsy uses the terminology birefringent material. While UKGuy has stated he believes Meyer was being cryptic by saying "birefringent" to avoid saying splinter. I don't hold that opinion. Autopsies are not meant to be cryptic. They are designed to be scientifically specific. I'm sure UKGuy will correct me if I've misstated his position.

    I don't know of anything that proves a portion of the paintbrush handle was used vaginally on JonBenet but maybe someone can come up with something convincing that demonstrates that possibility. I think, based on my reading, that this is theory that has taken on it's own life and become a "fact." If I remember correctly, some foreign animal hair was also found on JonBenet, maybe a couple of hairs on the exterior of her clothes (can't remember for sure right now). There's speculation that hair came from the head of one of the brushes in Patsy's paint tote.
    And I agree....but, according to Patsy... she had NO broken paintbrushes, and they all were brand new...(from her 98 Interview). See, I don't believe her...or nothing else she says, I find it hard to believe that every single paintbrush that she owned was brand new...or that there wasn't a broken one in the batch. It could have been broken from being stepped on accidently, one of the kids could have broken one or two of them....theres lots a ways that they could have gotten broken.
    "This time we get it right."

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    It hasn't been proved where in the home the cord came from (if it did come from the home) as far as I know but we do know the paint tote was sitting outside the wine-cellar door so how would your scenario discount the ligature being made at the wine-cellar door?
    BOESP,
    My scenario does not discount the ligature made at the wine-cellar door, nor does it mandate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP
    I understood Meyer to mean JonBenet's injury was consistent with digital penetration. Steve Thomas said a splinter was found and the autopsy uses the terminology birefringent material. While UKGuy has stated he believes Meyer was being cryptic by saying "birefringent" to avoid saying splinter. I don't hold that opinion. Autopsies are not meant to be cryptic. They are designed to be scientifically specific. I'm sure UKGuy will correct me if I've misstated his position.
    Coroner Meyer was being precisely scientifically specific in his Autopsy Report, birefringent material tells you it has the property of polarizing light, which allows identification of the material, particularly since there may be a sample already available e.g. the remaining piece of the paintbrush.

    Coroner Meyer simply never stated in his Autopsy Report from where the birefringent material originated, thereby avoiding either redacting the information, or classifying at as Steve Thomas did in his book.

    Particular items that had been redacted were later published in full after a court hearing.


    .

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    BOESP,
    My scenario does not discount the ligature made at the wine-cellar door, nor does it mandate it.

    .
    Okay. I misunderstood what I thought you were saying:

    "Highly improbable, shards from the broken painbrush were discovered just outside the wine-cellar door, suggesting it was snapped for use here."

    after I asked:

    "What's the speculation on whether the brush was tied to the cord and when pulling the brush to tighten the ligature the brush-end and rounded-end snapped, leaving the middle section of the brush on the cord as opposed to breaking the paintbrush then tying the middle section to the cord."

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