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Thread: PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4

  1. #151
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    Let's pray that this meeting will turn up something. This must seem completely endless to those that love and are missing Ray.

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyGirl
    Let's pray that this meeting will turn up something. This must seem completely endless to those that love and are missing Ray.
    Yes, Pray. Thanks Jersey!

  3. #153
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    Case review delayed until November 15.
    http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centr...s/15904503.htm

  4. #154
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    Centre Daily Times | 11/01/2006 | State police delay Gricar case review -- again

    The much-anticipated meeting of Pennsylvania State Police criminal investigators reviewing the investigation into the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar has been postponed until the week of Nov. 15.

    The meeting had been scheduled for Tuesday, Wednesday and today at an undisclosed location...

    They have scheduled, and then postponed, their meeting three times now.

    ************************************************** **********

    One of the articles posted a while back stated that it would take place November 15 so I'm not sure why this is written as if it's a new & sudden decision.

    ETA: Hmm, maybe it wasn't posted before - I can't seem to find any post about it now. But I could swear that a long time ago, someone in an article had mentioned November 15th as the date for this meeting.

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyGirl

    ************************************************** **********

    One of the articles posted a while back stated that it would take place November 15 so I'm not sure why this is written as if it's a new & sudden decision.

    ETA: Hmm, maybe it wasn't posted before - I can't seem to find any post about it now. But I could swear that a long time ago, someone in an article had mentioned November 15th as the date for this meeting.
    I am sure you are right, I had read more than once that the meetings would be held Nov 15-17. I can't find it either, but your not crazy, I read that too!

  6. #156
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    Thanks so much, christine! I was beginning to think that the kids had finally driven me over the edge!!!

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  7. #157
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    News briefing conclusion: "We are no closer to solving this case."
    "Local investigators have no new clues. . . ."
    They are considering re-interviewing "persons of interest."
    Recent tips have turned out to be "non-credible."
    "Federal and state investigators are involved w/ Bellefonte PD running point."

    Just a few quotes from the locat WTAJ channel 10 news story at 5:00.

  8. #158
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    *SIGH*

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #159
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    Disappointing isn't it. I was hoping something...anything...might have been overlooked. Maybe if persons involved are requestioned someone might remember something helpful.

  10. #160
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    Would be happy if "persons of interest" are reinterviewed.

    IMO, there was a serious conflict of interest & BPD should never have been the primary investigating authority.

    God Bless Ray Gricar & his family.

  11. #161
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    i think the lady from the courthouse who saw ray gricar leave in a car from the courthouse that friday afternoon should be hypnotized (sp) if she would allow it. to me she is the crucial witness who could turn this whole investigation in a new direction.

    i think this is a serious sighting since she remembers so clearly saying as she scooted out of work early the friday in question, "well there is ray leaving the parking lot, and if the DA can leave early than i can too"....or words to that affect. if she is correct, and i believe she is, this places ray back at home and not miles away in those hours immediately before patti reports him missing.

    i also think there should be some sort of independent review of his finances. i was shocked to learn that they had been letting his daughter handle them without even an audit etc. i don't care what personal feelings are, they should be looked at with new eyes, and not anyone associated with the prior investigations of this mystery.

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  13. #162
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    I have been interested in this case from the beginning but didn't follow it as closely as some of you have. I've taken the time to read many of the threads here. So I guess I am a "fresh eye" on things?

    Some thoughts and questions:

    1.) Bodies don't just "disappear". It was mid-April. Not a time of year when a river would freeze over or anything like that. I live near Pittsburgh. Lots of rivers. Bodies wash up. What are the "official" thoughts as to why no body has ever surfaced?

    2.) How far from the bridge was the laptop found? How far from the laptop was the hard drive found? How does one remove a hard drive from a laptop? Need a tool such as a screwdriver? Anything like that found?

    (Okay, I am going to kill myself. But first I am going to disassemble this computer somehow and throw the pieces into the river somewhere. Then I am going to jump off the bridge. ??)

    3.) Having daughter's name on bank accounts, suposedly for years, and paying cash for a car that you title into someone else's name is suspicious behavior IMO. And this was supposedly explained away by he was "afraid someone might sue him"? No way. (Somebody might sue me and take my car?) How many DAs live in fear of being sued to the point of this type of behavior? Not many, I would bet. Something else was going on here. (Car in the name of another = car insurance in the name of another. Poor driving record or a DUI on driving record causes people to put their car into someone else's name sometimes - not "fear of lawsuit".) Having a second person listed on a bank account allows the Social Security Number of either to be used by the bank for IRS reporting purposes. So if you have money in a bank and you DON'T want info on that account reported, and thus available for subponea from, say, a soon-to-be-ex wife, you add your child and report on their SSN.

    4.) Does anyone else here remember the original interviews on TV with the girlfriend and the daughter? Right then and there I thought something was very strange! The wording from BOTH of them was "We'll wait for you as long as it takes" (or words very, very close to that). Nothing about "Oh, we hope nothing bad has happened" or "We want him back and beg whoever has taken him to return him to us". I thought it was extremely strange wording under the circumstances. And still do.

    5.) Three different stories from girlfriend is suspicious. Bad reporting by media or something else?

    6.) Who stood to gain what from the disappearance of this man? The daughter got his money? Who got his life insurance, if any? What did the girlfriend get? What about the guy who got his job?

    Just some thoughts!

  14. #163
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    Here are some answers from the CentreDaily.com forum maintained by reporter Pete Bosak:

    "Experts tell me, including the Lewisburg police chief, that if Ray threw himself into the nearby Susquehanna River, his body would have turned up by now."

    "As for interviewing Ray's closest friends, co-workers or neighbors, police did not do so in depth. As I reported several weeks ago, Assistant District Attorney Steve Sloane said he never was interviewed by lead investigator and Bellefonte Police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, nor was his other dear friend, Ed Walker. As for their direct neighbors, I'll find out for sure. Courthouse employees also complained to me they never were interviewed by police, all the while relating stories to me about "strange" behavior by Ray in the week's leading up to his disappearance.
    Pete Bosak 6/06/06"

    "But you are right, Ray took Thursday, April 14, 2005 off during the afternoon. But security cameras found Ray entering the courthouse later that evening wearing his blue jacket, blue jeans and tennis shoes. Those are the same things he was reported to be wearing the Friday he disappeared too. As to why he took that Thursday afternoon off, that was never explained to me in detail. I'm not sure he even told Patty, other to say he was "playing hooky." I'll see what else I can find out.
    Pete Bosak 6/05/06"

    "The river was rather low at the time of year Gricar disappeared. Parts of it can reach as deep as 15 to 20, or so I'm told by Lewisburg police. But during the spring and, especially the summer, you can walk across it in some places. The river was searched literally for perhaps a 100 miles. Fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters from Pennsylvania State Police went up and down the river looking for a body. But Lewisburg Police Chief Yost has told me the river is heavily used for recreation and by fisherman. If a body was in that river, Yost said, it would have been found by now. As to Gricar's cell phone, it was in the car. And no unusual calls were found on the phone.
    Pete Bosak 5/22/06"

    "But the hard drive, found separately from the laptop itself, was too badly damanged to retrieve any data from it. Zaccagni also said the hard drive was taken from the computer by "a clean pull," meaning it was not broken or pried from the computer itself. It was intentionally taken out of the computer. Both hard drive and laptop were then found at different points of the Susquehanna River."

    "I'm not computer expert, but I'm told it's fairly easy to remove the hard drive from the machine. Investigators can't discount the theory that the hard drive popped out on its own before, during or after it was found in the Susquehanna River. They also can't discount that the hard drive was removed from the machine on purpose. Since experts can't access information on the hard drive found in the banks of the Susquehanna several months ago, the mystery of what was on the hard drive (and whether it was even the one that belonged to Gricar's county-issued laptop) remains."

    "After the car was found by a passing state trooper, police dogs were brought to the parking lot but lost the scent very close to the car. According to Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, one of the K-9 handlers said that could mean Gricar got into another car. "

    The above have answered almost all of my questions. Here is my theory:

    Ray took off for a new life.
    Ray met up with someone, probably a woman (2 prior marriages, current live-in relationship, several former girlfriends) got out of his car and got into another car. (Dogs lost scent close to car) Ray led his life in a manner which would allow him to "just disappear" some day if he felt like it. No real estate to tie him down, sufficient funds in a joint account to take care of his daughter - and set up in a manner that she would have no trouble getting the money.
    Above average salary for years not reflected in bank accounts - the man accumulated cash, as evidenced by purchasing a fairly expensive vehicle for cash. (Know how unusual this is? Very!) No house payment. Nothing in his name. Gave the girlfriend a monthly sum to help out?
    No body ever turns up in a river that is not all that deep (or wide).

    Ray knew the computer would "add to the mystery". He threw it out of the car window as he and the new girlfriend drove across the bridge on their way out of town. The divers missed it during their search.

    The daughter lives in California. She rarely ever calls the police to inquire about the case. She "gets her information from Patty", the girlfriend.

    Ray was already through two divorces. The second divorce "may have cost him a pretty penny" according to the friend and co-worker listed above who was never inteviewed by investigators.

    After being burned twice, he wanted his life to be organized in such a way that if he wanted out, he could get out at any time.

    An interesting case!

  15. #164
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    The Rivers Edge : Homicide? Suicide? Hoax? A Prosecutor Vanishes, And The Clues Point Everywhere And Nowhere At Once.the Riverís Edge

    http://www.freetimes.com/story/3739

  16. #165
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    Gricar case review dispirits family
    Nephew says detectives rehashed old files, failed to look for missed leads



    Centre Daily

    It was the first glimmer of hope the family and loved ones of Ray Gricar had had in a long time.

    The Pennsylvania State Police Criminal Investigation Assessment Unit was asked in June to review Bellefonte Police Department's investigation into the April 15, 2005, disappearance of the former Centre County district attorney. After five months of review and several delays, the unit finally met last month for three days to discuss the case with District Attorney Michael Madeira and Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver.

    When it was over, the family's hopes were dashed again.

    "To go that many months with it being put on hold, delay after delay, and not get anything out of it is frustrating," said family spokesman Tony Gricar, the missing prosecutor's nephew. "I'm definitely disappointed we didn't see anything come out of the CIA review."

    Tony Gricar, despite a conference call last week involving himself; the missing prosecutor's daughter, Lara; Gricar's former live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola; and Madeira, still is at a loss to understand what the CIA unit did.

    "We didn't get any specific details on it other than they assessed it," Tony Gricar said.

    The state police criminal investigation assessment team was expected to go over the case from top to the bottom and perhaps find missed leads or new avenues to pursue. According to Weaver and Madeira, the unit found no new evidence or missed leads.


    This is what really gets me.....

    The state police unit did not speak with Assistant District Attorney Carolyn Fenton, who said she saw Gricar in a parking lot behind the Centre County Courthouse at 3 p.m. April 15, 2005. She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car. She said she remembered because she felt better going home early knowing that the district attorney was doing the same. She was working as a law clerk for Judge David E. Grine at the time.

    Police discounted Fenton's sighting because it did not fit their timeline of Ray Gricar being in Lewisburg.

  17. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    The state police unit did not speak with Assistant District Attorney Carolyn Fenton, who said she saw Gricar in a parking lot behind the Centre County Courthouse at 3 p.m. April 15, 2005. She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car. She said she remembered because she felt better going home early knowing that the district attorney was doing the same. She was working as a law clerk for Judge David E. Grine at the time.

    Police discounted Fenton's sighting because it did not fit their timeline of Ray Gricar being in Lewisburg.
    This part irks me every time I read it. Someone needs to really look into this.

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  18. #167
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    i agree that ADA Fenton is KEY in establishing a new timeline for ray's disappearance! i do not discount her in any way, and i wish some new eyes on this case would pursue this sighting. frankly i put a lot more stock in her sighting of ray than i do the owner of the antiques store who says he saw ray standing around outside the next day! this woman worked with ray for crying out loud!!!

  19. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by izzyB
    i agree that ADA Fenton is KEY in establishing a new timeline for ray's disappearance! i do not discount her in any way, and i wish some new eyes on this case would pursue this sighting. frankly i put a lot more stock in her sighting of ray than i do the owner of the antiques store who says he saw ray standing around outside the next day! this woman worked with ray for crying out loud!!!
    She said he was in a different car, remember? That could be a huge clue.

  20. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    She said he was in a different car, remember? That could be a huge clue.

    oh absolutely!!! i find it incredible that LE has practically ignored this woman.

  21. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    She said he was in a different car, remember? That could be a huge clue.
    IMO, if he was in a different car, then it changes everything. To me, it would mean that he likely left on his own.

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  22. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyGirl
    IMO, if he was in a different car, then it changes everything. To me, it would mean that he likely left on his own.
    She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car.

    From one of my above posts, she has said this from the beginning, I need to go back and see if I can find what kinda car she said it was.

  23. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car.

    From one of my above posts, she has said this from the beginning, I need to go back and see if I can find what kinda car she said it was.
    Here it is:

    Fenton said she was about 15 to 20 feet away. Gricar was driving a gold or silver, metallic-colored car, not his Mini Cooper or Fornicola's Honda, she said.

    Found in post #92, Ray Gricar Discussion #3.

  24. #173
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    agree that him in a different car means he (probably with help) arranged his own disappearance. and considering that would mean he is likely alive today, i hope that is the case.

    i also think i would recognize a co-worker in a car, albeit a different car, if i saw them at a distance of 15 feet.

    for LE to ignore this MAJOR clue: could it mean that ray is in the witness-protection program as some here have speculated???

  25. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    Here it is:

    Fenton said she was about 15 to 20 feet away. Gricar was driving a gold or silver, metallic-colored car, not his Mini Cooper or Fornicola's Honda, she said.

    Found in post #92, Ray Gricar Discussion #3.
    Oh, I know that this has been discussed before. I was just agreeing that this is a HUGE detail to not look into. Being in a different car, to me, means that he chose to leave.

    ETA: Good point, izzyb, that if LE is not looking into this woman's account of things in spite of it being such a bombshell then maybe that tells us something. And then we're supposed to believe that the FBI, CIA, etc., "reviewed" this case and couldn't solve it yet STILL didn't interview this woman. Beyond odd.

    "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  26. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyGirl
    Oh, I know that this has been discussed before.
    LOL, I was more talking to myself, trying to recall if any specific info was actually given about the car. I was hoping for a make/model!

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