Looking over videos again, I noticed it looks like Darlie made only one trip towards the garage from the kitchen sink. And it looks like she stood by the washer for a while, pretty big blood drops there. Think she was watching Darin cut the screen?
Cutting the screen
- Thread starter justice2
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I have often wondered that myself. I have also thought maybe she was standing there when she cried out "Darin" which was later misinterpretated to be "Karen." But I don't think it lined up with the 911 call. However I have never taken the time to check it out myself. That tape will probably be the last thing I ever study closely. LOL!justice2 said:
Hadn't thought about that. I was still thinking before 911 call.
The garage door instead of the front door when yelling Darin. Hmm. The prints and blood on the door look like Darlie closed it. Can't remember if there is testimony as to whether it was open or closed when LE got there. Will have to check.
But we still have the noise that partially woke up the neighbor, that would have to be the front door. Hmm.
I've often wondered if D&D waited to stage outside until after the neighbor got home, so they wouldn't accidentaly get caught. Nothing points to this though. Just a thought.
The garage door instead of the front door when yelling Darin. Hmm. The prints and blood on the door look like Darlie closed it. Can't remember if there is testimony as to whether it was open or closed when LE got there. Will have to check.
But we still have the noise that partially woke up the neighbor, that would have to be the front door. Hmm.
I've often wondered if D&D waited to stage outside until after the neighbor got home, so they wouldn't accidentaly get caught. Nothing points to this though. Just a thought.
justice2 said:
That's only one trip towards the garage whilst she was bleeding. It's pretty clear that whoever cut the screen was not bleeding whilst they did so... or at least not bleeding profusely enough to have inevitably left blood marks in the garage. Had Darlie cut the screen during the few minutes of staging there would invariably have been blood traipsed through the garage. So either Darin did it (and I would argue that unless he was completely complict in the crime - which I very sincerely doubt- that he would not have done so during the few minutes of staging) or Darlie did it probably before she attacked the boys or at the very latest before she caused any significant injuries to herself.
Don't forget that there is blood on the edge of the U-room/garage door. It looks very much to me like Darlie held that door open by grasping onto the edge at some point. If Darin had been in their cutting the screen and she was standing at that door then it is highly unlikely she would have needed to screech his name loudly since he was only a few metres away. It seems more likely that she made her way back to that door to either back up the story she had invented about following the intruder (which is frankly almost beyond belief) or to reassure herself that her earlier staging in the garage would make the grade. In either case I don't see how she could have set foot inside the garage whilst she was bleeding.
Same goes for the bread knife as well. Whilst she might have wiped it clean (missing the microscopic evidence which was left on it) it is unlikely there would have been no blood transfer that wasn't wiped away if she was bleeding a lot when she used it to cut the screen.
Jimthecarpetguy
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Wasn't the gate also blood free and partially open too?
Jeana (DP)
Former Member
Jimthecarpetguy said:
There was no blood on the gate, but I don't recall it being partially open. What I remember hearing is that it was broken (even though they claim Darin fixed it just that day and that it must be lifted while being open because it dragged. For an "intruder(s) to take the time to do that and the close it behind him/them is a ridiculous theory in my opinion. After all, the "intruder(s) knew that Darlie was chasing them.
No, the dilapidated gate was closed. You would expect a fleeing intruder not to fool with lifting it up and taking the time to close it but according to darlie this one did. No blood past the garage floor right outside the Utility room door and that was probably a transfer from a policeman's shoe. That puts all the blood inside the house.Jimthecarpetguy said:
Goody said:
I'm not glued to it Goody (the other post I recently made in response to your other question along that line should show that).
All I'm doing is trying to fit the evidence into a hypothetical timeline. For instance I sincerely doubt she could have cut the screen after she had injured herself badly due to the lack of blood in the garage. Same goes for the sock.
In what ways do you think I am glued to the state's timeline? What alternatives would you offer to what I posted?
I don't remember where the other post is so I guess I missed it.Dani_T said:
I agree with you that she didn't cut the screen after she was inured or run the sock down the alley. So unless this was a cold blooded premeditated murder where she cut the screen before she'd even stabbed the boys, I don't think she did either. She must have had help with it.
I don't recall exactly what my thoughts were on your timeline. It just seems that we are always trying to make everything fit in that 10 minute timeframe and it seems very possible to me that Devon was killed as much as an hour or more before Damon was even stabbed, and if that is the case, there would have been sufficient time for an innocent Darin to be convinced to protect her and help her. I just can't believe he turned on a dime, going from hysterical father to husband protector in minutes all the while looking at his kids' bloodied bodies. As DK said, Darin is not a cruel man, and I believe that is true. He wasn't a and he would have needed time to work his way thru his options. I think Devon was the target and Damon part of the cover up. Or at least I think it is a strong possibility. I just don't buy the state's timeline.
If you believe that Darin is involved (which I think probably 90% of us think he was, just don't know how), then the time line really could have started as early as when Darin took Dana home, 10:30 I think. So I don't see how anyone could put a time line together when you have your choice of 4 hours or 10 minutes.
I think Darlie bleed slowly for quite a while, that would explain why her vitals were stable when she got in the abulance, her body had time to adjust. If she had bleed that much in 10 minutes I would think it would have showed up.
I think Darlie bleed slowly for quite a while, that would explain why her vitals were stable when she got in the abulance, her body had time to adjust. If she had bleed that much in 10 minutes I would think it would have showed up.
Goody said:
LOL- you just said pretty much the same thing as I did in that other post
We're on the same page I posted it a few days ago and have copied it below.Regarding Darin- I agree that he simply could not have turned on a dime and decided to protect Darlie. There is no way he came downstairs after she had killed them both and them within the space of a couple of minutes been enlisted into helping her stage the screen. For that to happen they both had to have been sociopaths. It is just far too unlikely.
But I also have problems with Darin deciding to cover up for her within an hour or so also. I mean just imagine the scene. They've been arguing (we presume) and Darin goes upstairs (maybe they have resolved it maybe not). He comes down a few hours later to find at least one of his sons murdered by his wife, their own mother. For him to decide even within an hour to protect her he has to come to grips with
a) the fact that she has murdered their own son, Devon, in cold blood
b) the fact that Damon is still vunerable (presuming he hasn't been injured yet) and could possibly also end up dead
c) his own wife is a cold blooded child murderer who has shown she is not afraid to use a knife. What's to stop Darin from thinking he's next?
Why wouldn't he be on the phone right then right there calling 911? Or out the front door screaming for help?
Within the space of an hour Darin, an ordinary guy who has shown no signs of any kind of sociopathy to our knowledge at all, has to be willing to at the very least protect his own children's killer and at the very worst allow his wife to kill another one of their children. I just do not buy it.
Unless she had something so BIG on him that he was backed into a corner with absolutely no possible way out and he was so scared by what she could reveal that it took precedence over his children's own lives and has ever sincem then I don't buy it. And I just don't see what that could be.
Yes, I can see him a few days after both boys have died deciding to protect her despite his suspicions she did it (which is why I think his trial testimony is so different to his affidavit)... probably for a whole range of reasons. but I don't see him being able to work through all of those either within a 5 minute period or an hour or so whilst he stands in the middle of a blood bath.
In my gut I still think Darin knows more than he is telling (which would make sense since he lived with her and would be able to put more pieces of the puzzle into place). I'm also troubled that he hasn't come out and said anything though can sort of understand why he hasn't (yet). But I just don't see him taking part in the crime whether it be being involved with the murders or actively taking part in the staging to protect her. I honestly think he came downstairs and found both of his kids bleeding on that floor and a wife screaming about some intruder. I think he believed her then and there (who wouldn't in that circumstance no matter how much you had argued earlier? Who would automatically think on the spot that their own mother could have done that to them?) but later (maybe not even too much later) began to see the holes in her story.
No. The coroner didn't even show up until well into the next day and the body only loses one to one and a half degrees temperature per hour after death. There is no time of death listed for Devon because he was dead before paramedics arrived. He could have easily been dead for an hour or more without them noticing because it was always assumed both kids were attacked at the same time and Damon died after help arrived, thus establishing the timeline.Dani_T said:
........
Why wouldn't he be on the phone right then right there calling 911? Or out the front door screaming for help?
Within the space of an hour Darin, an ordinary guy who has shown no signs of any kind of sociopathy to our knowledge at all, has to be willing to at the very least protect his own children's killer and at the very worst allow his wife to kill another one of their children. I just do not buy it.
Unless she had something so BIG on him that he was backed into a corner with absolutely no possible way out and he was so scared by what she could reveal that it took precedence over his children's own lives and has ever sincem then I don't buy it. And I just don't see what that could be.
Yes, I can see him a few days after both boys have died deciding to protect her despite his suspicions she did it (which is why I think his trial testimony is so different to his affidavit)... probably for a whole range of reasons. but I don't see him being able to work through all of those either within a 5 minute period or an hour or so whilst he stands in the middle of a blood bath.
In my gut I still think Darin knows more than he is telling (which would make sense since he lived with her and would be able to put more pieces of the puzzle into place). I'm also troubled that he hasn't come out and said anything though can sort of understand why he hasn't (yet). But I just don't see him taking part in the crime whether it be being involved with the murders or actively taking part in the staging to protect her. I honestly think he came downstairs and found both of his kids bleeding on that floor and a wife screaming about some intruder. I think he believed her then and there (who wouldn't in that circumstance no matter how much you had argued earlier? Who would automatically think on the spot that their own mother could have done that to them?) but later (maybe not even too much later) began to see the holes in her story.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, but he seemed just as detached afterwards as Darlie did and his defense of their trips and how they deserved the good life haunts me. I think more went down that swer than one sock and that whatever came about between them started in May after the suicide charade. Entries in her so called journal sound contrived to me. I don't know exactly what his role might have been but it appears to be much more than they want us to believe.
Why wouldn't he be on the phone right then right there calling 911? Or out the front door screaming for help?
Within the space of an hour Darin, an ordinary guy who has shown no signs of any kind of sociopathy to our knowledge at all, has to be willing to at the very least protect his own children's killer and at the very worst allow his wife to kill another one of their children. I just do not buy it.
Unless she had something so BIG on him that he was backed into a corner with absolutely no possible way out and he was so scared by what she could reveal that it took precedence over his children's own lives and has ever sincem then I don't buy it. And I just don't see what that could be.
Yes, I can see him a few days after both boys have died deciding to protect her despite his suspicions she did it (which is why I think his trial testimony is so different to his affidavit)... probably for a whole range of reasons. but I don't see him being able to work through all of those either within a 5 minute period or an hour or so whilst he stands in the middle of a blood bath.
In my gut I still think Darin knows more than he is telling (which would make sense since he lived with her and would be able to put more pieces of the puzzle into place). I'm also troubled that he hasn't come out and said anything though can sort of understand why he hasn't (yet). But I just don't see him taking part in the crime whether it be being involved with the murders or actively taking part in the staging to protect her. I honestly think he came downstairs and found both of his kids bleeding on that floor and a wife screaming about some intruder. I think he believed her then and there (who wouldn't in that circumstance no matter how much you had argued earlier? Who would automatically think on the spot that their own mother could have done that to them?) but later (maybe not even too much later) began to see the holes in her story.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, but he seemed just as detached afterwards as Darlie did and his defense of their trips and how they deserved the good life haunts me. I think more went down that swer than one sock and that whatever came about between them started in May after the suicide charade. Entries in her so called journal sound contrived to me. I don't know exactly what his role might have been but it appears to be much more than they want us to believe.
Goody said:
I have no problem with thinking that he could have been dead for an hour-ish. But I think if he had been dead for 3-4 hours then the paramedics would have had some idea of that. Rigor mortis normally starts setting in sometime around 3-4 hours (maybe less with small children?).
I'm also not sure we should say that the state 'assumed' the attacks happened right after each other. They certainly constructed the timeline they ran with at trial that way. But I don't think we can say they 'assumed' anything. In fact they would have had a better chance of fitting all the staging etc in if they hadn't made their timeline as it stands. If they had said Devon was killed earlier they wouldn't have been tied to the small amount of time between Damon's last wound and when he died as the entire staging period (taking into account the 911 call). There must have been a reason they claimed she did it one after the other.
Jeana (DP)
Former Member
Dani_T said:
Not from what I understand. They can only tell within a certain time frame (one to two hours). Also, air conditioning can affect the results and in this case, since we're talking about less than an hour, I would think it would be nearly impossible to be certain.
Dani_T said:
His autopsy was at 1:00 in the afternoon and he was in full rigor then. At one time I did a lot of research into this and I don't remember when exactly it starts but one telltale sign would be the blood sinking to the lowest part of the body. In this case to his backside. So that would limit how long he could have been dead without EMTs noticing. I don't recall saying anything about 3 or 4 hours. That is longer than I would expect. However, I will say that I take my temp twice daily and it fluctuates 2 or 3 degrees easily, so it is not like paramedics have a starting point. Since they don't know what his temp would have been alive, the fact that he loses a degree or so every hour wouldn't be noticable until the drop was significant. Two or three degrees would just not be noticeable.
Dani_T said:
The state did not have any evidence that there was a time span between the two killings, so they went with the theory that both were killed at the same time. But there is also no evidence that they were killed at the same time. Whether they assumed or it just made more sense to them is immaterial, me thinks, because they turned to Damon's stabbing for their timeline. But I have always felt that there were two crime scenes there, not just one, and that is why we don't see trails of blood like you do in many crime scenes. She was in and out of the two rooms doing something. Maybe because her first instinct was to try to clean up and hide what she'd done, then changed her mind when she realized how futile the effort was (she was just bleeding on top of what she was trying to clean), she or they came up with the cover story. Detectives say it is not unusual for people to change directions in a crime like this.
Also, while they made the timeline tight, if they had opened it up, even in a speculative nature, they would have had to account for a lot more of her actions, and without Darin's cooperation that would have left too many holes. I understand why they went with two deaths at one time. I am just not so sure it happened that way. I will admit though I can't say it didn't.