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  1. #1
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    For a relative newbie to this case

    I followed this case when it when it occured and for a year or two after, but I haven't for some years and am frankly rather surprised at the venom that is being spewed towards Patsy Ramsey after her death from cancer. I had honestly thought they had determined that the Ramsey's had nothing to do with JonBenet's death? Has it really been TWENTY years?!?

    I really don't have time to read the millions of threads on this. But please, someone convince me. Please someone give me some evidence that Patsy and/or John did this. I just don't see it.

    I'm asking this respectfully, also, as someone who has not followed the case. Please don't tear me a new one for not knowing, just give me a post or two that will prove their guilt.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Hi Hbgchick, no it hasn't been almost 20 years, just 9 1/2.

    No the Ramsey's have never been cleared and have remained under the "umbrella of suspicion". A judge did say that she believed there was more evidence that pointed to an intruder than to one of the Ramseys, but that's as far as it went. No official declaration of them being cleared though.

    I don't know who killed JB, but I don't believe it was Patsy (may she rest in peace). FWIW it could have been someone in the family, but I don't think we'll ever know.

  3. #3
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    I'm with you. I did follow the case early on and often wondered what really happened. JonBenet was such a beautiful child and I am sure it has been discussed many, many times that maybe, just maybe there was a jealous mom who had a daughter in the same pagents as JonBenet. Jealousy will eat you alive. I don't feel JonBenet's parents killed her. So sad Patsy passed away and is still being talked about so badly.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbgchick
    I followed this case when it when it occured and for a year or two after, but I haven't for some years and am frankly rather surprised at the venom that is being spewed towards Patsy Ramsey after her death from cancer. I had honestly thought they had determined that the Ramsey's had nothing to do with JonBenet's death? Has it really been TWENTY years?!?

    I really don't have time to read the millions of threads on this. But please, someone convince me. Please someone give me some evidence that Patsy and/or John did this. I just don't see it.

    I'm asking this respectfully, also, as someone who has not followed the case. Please don't tear me a new one for not knowing, just give me a post or two that will prove their guilt.

    Thanks.
    In April of 2003, a Federal Judge in Atlanta, Julie Carnes, issued a 93 page report dismissing, via summary judgment, a civil case filed against the Ramseys by Chris Wolfe, because the Ramsey's named him as a suspect in their book, "The Death Of Innocence". Her report, sans a criminal trial, judicially went as far as likely possible to clear the Ramsey's, name. She also censured Steve Thomas, a former Boulder detective (a pure amateur), and Chris Wolfe's attorney, Darney Hoffman.

    Judge Carnes supported the intruder storyline that was championed by retired homicide detective, Lou Smit. She evaluated the relevant evidence that was presented by both attorneys and said there was "abundant evidence" to support such a liklihood. She also chided/harpooned the Boulder police department for their case management and approach to the case and for using the media to villify the Ramseys.

    Boulder's D.A., supported Judge Carnes report.

    It deserves mention that Judge Carnes was particularly dismissive of any thought that Patsy murdered Jon Benet.
    It's not what a man knows that makes him a fool, it's what he does know that ain't so. .... Josh Billings

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wudge
    In April of 2003, a Federal Judge in Atlanta, Julie Carnes, issued a 93 page report dismissing, via summary judgment, a civil case filed against the Ramseys by Chris Wolfe, because the Ramsey's named him as a suspect in their book, "The Death Of Innocence". Her report, sans a criminal trial, judicially went as far as likely possible to clear the Ramsey's, name. She also censured Steve Thomas, a former Boulder detective (a pure amateur), and Chris Wolfe's attorney, Darney Hoffman.

    Judge Carnes supported the intruder storyline that was championed by retired homicide detective, Lou Smit. She evaluated the relevant evidence that was presented by both attorneys and said there was "abundant evidence" to support such a liklihood. She also chided/harpooned the Boulder police department for their case management and approach to the case and for using the media to villify the Ramseys.

    Boulder's D.A., supported Judge Carnes report.

    It deserves mention that Judge Carnes was particularly dismissive of any thought that Patsy murdered Jon Benet.
    Not so onesided. Great post.
    Amy

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker
    Hi Hbgchick, no it hasn't been almost 20 years, just 9 1/2.

    No the Ramsey's have never been cleared and have remained under the "umbrella of suspicion". A judge did say that she believed there was more evidence that pointed to an intruder than to one of the Ramseys, but that's as far as it went. No official declaration of them being cleared though.

    I don't know who killed JB, but I don't believe it was Patsy (may she rest in peace). FWIW it could have been someone in the family, but I don't think we'll ever know.
    This is good. I was feeling really, really old.

    Ok, so I guess I'm not crazy. So then there are just those who believe that Patsy had something to do with Jon Benet's murder based on speculation?

  7. #7
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    It's also just speculation that she didn't murder her daughter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bev
    It's also just speculation that she didn't murder her daughter.
    It is also speculation that an intruder did it.

  9. #9
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    What I guess I'm getting at, is all of the folks who are saying Patsy is "guilty" of murder or covering up a murder are speculating. She is not guilty, at least in the eyes of the law. Unfortunatly neither is OJ, but at least they had enough evidence to put him on trial and everyone knows the prosecution lost that case on it's own.

    Based on the question originally asked "...please, someone convince me. Please someone give me some evidence that Patsy and/or John did this.", it looks like there is none. So thanks for the opinions guys.

  10. #10
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    You can't find anything, Hbgchick? In all of these threads?

    Here, I'll repost something I said on another thread. Maybe this can help you see why people wonder about Patsy and if she was involved.


    The ransom note was written on a tablet belonging to Patsy with a pen from a cup right next to the pad. The author recapped the pen and placed it back when it came from. Intruder or resident? I'm thinking resident - a kidnapper (who calls himself a foreign faction, has "gentlemen" watching over JB?) would have brought his own note, and he would taken the child, even dead, because he could have ransomed the body. In fact, Patsy even gave an explanation to a friend of hers (Pam Griffin?) about innocuously writing the draft of the ransom note. And Patsy changed her handwriting style after the murder.

    Out of 73 people, Patsy alone was never excluded as the author of the note. Patsy herself said that she thought whoever wote that RN was also the killer - she also said she thought it could have been a woman (they threw all their friends under the bus, and guess what? They all check out okay). The RN used phrases and acronyms that were Patsy's standard style of speaking. What intruder is going to sit there in the Rs kitchen and ramble on for three pages, sounding just like Patsy, using writing that looks like hers, and making references to things only the Rs would know? What kidnapper asks for $118,000???

    The garotte - the end of one of Patsy's paintbrushes was used as the handle. The killer found Patsy's paint tray, broke the brush to the size she needed, and replaced the broken end in the tray. IMO, this indicates that the killer was used to using her own tools, did so, and just like with the Sharpie the RN was written with, replaced it after she was done. ODD behavior for an intruder, hmmm? What kidnapper/killer comes in without being prepared? What kidnapper stops to molest the victim before getting her out of there? Doesn't take the child? Isn't afraid of being caught by the residents? One of the residents themselves!

    The 911 call - Patsy never mentions once to the operator that just calling the police will have their daughter's head cut off. Never once says that the kidnapper claims to be watching the house. On top of that, they send their other child off to someone else's house, when the supposed kidnapper is supposed to be watching! Either they don't care that JB's head will be cut and Burke might get attacked too, or they know there is no intruder and never was a kidnapping. I'm voting for "they knew it". They also send Burke back to school within a few months of this attack with little concern that he will targeted. Burke tells police that he isn't afraid of this kidnapper/killer. WHY NOT???

    Patsy told two different stories for the events of the morning of the 26th. First she said she went to JB's room and found the bed empty then saw the note, then she changed it to she went downstairs and then saw the note and checked JB's room.

    John Ramsey has two different stories for the events Christmas night. He said first that he read to JB and put her to bed, then he changed it to he put her to bed and then he read a book. Three indendent police officers noted this story change.

    Burke Ramsey said JB was awake when they arrived home Christmas night and walked up the stairs behind Patsy. He told this to police who documented that his story differed from his parents' stories.

    It appears Patsy never went to bed Christmas night. When police arrived the morning of the 26th, Patsy was all made up and dressed in the same clothes she had worn the night before. She claims her shower was broken (but are four others in the house) and she just dressed and applied make up before going down to make coffee. What? A former beauty pageant winner, to whom appearances are very important, didn't shower and put on the same clothes she had worn the evening before, knowing they were going to meet the older kids for continued Christmas celebration? And who puts on make up before going down to make coffee?

    Patsy (and John) have selective amnesia. Patsy can tell you what decorations were put up in their home for the Parade of Homes Tour Dec 6, right down to where certain ornaments came from, but she cannot remember if JB had a bath Christmas Day. She can tell you what her exact routine was for the Miss West Virginia pageant in 1978, but she can't remember what JB had to eat the last day she was alive.

    And the pineapple...there was a bowl of pineapple on the table the morning of the 26th, bearing Patsy's fingerprints. The autopsy showed that JB had eaten pineapple sometime during Christmas evening, pineapple consistent right down to the rind with what was in the bowl on the Ramsey's table, and still the Rs insist JB was asleep when they got home - despite Burke saying she wasn't.

    There was no evidence of an intruder in the Ramsey home. No one broke in through that basement window, and friends of the Rs say they were serious about locking up (but Christmas Day is the only day they forgot to lock? Come ON!) DNA found in JB's undies was degraded, and indicates it came from a source other than someone breaking in and killing her and then leaving a 3 page ransom letter - and then not taking the child, which is what the RN claims is the whole reason they were there in the first place. And why didn't they target Burke also or instead? A foreign faction would target the SON, not the daughter.

    John Ramsey was on the phone arranging to leave Boulder less than 45 minutes after his daughter's body was found, and their lawyers were already closing in around them to block the police out. FOUR MONTHS before the Rs would talk to police.

    Patsy Ramsey was lying really hard to cover up for one of the Ramseys, I believe it was herself.
    Where is Trenton Duckett?


  11. #11
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    Thanks. The original post also requested politely that since I don't have time to go through alllll of the threads (mostly just one person saying "the Ramseys are guilty" and the next one saying "the Ramseys are not guilty") to try to obtain some real proof, maybe someone could help me.

    I would think, that if it were proved that it was her paintbrush, pad, and pen, that LE would have checked these items for fingerprints other than her own. Did they? Also, in Wudges post, it appears that some rather prominent people did indeed support the intruder scenario. I also think that I personally - if I had the inclination to break into someone's house and write a note and murder someone (which I don't) - would replace items like pens and paper where I found it. Just habit

    I don't know what killer asks for a specific amount, but I'd guess either the Ramseys as you suggested, or someone who knew that John's recently recieved bonus was exactly that amount so the Ramsey's might have had it handy to turn over.

    All of the possibilies you raise, at least in my mind, COULD point to the Ramseys. It also could also easily point to someone who knew them well. My friends and family know my habits, style of speech, etc. and could write a letter that "sounds" like me.

    I guess I was just looking for something a little more concrete. The "Patsy's guilty" folks believe things happened just as you said, and the "Patsy's not guilty" folks can explain it all away.

    I can understand that people may have felt that Patsy expoited Jon Benet because of the modeling, etc., but that's also pretty common in the south. I also think that it would be pretty easy to think she's guilty if you already had a preconcieved notion about her.

    Still looking for some proof.

  12. #12
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    A lot of things (ransom note, flashlight) had no fingerprints at all on them, and the police traced down everything they could. They were prevented from adequately doing their job by the DA's office who failed to issue warrants, etc. The FBI said "look at the parents. That's where you need to be." Hmmm.

    Prominent people who backed the intruder theory should look closer at the Ramsey family and their inconsistent stories and blatant refusal to cooperate and have a hard time sleeping at night knowing a child lies in her grave with her killer still loose while her parents want to "get on with their lives." Some of those people are corrupt enough to be bribed into looking anywhere but at the Rs, despite the evidence that "this was an inside job."

    Sure, friends of yours could write a note that sounds like you wrote it...but then they pass the handwriting tests and you don't?

    The Ramseys are covering for someone. They had told inconsistent stories and have random amnesia whenever it suits them best. They wouldn't lie this hard and this long for anyone other than one of their own.

    Just as with those who want to think PDI, those who don't want to think that will explain any number of things that don't add up as pointing at anyone other than Patsy.

    Patsy's abuse of JonBenet, imo, goes way farther than the child beauty pageants...her daughter was nothing more than an accessory to her, something that she could use to advance herself, a doll, a toy, a pet. A conversation piece. I have no doubt she loved JonBenet. I just don't believe JonBenet was allowed to be anyone other than who Patsy wanted JonBenet to be.

    Lemme make sure to MOO.
    Where is Trenton Duckett?

  13. #13
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    And thanks again, for your opinion.

    If there's anyone out there that can offer more than conjecture, I'd be very interested.

  14. #14
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    Someone did try to offer you more than conjecture and it seems you are not interested.

    I look at the R's behaviour post JBR's death.
    I know that doesn't stand up in a court of law but this case is never going to get there and I need resolution in my mind.

    The R's tried to leave town within an hour of their daughter's body being found.
    They didn't plan on taking her with them either.

    PR walked out of that house that day and didn't look back.
    I've heard all about how she acted when her daughter's body was found, wailing screaming, praying
    Yet she walked out of that house that day, leaving her precious daughter all by herself in the 'hell hole', no screaming, no wailing, no having to be dragged away....just walked out.
    Just like that.

    and THAT is called distancing, the pair of them just couldn't wait to get out of there.
    Then it took them 4 months to agree to be interviewed!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbgchick
    And thanks again, for your opinion.

    If there's anyone out there that can offer more than conjecture, I'd be very interested.
    Your wish is my command, Hbgchick! First, though:

    "Judge Carnes supported the intruder storyline that was championed by retired homicide detective, Lou Smit. She evaluated the relevant evidence that was presented by both attorneys and said there was "abundant evidence" to support such a liklihood."

    What many people forget, unless they are reminded, is that the judge was not ruling on the entire case, only the evidence that was presented before her. Hoffman, Wolf's atty., challenged almost none of the "evidence" the Ramseys presented, even though much of it was disputable. And when he put forth his witnesses, he did so in a way that guaranteed their failure. The judge said that his witnesses had made no attempt to demonstrate how they made their conclusions. True, BUT, Hoffman never asked them! One of them, a Mr. Epstein, said that in 30 years, this was the first time he had not been allowed to testify as to his methodology.

    "She also chided/harpooned the Boulder police department for their case management and approach to the case and for using the media to villify the Ramseys."

    Yes, she did, but it wasn't her call to make.

    "Boulder's D.A., supported Judge Carnes report."

    A decision the man who led the Grand Jury was highly critical of.

    "It deserves mention that Judge Carnes was particularly dismissive of any thought that Patsy murdered Jon Benet."

    Leaving aside possible bias, said GJ leader said that with the evidence that was presented (failed to present would be more apt) there was no other choice she could have made.

    Now for the nitty gritty. And please, don't kill the messenger. Remember: you did ask!

    Okay, no more stalling!

    First, we have some veeeeerrrryy interesting fiber evidence.

    MR. LEVIN: "Based on the state of the art scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she is wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

    The man speaking is Bruce Levin, a prosecutor working with the DA's office. What he's referring to specifically, and he pursues this elsewhere, is that fibers from Patsy's clothes were found tied into the knots of the cord JonBenet was garroted with. Patsy, at the time, offered no explanation. Indeed, if you've ever seen the tape of that interview, you'll see she almost passes out. Two years later, Patsy explained that the fiber transfer took place when she prayed over JB's body that morning. But that makes no sense. JB had already been covered with a blanket and sweatshirt. The Ramseys said so in their book. Also, the same fibers were in the box where the stick that the cord was wrapped around was taken from, but she claims she never went there wearing that item of clothing.

    Also, in one interview, from earlier, Patsy is asked about the heart drawn on JB's hand. She goes on to describe it in detail. The next day, when asked about it again, she claims she knows nothing about it.

    In another interview, maybe the same one, the policeman interviewing her tells her that he has evidence JB had been sexually assaulted more than once. He asks her how she feels about it. She says she's shocked, but then proceeds to try and change the subject.

    Another problem we have is the note. It contains several phrases and terms known to be frequently used by her and her relatives/friends. Plus, an handwriting expert consulted said he found 51 similarities between her writing and that of the note. Another one said he found no significant variances between them.

    And here's a really fun part: less than a year after the killing, a local handwriting expert/lawyer got caught in a sticky wicket. A man he represented made an attempt to purchase a copy of the note. This lawyer, Miller, went along. Even if he had known his guy was going to bribe the note's possesser, there was nothing he could have done to stop him. If he had called the cops, he could have been disbarred for breaching privilege. Miller made his analysis of the note, saying he was sure Patsy had written it. Now, here's where it gets REALLY nasty! The police arrested Miller and his client, he claims, at the behest of Hal Haddon, the Ramsey lawyer. I believe him, because the briber himself spent not jail time, but Miller was targeted with heavy artillery. He decided to go to trial. It took the jury less than three hours to find him not guilty. Miller claimed that he was only prosecuted because he said Patsy wrote the note. His claim was seemingly borne out at the trial. His defense pulled off a real coup at trial when a private investigator working on the Ramseys' behalf admitted that he had been ordered to dig up dirt on Miller because Miller's testimony might be devastating at trial. If the Ramseys knew about this, then they obviously have something to hide. If they didn't, one has to wonder why this was necessary. Either way, it's pretty disgraceful.

    And that's just for OPENERS! If you need more, hbgchick, believe me, I've got it!

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