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Thread: TN - Jellico (Campbell Co.), WhtFem 482UFTN, 11-13, Near Big Wheel Gap Rd. Apr'85

  1. #51
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    Does it say that Peggy Rahn has a DNA sample? The physical comparison between the photo of Peggy and UID 482UFTN is very compelling, but the time line is so off. Wouldn't Peggy have been old enough to be UID 482UFTN's mother? Or have I somehow gotten things confused. If Peggy has MtDNA this horrible possibility could be ruled out. But --wow, how close of a physical match can you get?

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanko View Post
    Does it say that Peggy Rahn has a DNA sample?
    According to DoeNet, they don't have fingerprints, dentals or DNA on Peggy Rahn.

    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2241dffl.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanko View Post
    Wouldn't Peggy have been old enough to be UID 482UFTN's mother? Or have I somehow gotten things confused?
    If the postmortem interval (i.e., 1-4 years) was accurate, yes - she would have been too old.

    In order to make the case that this is Peggy, the presumption would be that the PM interval was underestimated.

    But we just recently saw a person ID'd (Beddie Walraven) whose skull was found in the California desert in 1971 with an estimated PM interval of 1-10 years. It turned out that she died in 1946 (i.e., 25 years prior).

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146577"]Identified! CA - Baker - Female Skeletal Found in Desert Jan 1971 - Beddie Walraven (Died 1946)[/ame]

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  5. #53
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    I found these three articles (Dated 09-Jan-1970, 29-Jan-1970, and 13-Feb-1970) in Ancestry.com.



    Interesting that the suspect, Kenneth Guy Shilts of Battle Creek MI was arrested in Alabama a couple of months after the disappearance, which occurred in southern Florida. He carried a diary which contained an entry "Peggy and Wendy - Pompano Beach". The Charley writeup on the two girls focuses on Gerald Schaefer Jr. as the probable perp.

    But if Shilts is the perp, it is not inconceivable that he transported at least one of them up to Tennessee, considering that he was known to be a drifter who traveled state to state.

    ETA:

    Here's another from the Kingsport Times dated 12-Feb-1970

    Last edited by CarlK90245; 10-08-2012 at 11:59 AM.

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  7. #54
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    Thanks for the articles CarlK90245. Let us know if you find anything more about the drifter and what came of that.

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  9. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanko View Post
    Thanks for the articles CarlK90245. Let us know if you find anything more about the drifter and what came of that.
    He died in 1991, but no mention of whether he was convicted of any of the 50 molestations of which he was suspected.

    http://www.histopolis.com/Grave/Deta...veID=736835184

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  11. #56
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    just catching up on this thread... I didn't submit Peggy as a possible match (at least I can't find a record in my emails of any submission). I didn't get much of a response when I posted the original thread, which I figure was due to the significant difference in the estimated date of death. However, seeing Carl's overlay gives me pause-- the resemblance is just so compelling. Also, the age range for the UID is 9 to 14 years so the gap could be reduced with the possibility that Peggy was held for a long period and then murdered.

    I feel out of my element when dealing with LE or ME so I avoid it unless all (or most) identifiers line up, but if anyone else would like to take this ball and run with it, please feel free.

    This little girl has gone unidentified long enough and perhaps it is as simple as a mistake in the time line that has kept her nameless all these years.

    p.s. I also think it is noteworthy that Katherine Lyon and Peggy Rahn so strongly resemble each other. Same age, same coloring, same hair style, both from southern states, only 6 years between abductions, etc...
    "Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment."~ Dot Parker

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  13. #57
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    that smiling photo of Peggy in that article should be added to the Doe Network and Namus pages.
    "Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment."~ Dot Parker

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  15. #58
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    I just spoke with Lee Jantz of the Univ of Tennessee, Knoxville. She is the NamUs case manager for this case.

    I asked her how certain they were about the postmortem interval. She says that the skull had been there for at least a year and a half. The bones were dry and had no odor, and there was a wasp's nest in the cranial vault (which would be unlikely with fresher remains). She said the upper-end of the timeframe (i.e., 3-5 years) was based on the relatively good condition of the bones. They were not badly weathered.

    She said that they had thought they had a match to a "Kentucky girl" (who I am presuming to be Ann Gotlib) based on an image overlay of the skull to her photo, but when they got dentals to compare, she turned out not to be a match.

    I gave her the names of Peggy Rahn, and the Lyon Sisters (Sheila and Katherine), and told her that the timeframes were probably too long based on what she had just told me.

    She took the names down and said that she would check them out. Even if they are unlikely, they should be positively ruled out anyway.

    She says that she hasn't had time recently to look into these cases. She is a college professor, and there are exams currently taking place and students chomping at the bit to find out how they did on the exams. But when the rush is over with, she will look into these submissions, and a couple others that I submitted a couple of weeks ago on a different UID.

    She also said that contrary to what is said in this Jane Doe's NamUs file, they have both Nuclear (nucDNA) and Mitochondrial (mtDNA) on her. However, since the nucDNA profile was extracted at Bode Laboratories (a private company), they cannot enter it in CODIS. CODIS only accepts DNA profile information from Univ of North Texas and the various state labs. Consequently, nucDNA comparisons are done manually, and mtDNA comparisons are handled in CODIS.

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  17. #59
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    That's a good bit of useful info, about CODIS and private DNA labs.

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  19. #60
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    Has anyone ever proposed David Warner for this UID? I know he's male, but bigger mistakes have been made. The timeline seems pretty close and the areas are only an hour and a half apart. Thoughts?

    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/4361dmtn.html



    David Warner
    Missing since March 2, 1983 from Jefferson City, Tennessee
    Classification: Endangered Missing



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Vital Statistics

    Date Of Birth: January 30, 1971
    Age at Time of Disappearance: 12 years old
    Distinguishing Characteristics: White male. Blond hair; dark eyes. Slender build.
    Clothing: Blue jeans, a black and white Pittsburgh Steelers sweatshirt and tennis shoes.
    Dentals: Buck teeth.
    Medical: Epilepsy
    AKA: Little David


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Circumstances of Disappearance
    On March 2, 1983 David Warner planned to go to a function at a small independent church a few doors up the street from his Beeler Avenue home. David walked up to the church but didn't go in, then, he went on up the street. He went to Druther's Restaurant in Jefferson City, and got a hamburger. Later, he watched TV at a friend's house until 19.00, then told the friend he was going to his house, about 30 yards away.

    The next morning his family discovered he was not at home, although his bed covers were bundled up in a way that could be viewed as a ploy to make it appear he was in bed.
    At first, police thought David had gone off with some friends, or maybe run away.
    Authorities launched a massive search, but no trace of David was ever found.
    Foul play is suspected.

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  21. #61
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    I know she was already mentioned but I do see a resemblance between Toni and the Jane Doe. Also, looking at the circumstances of her abduction, it's possible that she was abducted by someone who is driving through town...and then he drove down to Tennessee....

    Toni Lynn McNatt-Chiapetta? http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...etta_toni.html

  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    I know she was already mentioned but I do see a resemblance between Toni and the Jane Doe. Also, looking at the circumstances of her abduction, it's possible that she was abducted by someone who is driving through town...and then he drove down to Tennessee....

    Toni Lynn McNatt-Chiapetta? http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...etta_toni.html
    I think she's worth looking at. Her eyes look different then the UID, but I'm not sure how much this matters. The bracelet would probably be a good clue...I bet someone would know if that was Toni's.

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  24. #63
    There is DNA from her mother available. I do not know if it is in CODIS but the FBI took the sample about 6 years ago. According the the Det working the cold case in Broward Co.
    Still in One Peace

  25. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by traacker13 View Post
    Is it possible that these two decedents could have been sisters?

    One UID was found in Cheatham County, Tennessee in 1981 and one UID was found in Campbell County, Tennessee in 1985.

    Is it possible that these girls could be the missing Lyon sisters, Sheila and Katherine Lyon who disappeared from Maryland in 1975?

    Katherine Lyon: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/65dfmd.html
    Sheila Lyon: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/64dfmd.html
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    There is DNA available for the Lyon sisters. No indication of whether they are in CODIS, but if so, it would presumably be a rule-out by default.

    But perhaps they might be Peggy Rahn and/or her friend Wendy Brown Stevenson.

    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...son_wendy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/rahn_peggy.html

    ...
    Speaking of this case being possibly related with another UID case in connection with related MP cases:

    Perhaps Victoria Sanchez could be the Campbell County Jane Doe:


    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._victoria.html

    ... and her friend Yvonne Mestas, the Bowling Green Jane Doe. (which I already suggested on that thread):


    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...as_yvonne.html

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7701209"]KY KY - Bowling Green - Female 526UFKY, 12-20, July 1984[/ame]


    The timelines of both UID cases are reasonably consistent to the Mestas/Sanchez DLC.

    Aside from the difference in ethnicity, both girls are consistent to the respective UID cases in terms of age, height, etc. I have seen other instances where UID's classified as Caucasian have turned out to be Hispanic (and vice-versa). The differences in skull structure between Hispanics and Caucasians are not as notable as the differences between other races.

    Bowling Green KY and Campbell County TN are about 200 miles apart, and are located near a logical route to the Southern Atlantic coast from Southern Colorado (i.e., I-70 to I-84).

    http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Ro...mra=ls&t=m&z=5
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 10-08-2012 at 12:12 PM.

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  27. #65
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    Wow, Carl!!! This looks like a good match and would make the most logical sense as to the possibility that these are connected. I think you should def. call this in! I especially see the resemblence with Yvonne to the Bowling Green Jane Doe. I can see it with Victoria Sanchez and the Campbell County Jane Doe too.

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  29. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by traacker13 View Post
    Wow, Carl!!! This looks like a good match and would make the most logical sense as to the possibility that these are connected. I think you should def. call this in! I especially see the resemblence with Yvonne to the Bowling Green Jane Doe. I can see it with Victoria Sanchez and the Campbell County Jane Doe too.
    I called in the possible of Yvonne to BGJD a couple of months ago. I know it is being looked at.

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  31. #67
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    I think there was a mistake when it was reported that Charlotte Kinsey had silver caps on her lower front teeth. She may have had caps on the sides but I strongly feel that she did not have any in the front. I'm her sister I am much younger but our sister that is 4yrs older then Charlotte said she doesnt recall any silver caps in the front and we havent found any pictures of her with caps in the front. I called to get a DNA exclusion. I still havent heard back

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  33. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanko View Post
    Had some contact with LE. Sent in three names, Raylene Helsley, Sherry Marler and Charlotte Kinsey. The reply was that two were eliminated and the third needed to be looked at. So if one of those eliminated was Raylene, who's the other one? I sure think the composite looks like Sherry. Now we just wait and see on this one.
    I can only find one of the three sent in on the excluded list. I called and ask for a DNA camparision on my sister Charlotte Kinsey several weeks ago and am still waiting to get the results. Does anyone know if Raylene was excluded? They said Charlotte had not been excluded when I called.

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  35. #69
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    When looking at this case, I would suggest looking at southern Ohio missing also.

    I live in southern Ohio. And over the years there has been a migration of Ky. and Tenn people coming north to find work as Ohio has more industry. But the people of Tenn and Ky hold strong ties to Ky and Tenn, return frequently to visit and etc. And 75 is a straight shot to Tenn and goes right through Campbell Cty.

    Campbell Cty residents feel that people from other areas may see Campbell Cty as a good dump site because parts are so isolated.
    Just when I think that I have seen the most depraved things a human can do to another human, somebody posts a new story...........

    Why is it that when a custodial parent fails to provide for a child it is called neglect and is a criminal matter. But when a non custodial parent fails to provide it is called failure to support and is a civil matter?


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  37. #70
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    The whole reason why I started looking at matching the unidentified to missing people was because of Cherie Mahan, missing from my area. The first possible match I turned in was this UID, comparing to Cherie. It was years ago, I wish I remember who I contacted. (I think it might have been Rocky Wells at Doe Network) I think she was ruled out but I thought they resembled eachother, and Cherie was last seen wearing boots, and the UID was found with a pair of nearby. Cherie was 8 when she went missing, and I believe she was just too little and young to be this UID, even though the Doe Network says the UID age is between 9-15, and NamUS says 10-14. Cherie also isn't on the ruleout list.... Here is Cherie's charley profile.http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_cherrie.html

  38. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartersmina View Post
    I can only find one of the three sent in on the excluded list. I called and ask for a DNA camparision on my sister Charlotte Kinsey several weeks ago and am still waiting to get the results. Does anyone know if Raylene was excluded? They said Charlotte had not been excluded when I called.
    Cartermina,

    Here are the list of ruleouts from NamUs, last updated March 28th

    Donna Barnhill
    Tracy Byrd
    Debra J Cole
    Melina Creech
    Ruth Ann Fields
    Melanie Flynn
    Rachel Garden
    Anna Gotlib
    Mary Ann Hogland-McCluskey
    Barbra Jean Pauley Hunt
    Patricia LeBlanc
    Sherry Marler
    Tiffany Papesh
    Kristi Vorak 1969

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  40. #72
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    When I was little I rember hearing that at one point Royal Russell Long had told a cell mate that he had put Charlotte and Cinda in an old oil well shaft. I dont know it to be fact but I rember hearing the conversation. I dont think he dumped them together, because when Christy Gross was found her friends' remains were not at the same location. I tried backtracking, I listed all the girls that police thought he had abducted, most were never found but 2 were, I was trying to figure out how much effort he put into dumping/hiding the girls afterwards.

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  42. #73
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    It has been suggested by another websleuther, MissSunshine, that the following missing girl might be a match with the Campbell County Jane Doe:

    Shannon Lee Potter, 13, Missing since March 3, 1984 from Baltimore, MD

    Not mentioned in this case summary is that the family recieved a postcard postmarked about a week after Shannon's disappearance from Florida. This could mean that Shannon or her abductor may have traveled from Maryland to Florida immediately following her disappearance.

    Shannon went missing almost exactly a year before the discovery of Campbell County Jane Doe.

    There is also some discussion about Campbell County Jane Doe in this "Unidentified" section on a thread titled "Greene County Jane Doe". That unidentified teenaged girl was found the same time as the Campbell County body, and only two counties away. Could both homicides be related?

    ---------------------------------------
    Shannon Lee Potter
    Missing since March 3, 1984 from Baltimore, Maryland
    Classification: Non-Family Abduction

    Vital Statistics

    Date Of Birth: July 20, 1970
    Age at Time of Disappearance: 13 years old
    Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'5; 140 pounds
    Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Brown hair; brown eyes.
    Marks, Scars: Scars on her abdomen and near her left eye. Fractured pelvis.
    Clothing: Shannon may have been wearing high khaki boots and a white fur coat.
    Dentals: Available.
    DNA: Available.

    Circumstances of Disappearance

    Potter was last seen in her hometown of Baltimore, Maryland on March 3, 1984.
    She lived with her mother in Parkville, and she left home one night through a bedroom window, leaving a note.

    Her family thought she'd go stay with her father or someone else in the family. Foul play is suspected.

    Investigators
    If you have any information concerning Potter's whereabouts, please contact:

    Baltimore County Police Department
    Unit's Unsolved Case Squad
    410-887-3943

    Email: bcopd@co.ba.md.us

    All information may be submitted anonymously.

    Agency Case Number: 08E114810

    NCMEC #: NCMC601868

    NCIC Number: M217369344


    Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

    Source Information:
    The National Center For Missing and Exploited Children
    Baltimore County
    Florida Missing Children Information Clearinghouse
    The Doe Network: Case File 356DFMD

    LINK:

    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/356dfmd.html

  43. #74
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    Here is a link to the Websleuths thread on the Greene County (Tennessee) Jane Doe also found in April 1985. Could there be a connection?


    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29162"]TN TN - Greene County - White Female 264UFTN, 15-17, 6-Wks Pregnant - Apr'85 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
    Last edited by Richard; 08-31-2012 at 09:19 AM. Reason: spelling

  44. #75
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    the boots found with the doe

    I read I believe in Namus report that the boots were described as "hiking" type boots.. not cowboy boots. So, probably not Raylene. But hiking boots are generally "lace up" boots, so that would not rule out someone that is missing that was described as having "lace up shoes".

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