Cherokee
Well-Known Member
On 01-14-2004 Maxi said:
>A more likely possibility, imo, is that Patsy herself inflicted the scrape on JBR's hymen with her fingernails. Given the type of injury, their shallow position within the vaginal vault, and the position of a young child's hymen, I think they could have been inflicted by a too vigorous wiping of a wiggling child.<
Then Why_Nutt said:
>I can agree with that theory. The entire pedophile-intruder theory ignores that most important word: "shallow." The injury just barely grazed JonBenet's interior. How could that possibly be if someone was intent on probing her for pleasure? It is that very shallowness which, in my opinion, is at the heart of any "gentle molestation" claim. If the abrasion represents a graze from a fingernail, then, of course, the birefrigent material may be a flake from nail polish. This makes sense. A pedophile rooting around in JonBenet's underwear, leaving DNA on her panties but not on her genitalia, and managing to abrade her inside while leaving not a scratch on her pubic area or labia, does not make sense.<
Maxi and Why_Nutt have opened my eyes to a different perspective on what might have really happened to JonBenet.
Without a doubt Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. The small piece of duct tape over JBRs mouth did not have saliva or mouth/teeth prints on it and the cords around JBRs wrists were loose. Competent LE (including the FBI) and knowlegeable forum posters know the crime scene was staged. There was an attempt to cover-up what really happened to JonBenet.
Even though I believe the Ramseys, particulary Patsy, were involved in JBRs death and subsequent cover-up, it was always hard for me to fathom any of the Ramseys molesting JBR (even slightly) with a broken paintbrush. That part has probably kept many people from believing in Ramsey guilt.
After reading the above posts by Maxi and Why_Nutt, I suddenly realized the molestation with the paintbrush did not necessarily happen. It is conjecture, not proven fact. Because there was a miniscule amount of birefrigent material found in JBRs vagina, it was theorized by some, and ASSUMED by others, that the birefrigent flake came from a paintbrush. That is not necessarily true. Why_Nutt is right that it could have come from fingernail polish.
Lets look at a scenario that fits all of the evidence available to us.
The Ramseys arrive home on Christmas night. Burke says JBR was awake and went up the stairs on her own. She walks through the kitchen ahead of her parents who are busy with other things. She sees a bowl of pineapple on the table and since she had not eaten much at the Whites house, she grabs a couple of pieces with her hands and pops them in her mouth.
Neither John nor Patsy see her do this, and so do not know that pineapple will later be found in JBRs stomach. JBR's grabbing and eating the pineapple would explain the sticky residue found on her hands during the autopsy.
Eventually, JBR is put to bed, and Patsy (still in the clothes she wore to the Whites) is in a hurry to finish packing and get to bed since they are leaving early in the morning. JBR has been put to bed in the red top she wore to the Whites along with thermal leggings because Patsy can't find JBR's pajamas. Patsy also puts JBR in a pull-up with over-sized panties in case JBR has a night-time accident.
As we all know, the photos of the Whites Christmas party have never been released, and there is a reason. It is my belief they show JBR wearing the red top. When first questioned, Patsy said JBR wore the red top to the Whites Christmas party, but later, she changed her story and said JBR wore a white top. Patsy had to change her story because JBR was found in the white top, and she and John said JBR was asleep when they got home.
Before Patsy goes to bed, she decides to get JBR up to go to the bathroom in to keep her dry for the morning. She goes to JBRs room and tries to rouse the sleeping JBR. As Nedra said, JBR did not like being wakened and taken out of bed, and she may have fought Patsy. Patsy half drags a reluctant and fussy JBR to the bathroom. There Patsy discovers that JBR has already wet her pull-ups, and she starts to undress JBR to clean her up. There is no urine on JBRs bed sheets as the pull-ups caught it all.
Patsy sets JBR on the toilet, and JBR is whining and struggling to get free and back to bed. Patsy, who is tired and feeling pressured, is trying to pull off JBRs leggings, her oversize panties and her wet pull-up in order to change her. Patsy is getting very exasperated with JBRs non-cooperation. She tries to wipe JBRs bottom as JBR struggles to get down from the potty. Because JBRs is squirming, Patsys fingernail catches part of the interior of JBRs vagina as she wipes JBR. JBR yells and begins to cry, You hurt me. JBR furiously starts trying to get away from Patsy.
Patsy grabs hold of JBRs red shirt top (with her right hand) to gain control of JBR and to pull her close to calm her down. By this time, a completely irrational and exhausted JBR is struggling and pulling with all her might against her mother in a test of wills. As JBR pulls away, Patsy tightens her grip on the shirt top with JBRs full weight going against her. Patsy is also trying to get hold of JBR with her left hand, but JBR is flailing at her. Somehow during the struggle, Patsy loses her grip on JBR and with opposite motion, JBR is flung away from Patsy and hits her head on a hard porcelain surface.
Patsy watches horrified as JBR lies still. She grabs JBR up in her arms, and rocks and moans and prays that JBR will be all right. Patsy still has on the rings she wore to the Whites dinner party, and as she holds JBR close, the rings of one hand make a mark on JBRs lower right face and the rings of her other hand make marks on JBRs back. JBR doesnt respond, and Patsy thinks she is dead. Immediately, in her hysterical state, Patsy thinks she will be charged with JBRs murder (even unintentional manslaughter) and she is afraid she will lose Burke and her family. What to do?
In her panic, Patsy begins the cover-up. She finishes removing the red top from JBR, balling it up near the sink (where it was found later), and puts JBR in a white top (the one JBR wanted to wear to the White's). She cleans JBR including wiping her legs for urine. Patsy has already removed JBRs wet pull-up, so she puts the oversize, fresh-out-of-the-package panties (that JBR wore over her pull-ups) back on JBR. She decides to stage a fake kidnapping that went bad, but before she can write the ransom note, she must do something with JBRs body.
Patsy gets a blanket from the dryer upstairs and carries JBR down stairs to the room they call the wine cellar. It is very secluded and hard to find. Its the one place she can think of that neither Burke, nor anyone else, might accidentally find JBR before the police do. She realizes she has to do more than write a ransom note, and Patsy thinks to construct a ligature of some sort. In her mind, it will point to an intruder AND will also remove any strangulation marks that might show up because of her grip on JBRs shirt during the struggle.
Patsy is now in a semi-state of shock, and on autopilot. She breaks one of her paintbrushes and finds some cord that JBR had removed from some doll packaging. Patsy knows a few knots from sailing and even more knots from when she did macrame. She ties the cord on to the broken paint stick. Some of the fibers from her red top get caught in the ligature, but they are so small, Patsy doesnt notice. Then she gets behind JBR (so she doesnt have to see her face) and pulls the ligature tight a couple of times. She is careful not to pull too tight, but then leaves the ligature around JBRs neck for "evidence" of an intruder. Later post mortem swelling will make the ligature look very tight against JBRs neck.
By this time JBR has truly died and begun to go into rigor mortis. In an effort to make it look like an intruder had bound a kidnapped JBR, Patsy takes the rest of the cord not used for the ligature and loosely ties it around JBRs upraised arms. Patsy gets a small piece of duct tape from her paint box that she uses to keep brushes together and puts it over JBRs mouth. Then she gently places JBR in the blanket, and wraps her lovingly like a papoose. Patsy then turns off the light and relatches the door.
Now Patsy must write a ransom note, and this takes up quite a bit of time, especially since she has to wear gloves so as not to leave any fingerprints on the note. After she finally finishes, she places the ransom note on the circular steps. She starts calling for John.
It may be that in Patsys panic, she woke up John and told him what happened, and he helped her with some of the staging. Patsy assured him it was an accident, and for his own reasons, whether to keep the family together and have a mom for Burke, or whether Patsy had something on John, he decided to go along with her story.
The whole point of my post is to say that the molestation with the paint brush is not a FACT. It could have been caused by Patsys fingernail while wiping JBR at the toilet.
Please do not misinterpret what I have said. I do not believe Patsy flew into a rage at JBR because of a bed-wetting incident. I believe there was a struggle between Patsy and JBR in the bathroom, and there was a horrific accident. In Patsys terrified and panicked mind, she feared she would lose everything. The image of her perfect family and perfect world would be lost.
IMO
>A more likely possibility, imo, is that Patsy herself inflicted the scrape on JBR's hymen with her fingernails. Given the type of injury, their shallow position within the vaginal vault, and the position of a young child's hymen, I think they could have been inflicted by a too vigorous wiping of a wiggling child.<
Then Why_Nutt said:
>I can agree with that theory. The entire pedophile-intruder theory ignores that most important word: "shallow." The injury just barely grazed JonBenet's interior. How could that possibly be if someone was intent on probing her for pleasure? It is that very shallowness which, in my opinion, is at the heart of any "gentle molestation" claim. If the abrasion represents a graze from a fingernail, then, of course, the birefrigent material may be a flake from nail polish. This makes sense. A pedophile rooting around in JonBenet's underwear, leaving DNA on her panties but not on her genitalia, and managing to abrade her inside while leaving not a scratch on her pubic area or labia, does not make sense.<
Maxi and Why_Nutt have opened my eyes to a different perspective on what might have really happened to JonBenet.
Without a doubt Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. The small piece of duct tape over JBRs mouth did not have saliva or mouth/teeth prints on it and the cords around JBRs wrists were loose. Competent LE (including the FBI) and knowlegeable forum posters know the crime scene was staged. There was an attempt to cover-up what really happened to JonBenet.
Even though I believe the Ramseys, particulary Patsy, were involved in JBRs death and subsequent cover-up, it was always hard for me to fathom any of the Ramseys molesting JBR (even slightly) with a broken paintbrush. That part has probably kept many people from believing in Ramsey guilt.
After reading the above posts by Maxi and Why_Nutt, I suddenly realized the molestation with the paintbrush did not necessarily happen. It is conjecture, not proven fact. Because there was a miniscule amount of birefrigent material found in JBRs vagina, it was theorized by some, and ASSUMED by others, that the birefrigent flake came from a paintbrush. That is not necessarily true. Why_Nutt is right that it could have come from fingernail polish.
Lets look at a scenario that fits all of the evidence available to us.
The Ramseys arrive home on Christmas night. Burke says JBR was awake and went up the stairs on her own. She walks through the kitchen ahead of her parents who are busy with other things. She sees a bowl of pineapple on the table and since she had not eaten much at the Whites house, she grabs a couple of pieces with her hands and pops them in her mouth.
Neither John nor Patsy see her do this, and so do not know that pineapple will later be found in JBRs stomach. JBR's grabbing and eating the pineapple would explain the sticky residue found on her hands during the autopsy.
Eventually, JBR is put to bed, and Patsy (still in the clothes she wore to the Whites) is in a hurry to finish packing and get to bed since they are leaving early in the morning. JBR has been put to bed in the red top she wore to the Whites along with thermal leggings because Patsy can't find JBR's pajamas. Patsy also puts JBR in a pull-up with over-sized panties in case JBR has a night-time accident.
As we all know, the photos of the Whites Christmas party have never been released, and there is a reason. It is my belief they show JBR wearing the red top. When first questioned, Patsy said JBR wore the red top to the Whites Christmas party, but later, she changed her story and said JBR wore a white top. Patsy had to change her story because JBR was found in the white top, and she and John said JBR was asleep when they got home.
Before Patsy goes to bed, she decides to get JBR up to go to the bathroom in to keep her dry for the morning. She goes to JBRs room and tries to rouse the sleeping JBR. As Nedra said, JBR did not like being wakened and taken out of bed, and she may have fought Patsy. Patsy half drags a reluctant and fussy JBR to the bathroom. There Patsy discovers that JBR has already wet her pull-ups, and she starts to undress JBR to clean her up. There is no urine on JBRs bed sheets as the pull-ups caught it all.
Patsy sets JBR on the toilet, and JBR is whining and struggling to get free and back to bed. Patsy, who is tired and feeling pressured, is trying to pull off JBRs leggings, her oversize panties and her wet pull-up in order to change her. Patsy is getting very exasperated with JBRs non-cooperation. She tries to wipe JBRs bottom as JBR struggles to get down from the potty. Because JBRs is squirming, Patsys fingernail catches part of the interior of JBRs vagina as she wipes JBR. JBR yells and begins to cry, You hurt me. JBR furiously starts trying to get away from Patsy.
Patsy grabs hold of JBRs red shirt top (with her right hand) to gain control of JBR and to pull her close to calm her down. By this time, a completely irrational and exhausted JBR is struggling and pulling with all her might against her mother in a test of wills. As JBR pulls away, Patsy tightens her grip on the shirt top with JBRs full weight going against her. Patsy is also trying to get hold of JBR with her left hand, but JBR is flailing at her. Somehow during the struggle, Patsy loses her grip on JBR and with opposite motion, JBR is flung away from Patsy and hits her head on a hard porcelain surface.
Patsy watches horrified as JBR lies still. She grabs JBR up in her arms, and rocks and moans and prays that JBR will be all right. Patsy still has on the rings she wore to the Whites dinner party, and as she holds JBR close, the rings of one hand make a mark on JBRs lower right face and the rings of her other hand make marks on JBRs back. JBR doesnt respond, and Patsy thinks she is dead. Immediately, in her hysterical state, Patsy thinks she will be charged with JBRs murder (even unintentional manslaughter) and she is afraid she will lose Burke and her family. What to do?
In her panic, Patsy begins the cover-up. She finishes removing the red top from JBR, balling it up near the sink (where it was found later), and puts JBR in a white top (the one JBR wanted to wear to the White's). She cleans JBR including wiping her legs for urine. Patsy has already removed JBRs wet pull-up, so she puts the oversize, fresh-out-of-the-package panties (that JBR wore over her pull-ups) back on JBR. She decides to stage a fake kidnapping that went bad, but before she can write the ransom note, she must do something with JBRs body.
Patsy gets a blanket from the dryer upstairs and carries JBR down stairs to the room they call the wine cellar. It is very secluded and hard to find. Its the one place she can think of that neither Burke, nor anyone else, might accidentally find JBR before the police do. She realizes she has to do more than write a ransom note, and Patsy thinks to construct a ligature of some sort. In her mind, it will point to an intruder AND will also remove any strangulation marks that might show up because of her grip on JBRs shirt during the struggle.
Patsy is now in a semi-state of shock, and on autopilot. She breaks one of her paintbrushes and finds some cord that JBR had removed from some doll packaging. Patsy knows a few knots from sailing and even more knots from when she did macrame. She ties the cord on to the broken paint stick. Some of the fibers from her red top get caught in the ligature, but they are so small, Patsy doesnt notice. Then she gets behind JBR (so she doesnt have to see her face) and pulls the ligature tight a couple of times. She is careful not to pull too tight, but then leaves the ligature around JBRs neck for "evidence" of an intruder. Later post mortem swelling will make the ligature look very tight against JBRs neck.
By this time JBR has truly died and begun to go into rigor mortis. In an effort to make it look like an intruder had bound a kidnapped JBR, Patsy takes the rest of the cord not used for the ligature and loosely ties it around JBRs upraised arms. Patsy gets a small piece of duct tape from her paint box that she uses to keep brushes together and puts it over JBRs mouth. Then she gently places JBR in the blanket, and wraps her lovingly like a papoose. Patsy then turns off the light and relatches the door.
Now Patsy must write a ransom note, and this takes up quite a bit of time, especially since she has to wear gloves so as not to leave any fingerprints on the note. After she finally finishes, she places the ransom note on the circular steps. She starts calling for John.
It may be that in Patsys panic, she woke up John and told him what happened, and he helped her with some of the staging. Patsy assured him it was an accident, and for his own reasons, whether to keep the family together and have a mom for Burke, or whether Patsy had something on John, he decided to go along with her story.
The whole point of my post is to say that the molestation with the paint brush is not a FACT. It could have been caused by Patsys fingernail while wiping JBR at the toilet.
Please do not misinterpret what I have said. I do not believe Patsy flew into a rage at JBR because of a bed-wetting incident. I believe there was a struggle between Patsy and JBR in the bathroom, and there was a horrific accident. In Patsys terrified and panicked mind, she feared she would lose everything. The image of her perfect family and perfect world would be lost.
IMO
