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  1. #1
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    For Karr to be a red herring.....

    Okay, let's play devil's advocate.

    If Karr is just some kook that didn't do it but is deriving some sadistic pleasure out of this whole thing or is a patsy, you have to believe something along the following lines (or some combination):

    1) That John Ramsey is personally guilty or is continuing to cover for a family member. John, in his infinite wisdom, decides that he needs a patsy---this despite the fact that to this day he has 10 years behind him and seasoned police/investigators on his side that would probably prevent his prosecution and would almost certainly guarantee no conviction--if he was even idicted. So after the safety of odd evidence, bungling by the police, war inside the police and DA's offices, and 10 years of road behind him, he still decides he needs to take the risk and get a patsy. Where does one find a patsy that fits 10 years after the fact? One who was in Boulder that night, one with the correct past, etc.? One that...if he didn't accept your offer to take the fall.....wouldn't turn you in for a asking and write a book. One who could be trusted to take the fall correctly and not crack when he got in the cell with Bubba. So John decides that, despite being more or less in the clear, he needs a patsy and somehow feeds the secrets to Karr.

    2) That the boulder DA's office and investigators are so inept that they arrested a man before checking his alibi for the night in question, before verifying the veracity of his story, DNA, etc. They arrest him on multiple, very specific charges and reveal their hand instead of letting the State of California extradite him for the child porn charges while the DA's office finishes its investigation. All the while, they have been communicating with him for months (pretending to be Patsy Ramsey) and haven't figured out what all the bloggers figured out in less than 24 hours. I don't think anyone could be that inept and that is after admitting that the Boulder police and DA's set new standards for ineptitude previously. So the DA's office has completely blown their wad, compromised the case going forward, and made themselves a laughing stock.....all on something as innocent as a lucky guess at crime scene evidence and some delusions.

    3) That this Michael Tracey fellah is so hungry for fame and/or a new documentary/ book, that he fed some of the most privy crime scene information to this fellah that looks like he could be a good patsy. This despite not knowing where he was on the night of the murder. He too takes the chance and rolls the dice that this man contacting him acting all guilty isn't going to turn out to be a cop suspicious of Tracey or someone so mentally ill that they can follow through with the rouse to completion. Again, where do you find the patsy? How do you know, as Tracey, that the person who has been contacting you for these many years doesn't have an alibi that they fail to tell you about? Tracey gives them the information, Karr is arrested and tried and it comes out in testimony that he was in Alabama on the night of the muder. Then they delve into how he got the information about the crime scene/body and he rolls over on Tracey who gets charged. All the while, as Tracey, you are playing both sides...pretending to cooperate with the police all the while helping the patsy implicate himself.

    Pretty far fetched, don't you think?

    A) John doesn't need a patsy, he wouldn't be charged and convicted if, in fact, he did murder JBR.
    B) After all the flak the DA and Boulder police have taken, they wouldn't chance anything. If they needed to just hold him, charge him with something innoculous or let CA go get him on the outstanding warrant. Indonesia is very cooperative trying to rid its country of our pedophiles.
    C) While Tracey is sketchy, I don't think he would face obstruction or worse charges when he could make his documentaries pointing to anyone. Doing this would be unnecessary.


    Cal

  2. #2
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    It's not hard to believe that this guy is a raving kook that injected himself intot he investigation, which happens a LOT in high profile crimes. Nor is it hard to believe that after 10 years all concerned as so desperate for SOMETHING they're willing to hang their hat on ANYTHING. IMO, if this nutjob was simply living in Kansas and not Thailand they would have picked him up for questioning and figured out he was a froot loop and tossed him back for California to deal with and we'd never have known any different.

  3. #3
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    How then do you explain him knowing the very specific and horrific information about the body? Information that no one else knows?

    Cal

  4. #4
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    He has been in contact with players on the case for years. I have learned things about cases several times just in my role as Admin here on WS that have never been published in the media. I cannot tell you how many times a family member or even Detective have said to me "This has not been released so please dont publish it".
    Welcome to the World Baby Caleb!!!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by calus_3
    How then do you explain him knowing the very specific and horrific information about the body? Information that no one else knows?

    Cal
    For chrissake, I could tell you crap you would think only the killer could know about the murder after 10 years of leaks, coverage, documentaries, leaks, and more leaks. And probably do a better job of it than this knuckle knob because I lived in Colorado during 1995-1996 and have actually visited Boulder a number of times. For instance, its a ***** driving through that town if you've never been there before because the main artery is so narrow. If you don't know exactly where you're going it's real easy to get seriously lost, and the traffic sucks. And it's not hard for someone who IS a pedophile to fantasize/extrapolate on what a pedophile WOULD do because, to be frank, these guy's aren't the most original thinkers on the face of the earth. So far, all I've heard out of this guy's mouth are vaugeries and all I've seen is his eyes dart around like pinballs, which is the sign of someone actively lying and KNOWS it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
    For chrissake, I could tell you crap you would think only the killer could know about the murder after 10 years of leaks, coverage, documentaries, leaks, and more leaks. And probably do a better job of it than this knuckle knob because I lived in Colorado during 1995-1996 and have actually visited Boulder a number of times. For instance, its a ***** driving through that town if you've never been there before because the main artery is so narrow. If you don't know exactly where you're going it's real easy to get seriously lost, and the traffic sucks. And it's not hard for someone who IS a pedophile to fantasize/extrapolate on what a pedophile WOULD do because, to be frank, these guy's aren't the most original thinkers on the face of the earth. So far, all I've heard out of this guy's mouth are vaugeries and all I've seen is his eyes dart around like pinballs, which is the sign of someone actively lying and KNOWS it.
    You don't know whatever it is that peaked the investigator's curiosity. Keep in mind, if you know it....the investigators know that it was leaked. I think you are way off base.

    Cal

  7. #7
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    Mar 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by calus_3
    2) That the boulder DA's office and investigators are so inept that they arrested a man before checking his alibi for the night in question, before verifying the veracity of his story, DNA, etc. They arrest him on multiple, very specific charges and reveal their hand instead of letting the State of California extradite him for the child porn charges while the DA's office finishes its investigation. All the while, they have been communicating with him for months (pretending to be Patsy Ramsey) and haven't figured out what all the bloggers figured out in less than 24 hours. I don't think anyone could be that inept and that is after admitting that the Boulder police and DA's set new standards for ineptitude previously. So the DA's office has completely blown their wad, compromised the case going forward, and made themselves a laughing stock.....all on something as innocent as a lucky guess at crime scene evidence and some delusions.
    Cal
    These are good points. Nevertheless, it sounds as though they suddenly got spooked that he might ship out, and so decided it was best to take him in now, before they had done the DNA etc. If LE had a DNA match and could tie him to the Ramseys and Boulder on Dec 25/26 1996, would they be being as vague as they are?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parmenides
    These are good points. Nevertheless, it sounds as though they suddenly got spooked that he might ship out, and so decided it was best to take him in now, before they had done the DNA etc. If LE had a DNA match and could tie him to the Ramseys and Boulder on Dec 25/26 1996, would they be being as vague as they are?
    Most certainly. He hasn't even touched American soil yet to be indicted or arraigned.

    What if the DA went out spouting all the evidence....do you think some defense attorney wouldn't seize on that and declare he can't get a fair trial anywhere?

    This DA is playing it smart, I say.

    Cal

  9. #9
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    It would be highly unlikely that the State of California would go through the expense and man power to extradite anyone from Thailand on a misdemeaner warrent.
    Welcome to the World Baby Caleb!!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by calus_3
    How then do you explain him knowing the very specific and horrific information about the body? Information that no one else knows?

    Cal
    This juror is still out on the matter! I am open to hear whatever comes out, if something comes out. So far, the DNA and JC's whereabouts on Christmas Day '96', haven't been confirmed. Also, there is the chance of a 'good guess' hitting paydirt without real knowledge.

    I keep thinking, give the Boulder DA the benefit of doubt, and I am willing to wait and see, but my hinky meter is on the rise, so I guess time will tell.

    Truth be, he sounds like a nut, looks like a nut, might be a nut! and a


  11. #11
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    I have to agree with the consensus, calus. So far, it's only hearsay as to what he knows.

    "You don't know whatever it is that peaked the investigator's curiosity."

    Sure, we do! Mikey Tracey! beyond that is the interesting part.

    But, yeah, I'd play it close to the chest, too.

  12. #12
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    This guy has had ten years to study this case. Of course he knows a lot of things, but is there something that has never leaked about this crime, that only he would know? Was there something about the autopsy, that wasn't in the report, and he would know what it was?

    I question how he knew about the 118,000.00 bonus. Who would sit in a house, after murdering a child, and compose a 3 pg ransom note, with PR's writing pad, and her pen, plus a practice copy in the trash can?

    Who knows how much info Tracey provided this guy? Very good way to call attention to his forthcoming book.


    Not convinced - I need more proof.

  13. #13
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    I'm holding off, too.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tybee204
    He has been in contact with players on the case for years. I have learned things about cases several times just in my role as Admin here on WS that have never been published in the media. I cannot tell you how many times a family member or even Detective have said to me "This has not been released so please dont publish it".
    ok tybee-where i get dizzy is why would he be considered obsessed with this murder-almost to the point of writing a book about it and have such blatant things incorrect..why would he know one thing not know to most of us but then not know almost every detail-he has been studying the case for 10 years?
    I say this not knowing that he is credible-and the more he talks the only good thing i can see here is that the nation-the world is getting a view of the mental machinations of a predator..i think he will go along way to speeding up those laws that put them in jail for good..I dont think most of us (not me anyhow), have been close enuf to a predator as this and I think he will help make people furious about these sick minds that rob children of their innocence if not hteir lives.
    I can only say that as an adult (most days), I am scared being in the same room with him on my tv..i cant imagine how scary it must be for a kid to be held hostage by that energy..I dont mean him in particular..I mean - wowo..these men are really screwed up in their thinking about children and they should be sent up for good, even if they dont kill..they kill souls and hearts and hopes.
    The wife he had got an annullment because she feared for her life -he was 19 at the time-the marriage lasted a year. That pice of info influences me toward thinking he is much more violent than we are thinking he is.
    And its a piece that puts me back in the he done it camp. he is certainly capable of murder at 30 if he is divorced because his 14 year old wife fears for her life when he is 19-20.
    We all know that this behaviour gets worse not better..he is capable of killing if people who lived with him feared for their lives.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by calus_3
    Okay, let's play devil's advocate.

    If Karr is just some kook that didn't do it but is deriving some sadistic pleasure out of this whole thing or is a patsy, you have to believe something along the following lines (or some combination):

    1) That John Ramsey is personally guilty or is continuing to cover for a family member. John, in his infinite wisdom, decides that he needs a patsy---this despite the fact that to this day he has 10 years behind him and seasoned police/investigators on his side that would probably prevent his prosecution and would almost certainly guarantee no conviction--if he was even idicted. So after the safety of odd evidence, bungling by the police, war inside the police and DA's offices, and 10 years of road behind him, he still decides he needs to take the risk and get a patsy. Where does one find a patsy that fits 10 years after the fact? One who was in Boulder that night, one with the correct past, etc.? One that...if he didn't accept your offer to take the fall.....wouldn't turn you in for a asking and write a book. One who could be trusted to take the fall correctly and not crack when he got in the cell with Bubba. So John decides that, despite being more or less in the clear, he needs a patsy and somehow feeds the secrets to Karr.

    2) That the boulder DA's office and investigators are so inept that they arrested a man before checking his alibi for the night in question, before verifying the veracity of his story, DNA, etc. They arrest him on multiple, very specific charges and reveal their hand instead of letting the State of California extradite him for the child porn charges while the DA's office finishes its investigation. All the while, they have been communicating with him for months (pretending to be Patsy Ramsey) and haven't figured out what all the bloggers figured out in less than 24 hours. I don't think anyone could be that inept and that is after admitting that the Boulder police and DA's set new standards for ineptitude previously. So the DA's office has completely blown their wad, compromised the case going forward, and made themselves a laughing stock.....all on something as innocent as a lucky guess at crime scene evidence and some delusions.

    3) That this Michael Tracey fellah is so hungry for fame and/or a new documentary/ book, that he fed some of the most privy crime scene information to this fellah that looks like he could be a good patsy. This despite not knowing where he was on the night of the murder. He too takes the chance and rolls the dice that this man contacting him acting all guilty isn't going to turn out to be a cop suspicious of Tracey or someone so mentally ill that they can follow through with the rouse to completion. Again, where do you find the patsy? How do you know, as Tracey, that the person who has been contacting you for these many years doesn't have an alibi that they fail to tell you about? Tracey gives them the information, Karr is arrested and tried and it comes out in testimony that he was in Alabama on the night of the muder. Then they delve into how he got the information about the crime scene/body and he rolls over on Tracey who gets charged. All the while, as Tracey, you are playing both sides...pretending to cooperate with the police all the while helping the patsy implicate himself.

    Pretty far fetched, don't you think?

    A) John doesn't need a patsy, he wouldn't be charged and convicted if, in fact, he did murder JBR.
    B) After all the flak the DA and Boulder police have taken, they wouldn't chance anything. If they needed to just hold him, charge him with something innoculous or let CA go get him on the outstanding warrant. Indonesia is very cooperative trying to rid its country of our pedophiles.
    C) While Tracey is sketchy, I don't think he would face obstruction or worse charges when he could make his documentaries pointing to anyone. Doing this would be unnecessary.


    Cal
    I consider this to be well stated ..thx

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