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  1. #1
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    Investigative failure?

    Helgoth, Karr, the R's, and others who have been fully 'under the umbrella' all have something in common. They don't characterize the killing.

    From the POV of the parents, the RN was more sadistic than it was rambling or nonsensical. From the POV of JBR, the garrote and second ligature were obviously more effective than just a prop.

    Characterizing the killing produces a sadistic killer. There's no evidence that Helgoth, Karr, or the R's are sadistic. In fact, Karr seems to be at the other end of the spectrum.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    Helgoth, Karr, the R's, and others who have been fully 'under the umbrella' all have something in common. They don't characterize the killing.

    From the POV of the parents, the RN was more sadistic than it was rambling or nonsensical. From the POV of JBR, the garrote and second ligature were obviously more effective than just a prop.

    Characterizing the killing produces a sadistic killer. There's no evidence that Helgoth, Karr, or the R's are sadistic. In fact, Karr seems to be at the other end of the spectrum.
    Why do you think so?

    I don't know Karr, so I can only speculate about personality traits he may or may not have. Sexual sadism also seems to be something that is only seen by people really close to a person, others in their day-to-day dealings may not know they are dealing with a sadist/predator, especially if they are not the target of choice for that particular person
    I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for pretending to be someone I'm not.

  3. #3
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    Not sure that I would say that Karr does not have a sadistic streak.

    His wife reported that he threatened to kill his first son (born after the twins died). Recall also that he allowed his wife to languish while giving birth at home with twins, refusing to take her to the hospital. That's sadistic. That wife (Lara sp?) had/has a restraining order against Karr. He was fired for being too strong a disciplinarian in a Thai school. There is a pattern here - which is not enough to say he alone murdered JBR. But it is enough to make me say, this guy has a pretty dark side. A violent and sadistic side to him.

    Re: Helgoth (Michael), Wolf (Chris ?), Kennady, et al.
    If we mention Helgoth as a person of interest, we should also attach him to Wolf; as Helgoth had within his posessions, the cap with SBTC on it. Wolf's girlfriend outed him to police, that he had a T-shirt with SBTC on it. She believed that it was from Santa Barbara Tennis Club. Kennady and a couple of other who were "uncovered" by Ramsey's private investigative team, were the pit of humanity. One of these guys was reported to have wanted to skin a little girl...and something about bacon. Can't exactly recall quote.
    One of these guys' past offences, including perving out on a little 6 year old girl. Sadly, Boulder PD expected Ramsey to go out and find the real killer, if he wanted to exonerate himself. These leads uncovered by Ollie Gray (spelling?) languished. And the evidence that may have at one time, connected these guys - may not exist anymore. For that failing alone, BPD is as culpable as one who might have aided and abetted the actual killer.

    I agree that this guy Karr, may have actually communicated with the person or persons who participated in killing JBR. Either at the crime scene, or afterward, in some perve chat forum. The guy liked to chat via emails. Those Annie Moss posts sounded freakishly familar to the cadence of the emails exchanged by Karr and Tracey.

  4. #4
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    If a sexual sadist did that to JonBenet, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying. If that crime was committed by a sadist without it being sexual, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying.

    No offense to anyone, but a sadist would have taken from her parents house and tortured her. What we see happened was not the work of any kind of sadist - she was wiped down, redressed, and folded in a blanket! Sadists do NOT take that kind of care with a child they have murdered for revenge.

    And a kidnapper would have taken the child, even if she was dead. The RN author was aware of the Rs need to bury JB - if he really wanted revenge and a ransom, he would have taken her with him.
    Where is Trenton Duckett?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    If a sexual sadist did that to JonBenet, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying. If that crime was committed by a sadist without it being sexual, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying.

    No offense to anyone, but a sadist would have taken from her parents house and tortured her. What we see happened was not the work of any kind of sadist - she was wiped down, redressed, and folded in a blanket! Sadists do NOT take that kind of care with a child they have murdered for revenge.

    And a kidnapper would have taken the child, even if she was dead. The RN author was aware of the Rs need to bury JB - if he really wanted revenge and a ransom, he would have taken her with him.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the perp have hours and hours uninterrupted with JBR in the basement, with a garrote/second ligature restraining device?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdieBoo
    Why do you think so?

    I don't know Karr, so I can only speculate about personality traits he may or may not have. Sexual sadism also seems to be something that is only seen by people really close to a person, others in their day-to-day dealings may not know they are dealing with a sadist/predator, especially if they are not the target of choice for that particular person
    At least you seem to agree a sadistic killer was at work.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the perp have hours and hours uninterrupted with JBR in the basement, with a garrote/second ligature restraining device?
    Exactly, so why wasn't she hurt worse than she was? A sadist tortures their victims - they get off on the pain and the fear they cause. JonBenet was not tortured. She was hit on the head and then choked to finish her off. Afterwards she wiped down, redressed (!), and covered up in a nice blankie.

    No sadist would have been so kind. A sadist would have left her battered and broken and naked, if not posed. A sadist certainly wouldn't have bothered to leave that corny RN.
    Where is Trenton Duckett?

  8. #8
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    What you don't know about sadists can confuse you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    If a sexual sadist did that to JonBenet, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying. If that crime was committed by a sadist without it being sexual, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying.

    No offense to anyone, but a sadist would have taken from her parents house and tortured her. What we see happened was not the work of any kind of sadist - she was wiped down, redressed, and folded in a blanket! Sadists do NOT take that kind of care with a child they have murdered for revenge.

    And a kidnapper would have taken the child, even if she was dead. The RN author was aware of the Rs need to bury JB - if he really wanted revenge and a ransom, he would have taken her with him.
    Not necessarily. Most, if not all rapists are considered sadistic by psychiatric professionals, but they are not all the same in their level of violence. Sadism is about power, mainly the power to cause someone else pain. Violence is a part of that, but it can be psychological violence as much as physical. Pain can be caused in more subtle (to the eye) ways than you seem to acknowledge here. Just because there weren't body parts strewn about doesn't mean there was no sexual sadism involved.

    Some might have taken a child from her home, some might not have. It is simply not true that a sadist can't be sadistic in the home of his or her victim. To avoid detection by others, it would be better to be somewhere else in some cases, but transporiting an unwilling person carries other risks. Many (most?)rapists are actually sadistic in their victims' homes, so this is also not that big a clue, as far as sadism is measured.

    The wiping down & wraping of a body proves nothing regarding sadism, either. Sadists very often believe they truly love their victims, and are also gentle in their non-sadistic moments. After they have been abusive, they can feel a connection to their victims that the sadists experience as close and loving. Obviously, it is not the way the victim experiences this, except in severe cases of masochism.

    For ransom, it would make more sense to take the body. For revenge, probably not. Finding your child in such circumstances would be awful enough to qualify as revenge.

    For the record, I think the Ramsey's were involved, so sadism could have happened in the victim's and the perp's home at the same time.

    Shrinky, who's known a sadist or two

  9. #9
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    Nuisanceposter: you raise an interesting aspect of this case; that JBR appeared to be "wiped down, redressed, and covered up".

    I am wondering though, if this isn't part of the guy's (whomever that is) peculiar ritual. The washing and redressing. In a way, it is somewhat symbolic of washing away a "bad/prior act", and returning the child's innocence. And the child is again, perfect.

    On a purely speculative note, perhaps this is Karr's calling card. Karr seems to take the time to detail specifics in his resume, about bathing and dressing the baby/children, and them putting them to bed, reading a story, etc. This is, imo, some odd detail for a resume. If other pedo freaks were to read this resume, I speculate that they would contact him. I speculate that was the motive behind being so specific about bathing and dressing the baby or whatever.

  10. #10
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    Maybe the perp wiped JB down to remove any incriminating evidence. He was being practical to evade identification as opposed to a ritualistic act.

    Also, I have read and seen on FOX a brief interview with Karr's first wife. She said he asked for bizarre sexual acts. I wonder if these acts crossed over into sadism. Has anyone heard the specifics? I am curious if what he asked of her is similar to what was seen with JB. Things like choking, etc.
    Last edited by southerngirl; 08-22-2006 at 03:42 PM.


  11. #11
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    Although right now it sounds like the guy is just off his nut, if he did do it -it makes sense that he stayed in the house because he had no where else to take her.

  12. #12
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    "If a sexual sadist did that to JonBenet, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying. If that crime was committed by a sadist without it being sexual, it would have been a lot more violent and horrifying.
    Exactly, so why wasn't she hurt worse than she was? A sadist tortures their victims - they get off on the pain and the fear they cause. JonBenet was not tortured. She was hit on the head and then choked to finish her off. Afterwards she wiped down, redressed (!), and covered up in a nice blankie.

    No sadist would have been so kind. A sadist would have left her battered and broken and naked, if not posed. A sadist certainly wouldn't have bothered to leave that corny RN."

    NP is ABSOLUTELY right! The child was wrapped in a blanket with her fave nightie out of the cold. A sexual sadist would have torn her vagina to bits, and her anus. There was no anal trauma at all.

  13. #13
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    I agree that a hardcore sadist would have left the victim in much worse condition than JBR was found left in.

    That said, this crime certainly seems to have some sadistic elements - beyond the point of the obvious sadistic nature of adult-child abuse, the garrote is an S&M device. The cord loosely wrapped around her wrist suggests bondage. So perhaps the prep wasn't a hardcore sadist but did have elements of that desire in his personality.

    Karr certainly has those elements as well. While he sometimes seems effete and soft, he was fired for being too strict a teacher, he threatened to kill his son, his wife said he requested unusual sex, his own Mom tried to burn him alive as a baby....could be indicators of some S&M stuff.

    This is all pure speculation. As yet, I don't think Karr had a thing to do with JBR's murder.

  14. #14
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    "That said, this crime certainly seems to have some sadistic elements - beyond the point of the obvious sadistic nature of adult-child abuse, the garrote is an S&M device. The cord loosely wrapped around her wrist suggests bondage. So perhaps the prep wasn't a hardcore sadist but did have elements of that desire in his personality."

    Those elements were thought to be staged, southcitymom.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave
    "That said, this crime certainly seems to have some sadistic elements - beyond the point of the obvious sadistic nature of adult-child abuse, the garrote is an S&M device. The cord loosely wrapped around her wrist suggests bondage. So perhaps the prep wasn't a hardcore sadist but did have elements of that desire in his personality."

    Those elements were thought to be staged, southcitymom.
    Yes, and I agree with that. I was just saying that if there was an intruder (and that theory doesn't fly with me right now, but others buy it), aspects of Karr's personality seem to fit the elements found at the crime scene.

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