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  1. #1
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    What would you have done differently?

    If you had been in charge of this investigation, what would you have done differently?

    Please remember, I am on the fence, leaning toward intruder(s) (but not Karr)


    1. Not have allowed JR to search the house.

    2. Not have allowed ANYONE come in the house but LE/forensics until the investigation was completed.

    3. Would have had PR , JR, and BR transported directly to the police station for questioning, any evidence collection that could possibly be done on their persons.

    4. Would have collected everyone's clothing right there, before they were allowed to leave house.

    5. Investigated the 38 + (from what I have heard) sex offenders in the area.

    6. Investigated the burglaries going on in the area.

    I can't think of anything else, these are the first things that come to mind.

    I don't know who did this, but, LE sure did mess this up from the get go, IMO.

  2. #2
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    Many good points Christine.

    3. Would have had PR , JR, and BR transported directly to the police station for questioning, any evidence collection that could possibly be done.

    Initially it was a kidnapping. The R's had to be there waiting for a call.
    But I would definitely put them in one room and forbid them to move around the house.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by tumble
    Many good points Christine.

    3. Would have had PR , JR, and BR transported directly to the police station for questioning, any evidence collection that could possibly be done.

    Initially it was a kidnapping. The R's had to be there waiting for a call.
    But I would definitely put them in one room and forbid them to move around the house.
    Oh yea, your right. Well, may I change my statement to start off " As soon as JonBenets body was discovered, I would have had PR, JR, and BR transported.......

    Thanks Tumble.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    Oh yea, your right. Well, may I change my statement to start off " As soon as JonBenets body was discovered, I would have had PR, JR, and BR transported.......

    Thanks Tumble.
    That was the biggest (and really unforgivable) mistake the Boulder Police made: as soon as JB's dead body had been discovered in the parents' own home, the scene had changed abruptly from kidnapping to murder (at least it looked like murder from the staged scene), the parents should have been arrested (a murdered child in the parents' your own home is probable cause for an arrest!), questioned separately, and the parents then could have been locked into the contradictions of their own statements.
    Steve Thomas and virtually all unbiased LE experts ever asked about that issue unanimously agreed on that.

  5. #5
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    What would I have done?

    How much time you got, christine?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448
    If you had been in charge of this investigation, what would you have done differently?

    Please remember, I am on the fence, leaning toward intruder(s) (but not Karr)


    1. Not have allowed JR to search the house.

    2. Not have allowed ANYONE come in the house but LE/forensics until the investigation was completed.

    3. Would have had PR , JR, and BR transported directly to the police station for questioning, any evidence collection that could possibly be done on their persons.

    4. Would have collected everyone's clothing right there, before they were allowed to leave house.

    5. Investigated the 38 + (from what I have heard) sex offenders in the area.

    6. Investigated the burglaries going on in the area.

    I can't think of anything else, these are the first things that come to mind.

    I don't know who did this, but, LE sure did mess this up from the get go, IMO.
    The problem is that everyone believed it was a kidnapping, so the body was not found for 7 or 8 hours...by that time it had rigor mortis and livor mortis...It is easy for us to second guess what should have been done, yet if we put ourselves in their shoes I think we would have thought it was a kidnapping too.

    Having said that, even after the body was found, mistakes were made. It has been said the police were not used to murders and crime scenes and bungled it. From what I've read, it showed incompetence to leave the body in the living room for hours. Since it was already moved by the father it should have been taken to the morgue immediately.

    No neighbours should have been allowed in. The entire house was a crime scene and should have been immediately sealed off and protected.

    Boxes and bags of evidence were taken out willy nilly by family, friends and police. Nothing should have been touched except by police and everything marked and identified. There were crime scene photos of every room apparently, but should have been more.

    The house was allowed to be stripped too soon, from what I recall. For example, we now have a third party giving an account of Karr "hiding under the bed in the guest room." There is no way to check for his hairs or fibres now in that location. But if there is a hair and fibre analysis for that location and every location in the house, it can be checked now. Was that done? If not, it should have been done, with samples of carpet and other materials kept.

    I think the bungling in retrospect was due to everyone having their own agenda and fighting the common good which was to preserve evidence. It did not help the case at all for Arndt to say she knew Ramsey did it because of the cold look in his eyes. Things like that have nothing to do with detective work. They are not crime evidence.

    You are right about investigating the sex offenders in the area. I have heard that it wasn't done and find it hard to believe. I thought a house to house search and investigation was done on all neighbours, as well as an investigation of all people who had been in the house, from a list the Ramseys gave police.

    I understand how an intruder could fall through the cracks of the investigation, especially if he fled Boulder immediately and was never a resident there and used care in covering his tracks. But the investigations had to be done to rule out neighbours and friends. How thorough were they? If Karr's brother ever worked for the Ramseys in house renovation, which seems likely given that Karr's father was in the construction business and taught his sons from birth (based on current news accounts), his name should have come up. If an investigation of Karr had taken place even as a part time handyman, though, would they have gone as far as investigating his brother? Where would they stop with their questioning? This is the potential problem if the killer was related to or knew someone who was a very minor player in the Ramsey's world. In hindsight the connection seems solid, but to investigators and the Ramseys it might not even be noticed. Therefore the only thing that could reasonably be expected is not to destroy the crime scene, collect all evidence and preserve it. Hopefully they have enough that can determine whether Karr was or was not in that house.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    That was the biggest (and really unforgivable) mistake the Boulder Police made: as soon as JB's dead body had been discovered in the parents' own home, the scene had changed abruptly from kidnapping to murder (at least it looked like murder from the staged scene), the parents should have been arrested (a murdered child in the parents' your own home is probable cause for an arrest!), questioned separately, and the parents then could have been locked into the contradictions of their own statements.
    Steve Thomas and virtually all unbiased LE experts ever asked about that issue unanimously agreed on that.
    I think that Linda Arndt (?) was unjustifiably crucified for the first few hours of this case, although, after reading her deposition in her case against Boulder, I don't come to the same conclusions that she did.

    I get tired of this old defense strategy of "contamination" of the crime scene and the expectation of the "pristine" in this area, which is totally unrealistic. If Lin Wood (and John Ramsey) are running around shooting their mouths off about this being a DNA case - you can bet that the opposite is true. This, by the way has always been proven to be a good rule of thumb - whatever that team says IS, I have found in the past to be precisely what it IS NOT. They call it a DNA case because they know that one would expect their own DNA to be all over that house and thereofore it would be hard to convict THEM on DNA.

    When Arndt and others showed up at that house, it was on the basis of the belief that the Ramseys were victims of a kidnapping, so it would not have entered most people's minds, I think, to immediately treat them as suspects. (AFTER the Ramsey case, given their precedent, cops probably would immediately conceive of that possibility.) I do think that all friends and victims' advocates (who called these victim advocate people in anyway?) ought to have been sent home promptly. Comfort should have waited at least until the presumed kidnapper's call. I also think that in such a case it is normal to request that the parents search the house because only they can alert the police to changes in the environment - objects taken or moved etc. In retrospect one wonders why Patsy didn't get off the couch and drama and ALSO go searching for clues, changes, missing clothing etc.

    So now, JR comes up the stairs with the body. At THAT point everything changes BUT he has already moved the body so damaged the crime scene, so it matters little that Arndt places the body somewhere because what is she supposed to do? Tell him to freeze on the spot indefinitely? I mean, while it has been said that the first officers may have already entertained suspicions about the family because of the weird ransom note, the weirdness of that note only became totally obvious when the body was found in the house. So, I think that the police team was criticized unjustly up to that point.

    I believe that social prejudice probably played a role here. The Ramsey's obvious wealth could well have intimidated the LE people into not demanding certain things like the departure of all non-family members, but those of you who have heard the Ramseys speak must admit that they are not exactly push-overs for complying to authorities, let alone mere requests. And let's not forget that friends almost as quickly began suggesting legal representation, which JR was no doubt only to eager to quickly get since the last thing he would have wanted would have been for ANY family member to bring down the scandal which subsequently ruined his then-successful career.

    Subsequent to that, several LE people have complained about the cozy relationship the higher-ups established with the Ramseys and their expensive and no doubt locally-influential legal team, giving them information, making concessions, making few or no reasonable requests. Let's face it - the higher-ups of this case were scared to death of the Ramseys and their attorneys long arms and THAT was what compromised this investigation.

    You know what is a total laugh? They had SO many reasons to arrest the Ramseys at the time and yet did not for fear of not having enough of a case. And NOW, when they have virtually NOTHING on this Karr guy, an arrest is made. What can I say? Money matters and IMO it hasn't ceased mattering in this case. So who "fumbled" this case? Not the lower investigative branches but the higher-ups with connections with the influential R lawyers and/fear of Ramsey & their lawyers' wrath.

    The "investigative bungling" did not happen THEN. It is happening NOW.

    JMO

  8. #8
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    Thanks Hyatt, excellent post. Very, very interesting points, IMO



    ...teeter/totter, teeter/totter.

  9. #9
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    The police need probable cause to arrest. Everyone agrees they had that. The DA messed it up.

  10. #10
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    7. I would have examined the outside of the house and documenting the state of the ground looking for footprints in the snow first thing at the kidnap scene.

    Hindsight is a great tool.


  11. #11
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    I think the cops made serious

    mistakes, but there is no such thing as a perfect investigation. Everyone involved made mistakes. The FBI could have claimed jurisdiction and taken over the case from the minute they hit the door. The cops could have followed procedures by the book, and still not have resolved this case. The crux of the matter is that those law enforcement officials involved thought they were dealing with a wealthy, connected family (which they were) and did what most LEOs do in that situation - walk on eggs. Another fact to consider is that initially they thought their suspect was the housekeeper/husband. They were on that family within hours. Handwriting samples, surveillance, taking statements from them, checking their alibis. This nonsense that the cops zeroed in on the Ramseys that morning and never let go is baloney. It wasn't until a few days later, when the Ramseys had refused to talk to the police that the "worm really turned" to coin a phrase. That's when it really turned sour.

  12. #12
    I would not leak information.
    Amy

  13. #13
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    I being the JR would have never carried JBR upstairs. I would have just told the police I know where she is.
    TYBEE U WILL ALWAYS BE MISSED AND LOVED.


    http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=61288

  14. #14
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    Hindsight is certainly 20/20 isn't it!!!

    I am certain that the police and everyone concerned would have done many things differently if they had known what they know today.

  15. #15
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    Sealed off the house as a crime scene. A kidnapping (at the very least) had occurred--seemingly--so the house should have been sealed off and the family moved out.

    Nobody else in the house but crime technicians and detectives.

    That would have eliminated all the cross-contamination arguments.

    Each member of the family should have been questioned separately.

    If you take your child to the emergency room in Colorado with any kind of odd injury, you will be separated from your spouse and questioned (happened to friends of mine.) Same for Texas--at least for me--not even an odd injury, just a fall from a treehouse fort. We were separated and questioned. Even the child was questioned, in each case.

    Those are my two big "hindsight's twenty-twenty" thoughts.

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