The scream - Patsy's flashbacks

This is from Patsy's interview with Tom Haney, Trip de Muth

Page 329

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this
6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in
7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress
8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what
9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and
11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include
13 anything like nightmares?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.
15 TOM HANEY: About?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of
17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our
18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet
19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,
20 searching, searching, searching trying to find
21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.


I thought it interesting that Patsy stated here that she had flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream, because in other interviews she claimed to have slept right through the night and didn't hear anything.

Now IMO this has to be a case where Patsy has to have been caught out lying one way or the other. If she was telling the truth here and she did have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream, then she was lying when she told BPD that she slept right through the night without hearing anything. The fact is, that when people have flashbacks they have them about something that they really did experience.

IMO she was telling the truth when she said she had flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream because I think she had fallen asleep in the lounge room while waiting for the photographer Charles Kuralt who Santa had told her was coming to take some photos of JonBenet. What in fact had happened IMO, was that about three other pedophiles arrived instead and were abusing JonBenet in the basement and when one of them shoved a broken paintbrush handle up her vagina she let out the most horrific scream, that not only Melody Stanton heard, but Patsy did as well.

I think it's entirely possible that Patsy misused the word "flashback".

We all have nightmares where truth and fantasy merge together. I lost a dear friend many years ago and was actually with him when he died. For years I dreamt that he was alive - but dying and often the circumstances of his death were different from what had actually happened.

In her mind, Patsy may have struggled with images of what had happened to Jonbenet (true or imagined depending on what you believe) and when these came into her head, she maight have referred to them as "flashbacks" - i.e. thoughts which flashed back to the time of the murder.

I agree with Jayelles.
I can easily understand how Patsy would be having terrible pictures of what happened to JonBenet running through her mind. It would drive any mother insane! I also think Patsy had to use medication after and that also could contribute.
Years ago I had something happen to me, not as bad as what "could" have happened thank gawd or I would NOT be here today typing this. Long story short, after it sunk in how close I came to being killed, I actually saw in my mind how the end would have happened, it wasn't a dream I was fully awake and aware, yet I saw the image, it was terrible. My point is, this did not happen yet I saw it. In the same way it's very understandable that Patsy would hear JonBenet screaming even though on that night it did not wake her up.

OB

aussiesheila said:

This is from Patsy's interview with Tom Haney, Trip de Muth


IMO she was telling the truth when she said she had flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream because I think she had fallen asleep in the lounge room while waiting for the photographer Charles Kuralt who Santa had told her was coming to take some photos of JonBenet. What in fact had happened IMO, was that about three other pedophiles arrived instead and were abusing JonBenet in the basement and when one of them shoved a broken paintbrush handle up her vagina she let out the most horrific scream, that not only Melody Stanton heard, but Patsy did as well.

Click to expand...

So she hears the scream and does nothing about it? She goes back to sleep and finds the ransom note hours later? Or, she hears the scream and finds a peadophile ring has killed JBR so she assists in staging a coverup to protect them? Maybe I'm missing something, but this isn't making sense to me.

Here is more discussion


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42341&highlight=scream

Hello WS

The definitions of "nightmare" and "flashback" are two different things.

Wikipedia
A nightmare is a dream that causes strong emotional responses from the sleeper, typically fear/horror. The dream may contain situation(s) of danger, discomfort, or psychological or physical distress. Sufferers are usually woken in a state of distress, and might be unable to go back to sleep for a prolonged period.

Wikipedia
A flashback is a psychological phenomenon in which an individual has a sudden, usually powerful, re-experiencing of a past experience or elements of a past experience.

A bit of overkill as this common knowledge and I would include Patsy in that, then adding in Patsy's education and talent for the written word(it was literally her talent in her pageants) it would be hard to believe she did not know the difference between the two.

Tom asks about nightmares. Patsy says she "had those" but when asked, "what about?" she answers with her description of a "flashback." She clarifies that she is talking about a flashback. Patsy is talking about flashbacks and not nightmares.

Next she tells Tom what she "sees" and "hears" in the flashbacks.

One: "I have flashbacks of seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our living room." Two: "and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream." We know that in real life Patsy did see her daughter lying down on the floor in their living room, so that would be a flashback to something that really happened-so one can see Patsy defines "flashback" as the recalling of an traumatic witnessed or experienced event. Which is how the word is used. In the same sentence Patsy goes on to tell of another flashback she has/had and that is of hearing JonBenet scream. Patsy hearing her daughter scream was a flashback to a real event, when Patsy heard JB scream. She was telling the truth that she heard JB scream, when asked about her PTSD symptoms Patsy launched into what she was most likely truly experiencing forgetting that she had to lie about that. Patsy catches herself, realizes and switches to talking about her nightmares.

In the next sentence Patsy switches and begins to describe her nightmares: "I have nightmares where I am you know, I am searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this." Now that she is recalling her nightmare as compared to her flashback, Patsy is no longer "seeing" she is no longer "hearing" in the observer/passive point of view. In her description of the nightmare she is active, she "is searching and trying to find."

When speaking of flashing back to seeing JB on the floor and hearing JonBenet scream, Patsy is not repetitive nor does she stutter or stumble. When she switches to describe her nightmare the sentence contains a "you know" and she says she is "searching(three times)for somebody" then again "trying to find somebody" and finally, "and trying to find who did this." Patsy's nightmare is about searching and trying to find somebody and trying to find who did this, while her flashback was about seeing JB's body and hearing her scream.

TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what symptoms you experience as a result of that.
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include anything like nightmares?
PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.
TOM HANEY: About?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know, searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this.

Had Patsy used the word "flashback" through out her entire response we could think that she was using the word "flashback" all the while meaning "nightmare." But if that were so, she would not have made a switch to begin to describe her nightmare as opposed to her flashback(s). Patsy was describing two of the symptoms she had experienced due to her diagnosed PTSD: flashbacks and nightmares. Patsy can not have a flashback of something of which she was unaware or did not experience. According to her own statement, Patsy did hear JonBenet scream.

Does this mean Patsy killed JonBenet? Not necessarily. But why else would Patsy lie and say elsewhere, she did not hear the scream?

...JS...(just Sleuthing)

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of
17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our
18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet
19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,
20 searching, searching, searching trying to find
21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.


Not only did Patsy say she had flashbacks of hearing JB scream (which would indicate SHE REALLY HEARD IT),she even goes on to say she had nightmares as well,and she even differentiates between the two!

Hi Chiquita71.

Your post is fascinating.
There's so much revealed, seen in PR's dialogue. The triple talk .....

"I have nightmares where I am, you know, searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this."


..... the IMO art of evasion, her own confusions, and often, the perfect response, ie when PR most succinctly ends the enquiry about the 'brown work gloves', ..... ski gloves.

PR didn't cower during questioning.

Tadpole12 said:

Hi Chiquita71.

Your post is fascinating.
There's so much revealed, seen in PR's dialogue. The triple talk .....

"I have nightmares where I am, you know, searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this."


..... the IMO art of evasion, her own confusions, and often, the perfect response, ie when PR most succinctly ends the enquiry about the 'brown work gloves', ..... ski gloves.

PR didn't cower during questioning.

Click to expand...

She cowers one time: when Haney asks her if she was abused as a child. Makes me wonder if she had nightmares or flashbacks about that. Just spitballing.

SuperDave said:

She cowers one time: when Haney asks her if she was abused as a child. Makes me wonder if she had nightmares or flashbacks about that. Just spitballing.

Click to expand...

Yes,this is possible she reliving her experience....Or just wondering also if she knew or expected JonBenet being sexually abused...Cause she asked Armstead if he knew about the sexual abuse when asked in an interview so maybe it all came into light to her...

Ravyn said:

Yes,this is possible she reliving her experience....Or just wondering also if she knew or expected JonBenet being sexually abused...Cause she asked Armstead if he knew about the sexual abuse when asked in an interview so maybe it all came into light to her...

Click to expand...

Respectfully Quoted Ravyn

What I have read was, where Patsy is being told of the sexual abuse of JB, and Patsy is asked if she is surprised, or knows about it and she denies the idea. IIRC? Not that she asked about it?


TIA.

...JS...(Just Sleuthing)

Chiquita71 said:

Respectfully Quoted Ravyn

What I have read was, where Patsy is being told of the sexual abuse of JB, and Patsy is asked if she is surprised, or knows about it and she denies the idea. IIRC? Not that she asked about it?


TIA.

...JS...(Just Sleuthing)

Click to expand...

It's a little of both, Chiquita. When Haney first brings it up, she claims to be shocked (she sure didn't ACT shocked--a king cobra is less cold-blooded), then gets frustrated. THEN, she turns to Armistead-her own private investigator-and asks if he knows about this, but that was most likely for reassurance rather than to find out if he knew anything real, since the PIs were hired to keep her and JR out of prison by muddying up the water.

For my money, that whole exchange is VERY revealing.

UNlike most parents, when told their murdered little girl was sexually molested, Patsy gets defensive. She says, quite defiantly, "You tell me where it says that!"

Innocent parents would be horrified, not shocked. And they would be even more determined in helping LE solve the crime. They would NOT evade talking to police for months and months. They would not wait over a year to turn over clothing worn that night. They waited 5 years to turn over the rest of the panty set.
Put Patsy's defiant attitude with her mother Nedra's odd comment about JB being "only a little bit molested" and that spells something rotten in Boulder to me. in Atlanta, too.

Hello WS

RE: the scream. Let's say, there was a scream.

The scream was while she was still alive. The scream happened before she lost consciousness. If this was a case of bed wetting rage, what would make JB scream like she did? Patsy gets mad and either hits, or grabs and pushes(but it has to be something quick and unintentional): when does JB scream?


Well, something about the scream is running around in my brain and I am looking forward to any and all responses. TIA.

...JS...

I don't know what you know about the scream, so here's what I know...
The neighbor across the street, Melanie Stanton, originally told police she heard a blood-curdling child's scream that woke her up around midnight. She sleeps with a window open. Her husband did not wake up, so she woke him, and he claimed to hear a sound like metal scraping concrete a little later. The wineceller had a concrete floor, and there were paint cans in there, possibly moved to make room for JB's body.
For unknown reasons, (possible the Rs defense attorneys or "friends" got to her) she later recanted and said she maybe only heard "negative energy from JB" . They then moved out of Boulder. Later, she admitted that she did actually hear an actual scream.
Police did tests in the Rs basement and found that there was a vent pipe that went outside, and when standing by the Stanton's house it was determined that a scream could indeed be heard there. It could also be heard in the Rs bedroom on the top floor, whether a window was open or not. So there was no way that a neighbor could hear a scream that the parents did not hear. That would have brought them running.
The flip-flop Ms. Stanton did about the scream would do a politician proud. Yes, no, then yes again. Finally admitting yes- she heard it.

Hello WS

Patsy was diagnosed with PTSD by Dr. Brown in Atlanta.

PTSD
Most people affected by PTSD have an extremely vivid picture of the traumatic event, so much so that they often experience vivid and terrifying flashbacks after-wards.

PTSD is an anxiety disorder that often develops as a result of witnessing or experiencing a severely traumatic event. PTSD is generally considered to be
the reaction of a "normal" person to an extremely "abnormal" event.

The symptoms of PTSD are generally divided into three subcategories:
Re-experience(flashback, nightmares)
Avoidance(feeling detached or emotionally numb)
Increased arousal(lack of concentration, sleeping difficulties)

PTSD can occur directly after the event or after a period of time. Some research has indicated PTSD can be triggered by noises, images or smells which remind the individual of the traumatic event.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BlHgzUBOzbEC&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=%22most+people+affected+by+PTSD+have+an+extremely+vivid+picutre...%22&source=bl&ots=TSkcW6mG29&sig=z7BEsPuN19P1sIQfHqg8aFl96X8&hl=en&ei=CoOzS8u6FYL88Abzh_HOAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CBkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder for Dummies

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd[/ame]


TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what symptoms you experience as a result of that.
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include anything like nightmares?
PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.
TOM HANEY: About?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our living room and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know, searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this.

Patsy was diagnosed with PSTD by Dr. Brown. Patsy is being asked to give which symptoms she has experienced as a result of that diagnosis.(see Symptoms of PTSD: above) Patsy describes having flashbacks as one of her symptoms then goes on to describe two of those flashbacks.

Patsy was re-experiencing, flashing back to: seeing her daughter lying on the floor and hearing her daughter scream.

We know Patsy did experience the traumatic event of seeing her daughter "lying down on the floor in our living room" and by Patsy's own words she is telling us, "hearing JonBenet scream" is another traumatic event she experienced. In describing her symptoms to her doctor, by definition, Patsy had to have been speaking of actual events experienced to have received a diagnosis of PTSD.

:twocents:
Patsy heard JonBenet scream.

...JS...(just sleuthing)

PTSD, more like Patsy heard Jonbenet scream, and Patsy saw Jonbenet lying on the basement floor after she hit her in the head, and Patsy couldn't shut off those memories because they were torturing her.

I have had first hand experience with PTSD, and those flashbacks will practically drive you insane. I was able to alter my PTSD by adding a postive thought to the Negative flashback snapshots of the traumatic event. In the beginning, I don't think I'd be far off if I said I was having 100 flashbacks a day. They are totally disruptive and intrusive.

Another thing, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think you can take two separate events, a scream, and seeing Jonbenet's body lying in the living room at a later time and combine the two to form one PTSD event.
I believe the event would have to be the scenario I listed at the top of my post. This would have created one cohesive whole event.