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The Killing Season - Websleuths

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  1. #1
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    Questions arising from the Karr-Tracey e-mails & accompanying circus

    #1: Karr was pleading, begging to establish contact with the Ramseys. He became upset when he learned John Ramsey not only said "No" but also was blocking contact between Patsy and Karr - to "protect Patsy" according to Tracey. Finally he said he would think about it. Now, as I was reading that, I kept wondering why Ramsey would not be eager to contact someone who both his friends (Tracey and Lou Smit , the investigator he quoted left and right) suspected to be the intruder.This, after going on TV and pleading with people to contact them with all possible clues.

    I know Patsy was sick and it appears that he eventually worked with LE to phone Karr and have the call traced BUT why didn't he jump at the chance right away of following up on lead his team mates trusted? Where was his curiosity and commitment to bringing about justice, according to his own intruder theory. I find that rather strange. What do you think?

    JMO

  2. #2
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    #2. Was interested in reading that Lou Smit was in with Tracey on this. Also sounds like Tracey, Smit, the DA's office and Ramsey have a cozy little relationship going here. Is this normal that any leads people consider promissing should be being sent to a prime suspect? And does Smit's reputation now go down the tubes with those of Tracey and Lacy?

    JMO

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyatt
    #1: Karr was pleading, begging to establish contact with the Ramseys. He became upset when he learned John Ramsey not only said "No" but also was blocking contact between Patsy and Karr - to "protect Patsy" according to Tracey. Finally he said he would think about it. Now, as I was reading that, I kept wondering why Ramsey would not be eager to contact someone who both his friends (Tracey and Lou Smit , the investigator he quoted left and right) suspected to be the intruder.This, after going on TV and pleading with people to contact them with all possible clues.

    I know Patsy was sick and it appears that he eventually worked with LE to phone Karr and have the call traced BUT why didn't he jump at the chance right away of following up on lead his team mates trusted? Where was his curiosity and commitment to bringing about justice, according to his own intruder theory. I find that rather strange. What do you think?

    JMO
    On one side of the fence you could say John didn't want Patsy to be in contact with Karr because it might upset her (being ill and all). One wonders though why John wouldn't right off the bat try to pursue the lead in another form, if his concern for her welfare was so overwhelming.

    On the other side of the fence...maybe John wanted the mystery to stay a mystery, and finally gave in to avoid the appearance of deliberate disinterest.

  4. #4
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    #3. Why is the public now angry with Karr for having sought the limelight when, in fact, he resists giving information in the e-mails that would identify him, going so far as to say that when Tracey asked for a picture of him, he was behaving like a police informant and then ending the letter there?

  5. #5
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    Hyatt, I'll try to answer all your questions before I call it a night...

    1) John knew Karr wasn't the killer, but even if he was would you as a "loving father" want to know the graphic details of your daughter's sexual assault???

    2) Lou Smit was unprofessional from the start. He prayed with the Ramsey's and shortly after concluded they couldn't have done it. What LE do you know that prays with their suspects???

    3) Karr clearly wanted to confess to Tracey that he murdered JB. That was evident in his e-mails. He planned to write a book about it, although it seems he thought he'd still remain anonymous following the publishing-partly because of his sex change. Yet he revels in the attention Tracey pays him by e-mail and frequently gets mad when Tracey doesn't reply right away. What he really seems to enjoy is his fantasy of being JB's lover rather than her murderer. His methods of seduction are right up there with Michael Jackson, classic pedo who thinks that young child want to be touched sexually.
    This is the year to locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin NamUs MP#876 and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff NamUs MP#6410 and bring them home to their families!

    Parents watch your children. Free-range parenting leads to more child victims.

    Cruelty to humans begins with cruelty to animals.

    I believe in closure, not forgiveness. I'm also unapologetically judgemental.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie


  6. #6
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    anyone know answers to these?

    Can dna from saliva or semen be washed off a body or not?


    Were JBR's size 6 panties ever found? Karr said he took them. Or does Patsy definitely remember putting the size 12 ones on JBR?


    Is it at all possible that the dna on the size 12 panties could have been from another source, someone at the factory that made them, anything at all? If the killer took her original panties and redressed her with new ones from the drawer, why would his saliva necessarily be on them if he washed her body prior to redressing her?

    If Karr wants to be proven guilty despite the no-match dna, all he has to do is lead authorities to the Gothic Coffin he buried, containing the panties, the lock of hair he cut, and the missing paintbrush piece (according to him). If he doesn't do this, then he is innocent, and made up the story; OR he decided he will go with the lucky break of the dna not matching, and go with the story that he didn't do it; thus abandoning his great love story of himself and his little princess love. Which will he do? Or will he keep a lawyer who will tell him to shut up forever?

    I think we want answers here. Either he lied or he didn't. No one will interrogate him now so we'll never, never know unless he brings out his souvenirs.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyatt
    I know Patsy was sick and it appears that he eventually worked with LE to phone Karr and have the call traced BUT why didn't he jump at the chance right away of following up on lead his team mates trusted? Where was his curiosity and commitment to bringing about justice, according to his own intruder theory. I find that rather strange. What do you think?

    JMO
    I don't know what kind of treatment PR was undergoing at the end but if she was in the last stages of cancer then she was probably in no condition to cooperate. I can't speak for everyone but those that i've known who died with cancer were "doped" with morphine and hitting "the button" pretty often in those last few months.

  8. #8
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    Well, I see that the e-mails were removed as I figured they would be and I was not able to finish reading them.

    However, I found a number of things interesting aside from the fact that John Ramsey really resisted Karr's request to speak to him.

    The link between the case and John's "Mommy Dearest" who attempted to kill him is rather interesting. As others have said, I think that he entertained the thought that Patsy had been responsible, in spite of his other meanderings.

    Karr also says that Tracey has changed in the communications and I couldn't but help wondering if Tracey adopted a different discourse once he began to pass on the emails to LE. If so, how had he been talking to Karr prior to that, I wonder. And why would he have changed?

    According to Karr, Tracey stopped responding to anything "deep" and this seems to be linked with his more intimate details of his relationships with girls. Karr keeps trying to get Tracey to respond to those "deep" things. At one point, I started thinking: who's chasing whom, here?

    He says: "You stopped responding to my mails as you should have right after you sent a letter from me to John Ramsey."

    He mentions that he is not young anymore and that it hurts him to be getting older. I couldn't help but think of Patsy, here.

    He apparently knows about technology and could tell that Tracey was using an Apple. Is that easy to do?

    Can anyone else who read the whole thing add anything else for those of us who didn't manage to get to the end?

    JMO

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyatt
    Well, I see that the e-mails were removed as I figured they would be and I was not able to finish reading them.

    However, I found a number of things interesting aside from the fact that John Ramsey really resisted Karr's request to speak to him.

    The link between the case and John's "Mommy Dearest" who attempted to kill him is rather interesting. As others have said, I think that he entertained the thought that Patsy had been responsible, in spite of his other meanderings.

    Karr also says that Tracey has changed in the communications and I couldn't but help wondering if Tracey adopted a different discourse once he began to pass on the emails to LE. If so, how had he been talking to Karr prior to that, I wonder. And why would he have changed?

    According to Karr, Tracey stopped responding to anything "deep" and this seems to be linked with his more intimate details of his relationships with girls. Karr keeps trying to get Tracey to respond to those "deep" things. At one point, I started thinking: who's chasing whom, here?

    He says: "You stopped responding to my mails as you should have right after you sent a letter from me to John Ramsey."

    He mentions that he is not young anymore and that it hurts him to be getting older. I couldn't help but think of Patsy, here.

    He apparently knows about technology and could tell that Tracey was using an Apple. Is that easy to do?

    Can anyone else who read the whole thing add anything else for those of us who didn't manage to get to the end?

    JMO
    I read the whole thing and have listened to several of the phone calls. I have to say the phone calls are more important. Some of them are horrific though. However for someone who wants the answers to all the questions we had about Karr, or wants to see what makes him tick, it's all there. Well almost all. At times he says "I'm not going to ever say that" and gets defensive. It's those times that I think it's because he didn't do it and doesn't have a good explanation for certain things. Yet for other things he goes on in detail. He plays cat and mouse about various clues in the house like the note and why he did this or that. Michael Tracey asks him and sometimes he answers. Other times he argues that it's not important and people are lucky he's giving them 200 pages of details. Other times he tells Michael more details than anyone ever wanted to know.

    I can write some of the things I recall off hand. There's so much. If you have questions just ask and it will jog my memory.

    In the calls you get more of a sense of how intense Karr is. He talks on and on, pretty much gossipy and complaining, very talkative; at times they are talking at the same time as neither one wants to shut up. At times Tracey is amazingly stupid and dull in his comments or replies, interrupting even though the point of the calls is to catch a killer. He is supposed to be leading Karr on... but sometimes he upsets him by not giving long enough replies. The phone calls were to talk about the emails, and also so Karr could tell the story "in his own voice" so he could tell John Ramsey he heard the story from the killer's own voice and not just written down.

    At one odd point, Tracey says he has a headache, and also his computer crashed. This is probably a lie, overkill, he just doesn't want to write an email because he's so sick of Karr...in some of the emails to the police who he is working with as an informant, he tells them how sickened he is...also he lies about a date for a weekend, things like that, to avoid Karr, and Karr always believes him. It's incredible that Karr could really believe this sleazy character at all. Another reason I now think Karr is insane. Tracey is so transparently a police informer...yet Karr is so desperate to talk to him.

    The main theme throughout the emails and calls is that Karr is eager to have Michael give his responses to the chapters of the book Karr is writing. It's so hard for him and he spends hours revising and editing so he can present his book to the world, through Tracey. However, we are not given the book ...the DA only released the emails and phone calls. They're gone from the site now after 2 days but I saved them all to my hard drive, knowing that would probably happen. No one could possibly have gotten through all of them in two days. I've read/listened so much with barely a break and still didn't finish. And don't want to...it gets too horrible....last night I swore I won't listen to the rest of the calls. But I did a bit today, and it wasn't as bad. The accounts of the murder are beyond horrible, nothing will prepare you for how upsetting they are whether true or not. The way he gets so upset describing it all too. Knowing he is a psycho and this is him confessing. It is draining to hear but once you do, you'll never need to ask another question about him again.

    In the more normal chats, as I was about to say, when Michael said his computer was broken, Karr chides him for owning a Mac, and also chides him for downloading pornography, because that ruins any computer. And he says all this in a British accent. He's very mocking, and Michael laughs and laughs. There are very few light moments on the tapes but this is one of them. The rest is just super serious, tragic, desperate or sick. Oh, also Michael asks him to do his voice impersonation of that guy on Biography..I forget his name. He says he won't but he talks about how weird it must be to be married to that guy and have him come home and talk like that. Anyway we hear one of Karr's voices, a British accent. remember in the 1984 home video he does a weird voice and in the other informer tapes he says he was playing with JBR doing his funny voices. So it seems that was one of his talents - impersonations.

    During the confession, which takes about 4 phone calls, it's very hard to bear, and Michael has to just listen and pretend not to judge Karr, but just act like he's interested in it. His comment is that it was extraordinary to hear that; he says it will sell books if Karr adds more details...he keeps asking leading questions like what did you do next. I mean I don't know what I'd say if I was the informer, but Karr was very disappointed at times by Michael's bland responses. Anyway..

    Karr tells this incredible lie, (well, unless you can find me some proof right now) that his family was wealthy and owned 5 to 6 mansions that he could choose from; that he grew up in Tara (he explains what Tara was in case Michael doesn't know); his grandmother taught him to be a Southern gentleman with the finest manners and that is how he learned to charm little girls.

    He hates adults, and he swears a lot about how much he hates them, especially fathers who kept him from their daughters. He likes mothers, and claims most every mother allowed him or approved of him molesting their daughters. But he's not attracted to women, just little girls, so he has to turn down women who go after him. But most mothers totally trusted him with their kids as they were charmed by him. He seemed to do a lot of child care in Europe. But he talks a lot about a girl he knew, age 7, in the US the year after JBR was killed. She was apparently the same age, born in 1990 (he says).He lived in a basement with her. So this indicates he and his wife were not so happily married in 1997. We were told they divorced in 2001 after the porn charges. The fact that he seemed to be a boarder living in the basement of a house, in 1997, is a clue that he could have been separated in 1996 too and his family is just protecting him.

    He talks about his dad a lot, but you've got to just listen. I can't do a transcript, it would be as long as an encyclopedia, and to get the full impact of the way he talks you have to hear it. But he had a nice childhood, after he left his mother who was very dark, and after his grandmother raised him. He had a happy life, but then it all crashed and he lost everything in 2001 when he was arrested and had to leave the country. He compares himself to a man on the run, to the Bourne Identity and Catch Me If You Can (2 movies he says are like his life). He talks about how he is nothing, has no life, and all he wants is to make Daxis known (this is his name for himself) and have his book published anonymously (with Michael's help), and make enough money to be able to pay for JBR's funeral and buy a nice house for John Ramsey. And he wants to talk to John and have John read his manuscript or part of it. He talks a lot about how much he wanted to talk to Patsy before she died and apologize to her and everyone prevented him. When MIchael calls with the news that Patsy died, Karr breaks down and cries. He also cries and sobs at times while talking about the murder (or in his mind the accident).

    He mentions a time when the police suspected him of molesting or killing a 12 year old and he was laughing inside because 12 is too old for him; his favourite age is 6. He details how he gets little girls to love him. He claims he never touched anyone without asking their permission. He quotes everything he and JBR said on the final night, but you know, since he wasn't there, and the dna proves it, this is all made up and all wishful thinking on his part; he claims she said she loved him. It's pretty clear these things happened with other girls. Not the killing but the method of molesting. I won't go into the details of that stuff, but he does claim he strung up a rope above the actual window he came in, that was the one with the grate, with the suitcase under it in the crime scene photo. He says the suitcase was his stepladder to attach the rope, which he used in his attack, he suspended her that way and she was up that way when she died and when he smashed her head with his flashlight.

    He talks of being so poor between jobs, always being fired for being inappropriate with children, that he sometimes had to eat from people's tables in restaurants when they left food behind.

    He talks of how his family loves him and would always stand up for him, even if he was imprisoned; they'd lie for him and do anything for him. (as we see, he was right, they did defend him in the press).

    Yet he doesn't seem all that close to anyone but his grandmother, though we don't hear anything about her. We hear that his mother was very dark, we don't get to read his account of her in his life up to age 5 but we know from other accounts that is when she tried to kill him, and molested him.

    He says he was a golden boy and had to be perfect, and was spoiled.

    He repeats himself a lot. Sometimes he repeats a sentence three times in a row. He's very dramatic. It's fascinating because he has such a huge ego at the same time feeling like he's become nothing and the world hates him and will imprison him. He knew he could remain in hiding forever and he said he is good at disappearing (yet it's odd, in my opinion, that he kept using his real name for all those teaching jobs in foreign countries). But being on the run makes him lonely.

    An example of an innocuous chat is when they talk about middle names and how Tracey doesn't have one and working class people in England don't have them... and then they chat about Prince Andrew. Karr imitates a British interviewer's accent asking Prince Andrew "Isn't it boring...".
    He says he liked everything about Princess Diana, and lists all the reason why. Then they talk about her a while. When he lived in Paris he left notes to Diana in the place where she died. One day a camera man filmed him and got a closeup of his letter.
    Then he talks about teaching people drama, and teaching someone to talk like Katharine Hepburn. He can do any voice known to man, he says. He says it's like music, voices are musical, since he was a child he could speak with a British accent perfectly. He said his mom was British, then he says she wasn't, but someone in his family was.
    (I know for a fact his mother's maiden name is British - Adcock, so this could be true).
    He says imitating Katharine Hepburn is like a car starting up on a cold morning.
    This chat with Michael is totally not about crime at all. It's as if he was really just a teacher talking about his interests.

    He says he can never teach teens because he can't be cool or mean enough. He can only teach little children. Then he goes on about a little 5 year old girl he's attracted to...

    So anyway that is some of the stuff in the letters and tapes.

  10. #10
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    Wow, aspidistra, thank you so much for the synopsis. Good thinking about saving this stuff to your harddrive. This is really compelling. I wish he was telling the truth instead of fantasizing. It would be such a huge relief to solve this case.

    The thing about JB being strung up really rings true to me. I have often thought that was possible, probably because her arms were over her head, weren't they? Or am I wrong?

    I know his DNA didn't match, etc., but man alive. He obviously has been obsessed for so long, he could put himself inside the killer and basically draw a picture. **shudder**

    He is deranged. And dangerous.
    The above post is my opinion to which I am entitled.

    Philippians 2:5-10~~'nuff said.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelayne
    Wow, aspidistra, thank you so much for the synopsis. Good thinking about saving this stuff to your harddrive. This is really compelling. I wish he was telling the truth instead of fantasizing. It would be such a huge relief to solve this case.

    The thing about JB being strung up really rings true to me. I have often thought that was possible, probably because her arms were over her head, weren't they? Or am I wrong?

    I know his DNA didn't match, etc., but man alive. He obviously has been obsessed for so long, he could put himself inside the killer and basically draw a picture. **shudder**

    He is deranged. And dangerous.
    There was never any evidence that she was suspended or that her wrists or feet were bound by cord as he said. That seems to rule out that part of the story.

    Since the dna didn't match, it seems that he got his scenario from reading about the case on line for years, and his mental illness has made him take on the identity of the unknown person who did this. That is the only thing that currently makes sense to me. And I was sure he did it. He did hint that another person, a woman, was involved with him that night, but we have no dna for a woman. And later he admitted he was there alone. Anyway the bottom line is, he mixes lies with truth. Like he can teach a class, and sincerely teach voice diction, English, etc., yet in his mind be attracted to a child and be planning how to lie and deceive to get her to give in to him. I just don't know what they will do since apparently people cannot be committed unless they agree to it now. I am interested to see if Karr ever admits he made it up. After all, I read that his half brother and father visited him in jail and they had an emotional reunion. I cannot imagine him insisting to them that he did it. I think if he insists that even to his family, maybe they will find a way to force him to get psychological help.

    PS about the tapes of the phone calls, I don't know how to upload them anywhere, and I would be afraid of breaking copyright laws if I did. I think somehow they will make their way back to the internet; I don't know the repercussions of someone else sharing them, but they were publicly released by the DA for 2 days, for anyone to hear as long as they downloaded them. More importantly, not that many people want to hear his obsessive talking. You have to be able to stand hearing it, as it's so psychotic and disturbing to hear. So maybe it's better not to hear it. I have not listened to any more and don't want to. I think I heard more than I ever wanted to.

    Having said that, I admit he sounds like an interesting and intelligent person when he's just talking about normal things. He may never have killed anyone or even harmed anyone. And so if he could be treated for his personality disorders I think he could be a productive member of society. I see him taking a very eccentric persona in the future, either becoming gay after his sex change (surely castration and removing of the testosterone will remove his sex drive toward females?) or becoming asexual. He might focus on his religious or psychic streaks and due to his guilt over pedophilia, abandon that, especially if he gets treatment. In one part of the tapes he mentions his bisexuality, even though he denies that he is gay. I think that his becoming a woman is his ticket to admitting he is gay. He might feel that will restore him to his true persona, as he always felt female. I am not a psychologist but I did work for a psychiatrist and am familiar with some of these things.

  12. #12
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    THE BLACK JAGUAR IN BOULDER; and Karr as real estate agent

    Although it is clear that Karr was not the killer, I haven't heard answers to other evidence of his at least being involved.

    - the black Jaguar we know Karr owned. Here is a transcript:
    Lou Smit: Do you know anyone that owns a -
    John Ramsey: Hold on, yes, I do. There is a guy that had an apartmnet or apartments in Barbara Fernie's mother's complex, that we looked at renting, this was after this happened, for a place to live. And he had a black Jaguar I believe.
    Lou Smit: There was one seen in the neighbourhood, the Whites on that morning or that evening so -
    JR: That's the only black Jaguar I have seen in Boulder. This guy's got to be a short guy. He was in real estate. He was an (inaudible) but just peculiar, wasn't - I mean -
    (Multiple speakers)
    JR: No, but the Fernies might, because I think they put - I can't think of the name of the apartment complex, but it's where Barbara's mother had an apartment. In Boulder. He had to leave - I think he had left it there where he had a sublease perhaps.

    ------

    1. We know Karr was or claimed to be in real estate at some point in his life. We know his father owned real estate and apartment buildings, at least in Hamilton. Therefore has anyone checked whether Karr or anyone with his description was working in Real Estate in Boulder at all in that time period?
    2. We know he was short, and we know the term "peculiar" could apply to him.
    3. We know he looked different in 1997 so John Ramsey would understandably not connect the way he looks now to the way he looked then. He was 31 or 32; he had not yet begun hormone treatment and did not look thin and effeminate. The telling point would be the piercing blue eyes, if JR could remember that as the reason he was "peculiar". We also know Karr does many different voices, and might have completely concealed his southern accent at any time, so that John Ramsey may never have heard him speak in his normal accent even if he had met him.
    4. We now know Karr's ex wife admits she is not sure if they were separated in 1996 or not; he might not have been with her and their kids in Alabama. Therefore he might have been living and working in Boulder in 1996-97 even if only partially.
    5. We also know that Karr claimed his family would lie for him.

    Has anyone found out if that peculiar short man was identified? Does anyone have a link about Barbara Fernie's mother, the apartment building, and any connection to the Karr family?

    Even though Karr did not commit the murder, he still might know who did and is trying to take the blame on to himself to protect them.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by aspidistra

    4. We now know Karr's ex wife admits she is not sure if they were separated in 1996 or not; he might not have been with her and their kids in Alabama. Therefore he might have been living and working in Boulder in 1996-97 even if only partially.
    We do? I thought I'd read everything on this, but this is one thing I haven't heard. When did this come out? I thought the authorities knew he was teaching in Alabama at least until the 23rd of December 1996?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandraladeda
    We do? I thought I'd read everything on this, but this is one thing I haven't heard. When did this come out? I thought the authorities knew he was teaching in Alabama at least until the 23rd of December 1996?
    It was in the news in the last 2 days (after the dna non-match was announced). Lara admitted they were having marital problems in 1996 and she can't be certain he was home for Chrismas. I'll try to find a link for the story.

    It's possible he was teaching until Xmas break in Alabama, yet still estranged enough so that he wasn't living with her for a time. I didn't see any evidence at all either way. I was surprised Mary Lacy thought the family gave an adequate alibi.

    Though the dna doesn't match, I still think he could be involved with the real killer in some way. I don't like setting it aside until things are ruled out.

    There's the black jaguar for instance.

    I have a lot of unanswered questions but to do more research I need the names of Karr's paternal grandparents. All I know is he was close to his grandmother, and his grandfather was a deacon. His grandmother raised him to be a Southern gentleman, he said. He was upset when she died. I am trying to find a link between relatives or friends of the Ramseys, and relatives of John Karr. Since the Ramseys and Karrs lived in the same state at one point, even on the same street, there could very well be a reason he knew them and had met them, even if they didn't recognize or remember him. He did change his appearance radically since the sex change preparations. He didn't use to look effeminate and thin, and he had more and darker hair.

  15. #15
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    He says imitating Katharine Hepburn is like a car starting up on a cold morning.
    That's a very old Martin Short line, who was famous for his Hepburn impersonation.



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