EVERY Possibility...

If there is one "Good" thing that has happened from this JMK fiasco, it is that millions of people are now thinking about JonBenet Ramsey, a little girl who was savagely murdered 10 long years ago. Because she was pretty and her family had money and lived in the 'perfect town' this made the case crawl with media attention. This provided sleuthers with tons of information. (It is a shame that every case could not receive the same attention to allow so many minds to theorize and possibly help solve the case. Remember Lacy's comment... that her department did not have the manpower that the media has? The more people who look at a case the more possibilities for its being solved... )

Just because JMK wasn't the right one, doesn't mean that everyone should just forget this case and let it return to a stone cold status. Maybe someone will ponder long enough to come up with a logical theory and that someone will actually put 2 and 2 together and come up with details that will jog someone's memory and flush out the real killer...

My cousin is Tara Grinstead's Aunt. Tara's case is now considered 'cold' as far as new leads... and intensive investigative work goes. It is very sad to hear the lack of progress from my family. I feel deeply for their pain.

I know that there are many here who have actively followed JonBenet's case for 10 long years and remain dedicated to it, but there are many newer ones who are likely to move on now. Before you move on to another case, drifting back here occasionally, would you consider all the possibilities at least one more time here? Would you put in your :twocents: worth?

I realize that no one knows absolutely what goes on behind closed doors..........except the ones behind the closed doors. But........

I watched the Black Daliah Mystery special last night on TV. A wealthy doctor, a BEAUTIFUL home, a seemingly perfect family...if you looked only from the outside. The daughter was close friends with Michelle Phillips of the Mamma's and the Pappa's and told Michelle years ago of the father/doctor sexually abusing. The daughter even went to the police and charges against her Dr. daddy were filed. He was found 'not guilty' but it was believed he 'paid' off the DA and LE. This guy even had a secret 'sex' room in his home. The son wrote a book about the Black Daliah murder and sincerely believes his father did it.

I try to wrap my mind around every possible theory to form an opinion on who killed JBR, but still can't get off the fence. Almost every fact in this case is conflicted with some experts saying: 'The blow came before death and some saying after death. The blow could have come first but did not kill her explaining the petechial hemmoraging from strangulation... Some say a stun gun was possibly used. Some say not...' The list of confliting 'expert' opinion goes on and on...It is so confusing...to even try to form a theory...unless you consider all the facts with the possibility of 'human error' with each. My head is constantly spinning...........

Where was the flashight usually stored? Beside the parents bed in a nightstand?
Was it common for there to be a flashlight beside JBR's bed to help her to see going to the bathroom at night or for security from 'monsters' under her bed? Was this question ever asked by LE?

Hypothetically~
If you try to imagine a possible theory that the parents did it:

Both Parents already know that there are chronic vaginal indications of 'something'.
Creating the 'perfect life, the perfect Christmas' is hectic to say the least.
Everyone, except you, is sound asleep.
You are still running around packing for an after Christmas trip.
Your husband has skipped out most of the day to do whatever.
You have ovarian cancer. Your intimate life with your husband is nil.
Your daughter has a cold and has been cranky. She wasn't overjoyed over her 'best' Christmas gift.
You finally drop into bed and fall asleep. You suddenly awaken remembering one more thing you need to pack for your daughter.
Your husband isn't in bed. He probably couldn't sleep. You take the flashlight beside your bed so you don't awaken your child.
When you enter the room your child is on her knees on her bed (or at her bedside), all dolled in one of her pagent wigs. She is answering her Daddy's request. He is lying on her bed.

The position the child's body had to be in when struck by the object works. The child had to be vertical when struck. (or at least not horizontal on a bed or floor) As some have suggested, the wig padded the blow so as not to cause severe breakage of the skin and excessive outward bleeding. The reason for both parents need to cover up the crime they way it was supposedly 'staged' now works...

As for the intruder theory.
The child has wetting, soiling issues. Mom has to clean her using a bathcloth with her finger inserted in cloth. This causes vaginal abrasions and stretches the vagina.
The intruder (Helgoth??? and partner) enter the house thru a side door locked only with the doorknob lock. Write the note. Wait for family to return and go to sleep. Note is writtten. Stun gun is used. Take child to basement. Garrote is made and used. Helgoth wanted to 'crack' a skull to see how it would feel, so he does it. This just doesn't add up....Why wouldn't they just exit the same way they came inside the house as quickly as possible and do whatever to the child after leaving the home? Why go to the basement? They wanted the money they were to be paid for kidnapping...so why chance getting caught with the basement scene? If they were druggies and high, maybe...Then what? Why leave the body there? They heard someone awake and wandering around the house and ran???

OK... Intruder theory #2...
The nutcase who attacked the 2nd child in Boulder (the child who attended the same dance studio as JBR) after JBR's murder...
He enters the house the same as above...Writes the note for a delay tactic. Make garrote. (Assume that the hair in the knots actually got inside the knots as they were twisted... Assume it was not made on the child.) Mouth is duct taped. Garrote is used for control. Arms tied together. Move child to basement in order to Perform sexual acts... without as much chance of being caught. Hits child in head while she is hanging w/ arms above her. Cuts child down. Positions body for others to find. Places note on stairs to delay search for intruder. Leaves same door he entered.

Humm... I think this is why this board (and the rest of the world) is so divided on "Who did it?". Both the parents and the 2nd intruder theory could have happened without exploding our minds with the "No way... that just doesn't make sense...conflicts..."

How sad for JonBenet! She should have justice.

How have your theories been altered in the last two weeks?

If there were evidence of an intruder, I could almost believe that the Ramseys were innocent of the murder but guilty of the sexual abuse, and decided to create all the deceptions not to hide the murder, but to cover up the sexual abuse.

In this scenario, Patsy discovers John is abusing Jonbenet in the days before Christmas. He promises to get counseling, etc. and she agrees to keep quiet about it for the sake of keeping the family together. Totally unrelated to any of this, an intruder murders Jonbenet. The Ramseys discover the body during the night and realizing the sexual abuse will be discovered during the murder investigation, begin the cover up. Perhaps John convinces Patsy that there is nothing they can that will bring Jonbenet back, but they can save the rest of the family by making it look like a kidnapping/sex crime. So the cover up begins, and this explains all the deception on the part of the Ramseys and also what I believe is genuine grief over their daughter's death (which I believe could be genuine even if they are culpable).

But the evidence of an intruder is like the "magic bullet" theory about the Kennedy assasination. You have to suspend disbelief in order to accept it. You would have to believe that the intruder came into the house like a ghost, murdered her somewhere in the house without leaving any trace of a struggle, all the while with the parents and brother sleeping in the house, and left behind only some degraded DNA as evidence of his presence.

I can accept the angry parent theory, but not the bazaar treatment of her body.

The intruder theory, I keep mulling over coming in thru the open garage door while the family was getting the holiday baskets and John was carying Jonbenet upstairs and leaving the same way. If the switch to open the door from the inside is close enough, just open it, then press close and quickly get out as its closing. I just don't know if they could have heard it all the way upstairs.

Hi Angelwings, good post.I am at a lost because I think the thing that the whole Karr debarcle has highlighted is the fact that for there to have been an intruder there would need to be more evidence left behind.I always thought that LE had something 'big' they were holding back. Thanks to Karr we know this is not true(IMO).No, as much as I would like to believe it was an intruder that violated JBR my feelings are that it was an inside job.
I can't get past all the evidence that points to previous sexual assault.No child suffers all thses 'pointers' without a good parent asking questions.John and Patsy Ramsay were not good parents in my view.They were negligent because they had a duty to care for JBR and protect her. I think the pediatrician that JBR was taken to should be questioned again.
Was he turning a blind eye because Patsy was sooo nice, sweet and affluant.
We know that a lot of people in this case were 'blinded' by the Ramsay's social poition and money. Why not him.
LE needs to stand back take a deep breath and reassign a couple of good , clean cops to the case.Keep the damn DA's out and review all evidence and interview all involved. This is the 'only' way that we willever see jusice for Jon Benet.
If I was a citizen of Boulder i would demand it!

Hi Angelwings,

Your post was a big charge to contemplate, so I'll think on it overnight.

But I want to say now, there was one more blessing to Karr having been brought to the forefront in the eyes of everyone in the world who watches tv, reads a newspaper or chats with his buddies during break time.

Pedophiles have come out of their stinky closet for all the world to see what they do, how they act and why they can be so dangerous to our children. They are going to be so much more clearly watched now and laws will be tightened up so as to hopefully choke them out of society as a whole. It is a humungous task, but at least it is out there now and ready for all to be aware.

Angel, I usually stay so busy on a topic I don't get around to reading everything. I am so sorry about Tara, and tomorrow evening I will read everything I can about her case. Thanks for your post Angelwings.

Scandi

It is obvious that Lacy is too biased to do her job:

Lacy, who was an assistant D.A. under Hunter, didn't take any publicly known action on the case until nearly two years into her term, and then she did so only after receiving a letter from Ramsey attorney Wood informing her, according to press reports, that the Ramseys were considering suing Boulder unless they were exonerated.

Lacy didn't tell Boulder residents of her decision to take an active role in the case, but she did tell Ramsey attorney Wood. In a letter to him, she said the Boulder police investigation of the Ramseys had been "exhaustive and thorough," that she would proceed without any further investigation by police, using her department's own investigators, that she would focus on new leads or leads not previously investigated, that she would work "cooperatively" with retired detective Smit who is the prime advocate of the intruder theory, that she would make "every effort to communicate openly with you," and that she would not go to the press to publicize her decision.

She was acting, she wrote, because a "violent child murderer is at large."

Ramsey attorney Wood was delighted. His clients "are out from the umbrella of suspicion," he declared.

With her comment that there is "a violent child murderer at large," Lacy endorsed the Ramseys' theory of the case and absolved them of responsibility for what happened to their daughter.

Lacy has cut herself off from the investigative resources she needs to pursue the case.The D.A.'s staff has only two investigators, neither of whom is trained to do a homicide investigation, former Boulder assistant D.A. Bill Wise told the Rocky Mountain News.

She seemed like a very nice lady in the press conference. I think she means well.

But...

MAYBE WITH A NEW DA, the police will have access to ANY and ALL of their suspect's phone records. (No excuse for not doing that in the first place...NONE!)

How many Civil Suits have been filed by the Ramseys
against the people who dared to present the theory that the R's murdered their child? How many suits have been filed by Lin Wood?

A real eye opener for me about this case was when I went to Tricia's site(Forums For Justice), and began reading there. It will take a long time to read it all, but you will learn a lot of astounding information.

The R's have everyone who is investigating this case on their side. Everyone who believed that the R's were involved was dismissed from the case.

The members of the Grand Jury were convinced that these parents could not possibly have killed their child, yet people who are believed to be good loving parents do kill their children.

This case needs a new independent investigator.

angelwings--nice post--but I disagree on that potential Black Dahlia murder suspect you mention--the book I read was written by the daughter of the potential suspect--the daughter stated they were a lower-middle class family,and after reading it,became pretty convinced her own father committed this brutal crime--but,like Jack the Ripper,I guess we'll never really know for sure who did it--after all,its been 60 years

Beyond Belief said:

I can accept the angry parent theory, but not the bazaar treatment of her body.

The intruder theory, I keep mulling over coming in thru the open garage door while the family was getting the holiday baskets and John was carying Jonbenet upstairs and leaving the same way. If the switch to open the door from the inside is close enough, just open it, then press close and quickly get out as its closing. I just don't know if they could have heard it all the way upstairs.

Click to expand...

About an intruder pushing the button and running under the garage door when leaving -- This is a possibility I had never thought of! Good thinking Beyond Belief. I have done this before (in my younger days) at my own home. My husband does it every Saturday morning when his buddies pick him up for golf. I can barely hear our garage door going up and down when I am awake and in the farther end of the house, and we live in a single floor home. I would NOT hear it when I am asleep.

Last night, I reread many items at acandyrose and found a couple of answers to several questions which were bugging me... Below are personal conclusions to my questions:

1. In list of items taken from the home- 7 pair of child's underware/bloomies/panties (whatever term floats your boat) were removed from home and taken as evidence. (possibly the rest of the package of Bloomingdales size 12)

2. In interviews- transcripts- Access to home on evening of Dec 25 from returning from White's party and delivery of gifts after party was gained by the R's by electronic garage door opener. "Metal door" entering home locked or unlocked? answer...garage door down, metal door possibly unlocked... (This is pushing the intruder theory, but possibility exists: intruder could slide in as car entered garage, hide under the car as it parks until family enters and settles, enter home through unlocked interior metal 'unlocked' garage door leading into the main part of the house.

3. In interviews- Question asked- What people received keys to your home? Answer older chilodren, cleaning lady, the B____???___ who were neighbors, etc. 2 keys given to the B___???___ neighbors after they 'lost"' one. John was not aware of key at neighbors to be used in case of lock out by family. (It takes about 5 minutes to have a key made at any hardware store and occasionaly at gas stations as well... As far as intruder theory goes: All evidence of forced entry are virtually worthless with this many keys to home floating around out there.)

4. In interview- Patsy with apparent ease steps over the RN on stairs and turns back to read it. "IF" this is true, the 'intruder' could have also done the same. The note could have been placed on stairs prior to entering JBR's room and simply avoided on retrun trip downstairs.

5.In interview- Disturbance of dustruffle in JAR's room could easily have been the result of PR using that room to pack certain suitcases for cruise on 29th (? her birthday/date/?)

6. In interview- Items in front of trainroom door could have been moved by intruder to slow down family who 'had' awaken early as he was exiting...if he was stupid enough to go out a window instead of a door.

7. From #3 above...'metal door'.... (If metal door, it's a good chance that there was also a 'metal frame' . A child's head rammed accidently into a metal door frame as she was carried, asleep, into a house from a garage would certainly do some serious damage, in my opinion.)

8. In answer to question by another poster on another thread here...from interviews-PR says: The "TV Room" is the small den.
{This is where JR and PR w/ friends/priest/LE congregates on the morning of the 26th to await the phone call from kidnappers about the ransom... Which leads to another question. If PR is in the TV room w/LE when JR runs back up the stairs to get the 'blanket/throw' to cover JBR, ( because he 'doesn't want PR to see her that way'), then doesn't he think PR would become somewhat alarmed by him rushing in and grabbing a throw and rushing back out of the same room that she was in???? }

It is no wonder that no one has been convicted of this crime to date. For every answered question there are 3+ possible scenerios that support RDI and an additional 3+ that would support IDI theories! I seriously think my head may explode if I spend another night rereading information on this case all night until dawn!

angelwngs said:

It is no wonder that no one has been convicted of this crime to date. For every answered question there are 3+ possible scenerios that support RDI and an additional 3+ that would support IDI theories! I seriously think my head may explode if I spend another night rereading information on this case all night until dawn!

Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean! I keep telling myself to logoff and go play a video game. :doh:

then press close and quickly get out as its closing.

Click to expand...

This theory wouldnt' work if they have an automatic garage door like mine. Mine has a lazer light for safety so that if you hit the button and try to run out before the door closes, you hit the light and the door goes back up automatically.

Peter Hamilton said:

angelwings--nice post--but I disagree on that potential Black Dahlia murder suspect you mention--the book I read was written by the daughter of the potential suspect--the daughter stated they were a lower-middle class family,and after reading it,became pretty convinced her own father committed this brutal crime--but,like Jack the Ripper,I guess we'll never really know for sure who did it--after all,its been 60 years

Click to expand...

i watched the same show that angelwings saw....it was about George Hodel, a very wealthy Dr....it gave me a lot of 'food for thought' while watching it...Hodel's daughter claimed he had sexually molested her...Hodel's son wrote a book also...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dahlia#Suspects

Class-z said:

This theory wouldnt' work if they have an automatic garage door like mine. Mine has a lazer light for safety so that if you hit the button and try to run out before the door closes, you hit the light and the door goes back up automatically.

Click to expand...

Our laser light is at the bottom and it's easy to jump over. However, if someone gets in our garage and attempts to get into our house, they still have to go through a double locked house door. What exactly was the door like at the R's that lead from the garage into the house??

Class-z said:

This theory wouldnt' work if they have an automatic garage door like mine. Mine has a lazer light for safety so that if you hit the button and try to run out before the door closes, you hit the light and the door goes back up automatically.

Click to expand...

Our lazer light is about 8 inches off the ground and it is easy to detect the apparatus on both sides of the door that makes it work and how high you need to step to avoid tripping the opening or closing door. We just step over it when we need to enter or exit and the door when the remote has already been activated. I wonder if in 1996 the R's house had one.

"How many Civil Suits have been filed by the Ramseys
against the people who dared to present the theory that the R's murdered their child? How many suits have been filed by Lin Wood?"

TOO DAMN MANY! They're nothing but bullies! And I HATE bullies!

"The R's have everyone who is investigating this case on their side. Everyone who believed that the R's were involved was dismissed from the case."

yep. Mark Fuhrman mentioned that.

"The members of the Grand Jury were convinced that these parents could not possibly have killed their child, yet people who are believed to be good loving parents do kill their children."

That's what happens when you rely on people too dumb to get out of jury duty!

Scandi,

So true! You brought up another very good outcome of the JMK fiasco, "Pedophiles have come out of their stinky closet for all the world to see.... " them as they are. Hopefully, we will see the effect of this in more strict punishment of convicted pedophiles.

Thank you for your reply and for your offer to update your reading of Tara's space at here at WS. In all honesty, until very recently, it has been too close to my heart to dig my heels into. I am beginning to think that I am about ready to toughen my skin and dive into her threads here and see if I can help warm up 'the pot of cold mush' that seems to be chilling in her case... Much of my concerns now lie in my 1st hand knowledge of the corruption of LE in South GA. I have two uncles who were murdered in S. GA. Both cases were never solved, nor justice achieved, due to the murky, black waters of corruption within the 'system'.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"That's what happens when you rely on people too dumb to get out of jury duty!"

SuperDave, That is so true it hurts! But tell me that I am at least half the judge of character which I believe myself to be. PLEASE Tell me that YOU would use reverse psychology on yourself and serve your conscious and your fellow man by not using your superior intellect and judgement and that you would indeed honor your own call to jury duty...???...

"PLEASE Tell me that YOU would use reverse psychology on yourself and serve your conscious and your fellow man by not using your superior intellect and judgement and that you would indeed honor your own call to jury duty...???..."

I sure hope so!