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  1. #1
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    Questions about the ability of the Ramseys to maintain a lie.

    In asking this series of questions I am trying to understand better the Psychological profile and mindset of someone who purports to be a Christian but commits such horrendous acts as the murder and sexual molestation of a child, or a Christian who had no part in the actual murder/sexual molestation but participated in the secrecy and cover-up, and then (in either scenario) maintains his/her innocence day in and day out without wavering in front of millions of people, the police, family, friends, the pastor/Priest at his/her church, etc. included, causing much time, energy, emotion, resources, etc. to be committed to solving the case, the investigation, pointing the finger at, disruption of the lives of those who are not even involved, widespread fear, etc. I am separating the original act in this case (murder, sexual molestation, and/or cover-up) and focusing more on the perpetuation of a facade of innocence and how this reconciles with one‘s core beliefs as a Christian.

    Whether we are Christian or not, all of us as humans are fallible, so my question is not whether or not a Christian could/would commit such acts, for none of us without sin, transgressions. But if a person is a Christian and he/she commits a sin, isn’t it within his/her beliefs (no matter what Christian denomination he/she belongs) the core idea that to be forgiven and allowed into the Kingdom of God you have to confess your sins and ask forgiveness? Is it enough to confess your sin/ask forgiveness to God alone, but then keep lying that you were not involved? Or is there an implication that you will confess ask for forgiveness from everyone affected by your lie? Also, if you ask forgiveness from God for lying but then keep on lying, how does that settle with one’s Christian faith? Faced with the possibility of eternal damnation, would you take a chance and save all your transgressions up, hoping you are coherent enough in your last moments to make peace with God through a final deathbed confession?

    Yes, I know there are plenty of examples of people throughout history (and probably each of us can think of examples of people our personal lives) who purport to be Christian, yet continually maintain facades, lie, commit various transgressions throughout life, and then make a final confession only moments before death, but few have done so without breaking under the continual scrutiny and watchful eye of the media and much of the world.

    When exposed to sensationalized crimes through the media, I give attention to the good and the bad, try to examine the data objectively, hold off on quick, misguided value judgements when I do not know all of the facts in a case, etc., and this is particularly true in the murder case of JonBenet. I do not pretend to know everything about what happened and remain continually cognizant that there was a degree of contamination/mishap in the collection of crime scene evidence and that not all evidence/details have been released to/leaked to the general public. I also give credence to the idea that the best indicator of present/future behaviour is the past.

    Does anyone have any insight/knowledge of the Ramsey’s Christian beliefs, ideas of forgiveness, etc.? I am not asking these questions from a personal standpoint of a particular RDI or IDI theory, even if the Ramseys were not Christian I wouldn’t change my position of remaining in the middle/a fence sitter in light of the current evidence. And again, I realize that people are capable of hiding behind their faith and/or using their faith as a ruse for support, sympathy, favouritism, etc., I understand that there are sociopaths capable of maintaining a lie to anyone and everyone without any sort of remorse or syptoms of guilt, and I also understand that people sometimes get so caught up in a lie they begin to convince themselves they are telling truth.


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by leighl

    Whether we are Christian or not, all of us as humans are fallible, so my question is not whether or not a Christian could/would commit such acts, for none of us without sin, transgressions. But if a person is a Christian and he/she commits a sin, isn’t it within his/her beliefs (no matter what Christian denomination he/she belongs) the core idea that to be forgiven and allowed into the Kingdom of God you have to confess your sins and ask forgiveness? Is it enough to confess your sin/ask forgiveness to God alone, but then keep lying that you were not involved? Or is there an implication that you will confess ask for forgiveness from everyone affected by your lie? Also, if you ask forgiveness from God for lying but then keep on lying, how does that settle with one’s Christian faith? Faced with the possibility of eternal damnation, would you take a chance and save all your transgressions up, hoping you are coherent enough in your last moments to make peace with God through a final deathbed confession?
    Interesting topic. I will say that my understanding of Christianity in terms of sinning and forgiving and entrance into heaven is that it is enough to admit the sin to God, to yourself and to another human being (often a priest) and then to take actions not to repeat the sin.

    If Patsy did indeed commit this crime and/or cover it up, she probably viewed it as an accident or something she did sacrificially for the greater good. She probably felt certain that she would never again repeat such a crime, hence her taking action not to repeat the sin.

    In Christianity, what is done is done and cannot be undone yet past transgressions can be wiped clean through God's love and in the future one would sincerely strive to do better.

    For all we know, Patsy had a religious advisor who she has told and continued to tell everything to and so she felt clean to go to God. Truth be told, we cannot know what was in her heart when she passed.

  3. #3
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    "But if a person is a Christian and he/she commits a sin, isn’t it within his/her beliefs (no matter what Christian denomination he/she belongs) the core idea that to be forgiven and allowed into the Kingdom of God you have to confess your sins and ask forgiveness?"

    You'd think so, leighl. But a quick reading of history teaches us that people have been able to justify ANYTHING as God's will. That doesn't sway me one whit.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by leighl
    In asking this series of questions I am trying to understand better the Psychological profile and mindset of someone who purports to be a Christian but commits such horrendous acts as the murder and sexual molestation of a child, or a Christian who had no part in the actual murder/sexual molestation but participated in the secrecy and cover-up, and then (in either scenario) maintains his/her innocence day in and day out without wavering in front of millions of people, the police, family, friends, the pastor/Priest at his/her church, etc. included, causing much time, energy, emotion, resources, etc. to be committed to solving the case, the investigation, pointing the finger at, disruption of the lives of those who are not even involved, widespread fear, etc. I am separating the original act in this case (murder, sexual molestation, and/or cover-up) and focusing more on the perpetuation of a facade of innocence and how this reconciles with one‘s core beliefs as a Christian.

    Whether we are Christian or not, all of us as humans are fallible, so my question is not whether or not a Christian could/would commit such acts, for none of us without sin, transgressions. But if a person is a Christian and he/she commits a sin, isn’t it within his/her beliefs (no matter what Christian denomination he/she belongs) the core idea that to be forgiven and allowed into the Kingdom of God you have to confess your sins and ask forgiveness? Is it enough to confess your sin/ask forgiveness to God alone, but then keep lying that you were not involved? Or is there an implication that you will confess ask for forgiveness from everyone affected by your lie? Also, if you ask forgiveness from God for lying but then keep on lying, how does that settle with one’s Christian faith? Faced with the possibility of eternal damnation, would you take a chance and save all your transgressions up, hoping you are coherent enough in your last moments to make peace with God through a final deathbed confession?

    Yes, I know there are plenty of examples of people throughout history (and probably each of us can think of examples of people our personal lives) who purport to be Christian, yet continually maintain facades, lie, commit various transgressions throughout life, and then make a final confession only moments before death, but few have done so without breaking under the continual scrutiny and watchful eye of the media and much of the world.

    When exposed to sensationalized crimes through the media, I give attention to the good and the bad, try to examine the data objectively, hold off on quick, misguided value judgements when I do not know all of the facts in a case, etc., and this is particularly true in the murder case of JonBenet. I do not pretend to know everything about what happened and remain continually cognizant that there was a degree of contamination/mishap in the collection of crime scene evidence and that not all evidence/details have been released to/leaked to the general public. I also give credence to the idea that the best indicator of present/future behaviour is the past.

    Does anyone have any insight/knowledge of the Ramsey’s Christian beliefs, ideas of forgiveness, etc.? I am not asking these questions from a personal standpoint of a particular RDI or IDI theory, even if the Ramseys were not Christian I wouldn’t change my position of remaining in the middle/a fence sitter in light of the current evidence. And again, I realize that people are capable of hiding behind their faith and/or using their faith as a ruse for support, sympathy, favouritism, etc., I understand that there are sociopaths capable of maintaining a lie to anyone and everyone without any sort of remorse or syptoms of guilt, and I also understand that people sometimes get so caught up in a lie they begin to convince themselves they are telling truth.

    Like religous beliefs has ANY bearing on how a person acts.
    I think maybe it was that fallacy that sent LS astray.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    475
    LOL. Read this some of this:

    http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/cults/...f_religion.htm

    Victims of Religion

    "...Dena Schlosser, 35, chopped the little arms off her eleven month old daughter Margaret. Dena, no doubt a Pro-Bush staunch "right to lifer" out to prevent any one from having an abortion, didn't think twice about killing her own child. She had calmly cut her baby's arms off while listening to Christian hymns playing on her stereo...

    ...God told Deanna Laney, the 39 year old mother of three boys, to kill her sons by bashing their brains in with a VERY large rock. Her defense attorney pointed out that "The dilemma she faced is a terrible one for a mother," Files told the jury. "Does she follow what she believes to be God's will, or does she turn her back on God?"...
    ***
    ...A 6-year-old girl was found dead in a motel room with a broken back Monday after what police said may have been an exorcism...
    ***
    ...A "deeply religious" family starved four of their adopted children to death. The four used to be taken to church regularly by their loving Christian parents...
    ***
    ...An eleven year old boy was caught cheating on a Bible test in church. As punishment, Pastor Joshua Thompson, of Capitol City Baptist Church, and the Pastor's brother, beat the boy with a stick for over an hour. They beat him so much the boy's kidneys failed...
    ***
    ...Alisa Izquierdo, age 6, was TORTURED TO DEATH by her mother who thought the little girl was POSSESSED BY THE DEVIL.

    'Alisa's body displayed a road map of pain so frightful that the paramedics who tried to revive her needed counseling'...
    ***
    ...A middle-ages Indian BEHEADED his young daughter last week in the western Indian state of Gujarat to appease a Hindu deity...
    ***
    ...Taylor[Dixon] was holding a butcher knife if her left hand and her young son in her right while she shouted (to the police), 'For the blood of Jesus!'

    The police shot her nine times. The boy was saved (by the cops, NOT Jesus). She had been Christmas shopping earlier that day..."

    ***

    Let's not forget Andrea Yates...

    Good, religious people - every one of them...
    The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.

  6. #6
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    The Crusades comes to mind.

  7. #7
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    It's quite true and well-documented that, in the history of the World, all manner of murderous, treacherous behavior has been committed in the name of God.

  8. #8
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    Sep 2003
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    We had a thread on this subject back on 8/25, where it
    was discussed that Patsy had made several remarks about
    sacrifice that year (according to Rupert). She decorated in
    purple ribbons as being symbolic of the Easter sacrifice being brought into Christmas. She said "No other religion has that" and that God sacrificed JonBenet at Christmas like a Shooting Star.

    JonBenet's dress and shoes were purple velvet and John
    remarked that she looked beautiful!

    My only conclusion is the Patsy had become mentally unbalanced, perhaps even psychotic. She had the stress
    of her cancer, she suspected JonBenet was being abused and she was jealous of John's attention towards JonBenet.
    She was no longer the prettiest girl in the house.

    She wanted to get rid of JonBenet and rationalized sacrificing her to God.

    She hoped she would still be Saved By The Cross!

    Nothing makes logical sense here because Patsy's mind was not making any sense at the time!!

    Why John covered for her, only he knows the answer to that.

  9. #9
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    Aug 2006
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    47
    Interesting topic for discussion.

    My theory is that BDI. So, I am going to try explain my theory on the mental process of the parents and why they made the decision to try to shield Burke from suspicion.

    This is only my theory, but it is the only one which makes sense to me. I don’t KNOW anything. I am only suggesting this possibility.

    My theory is that after Burke strangled JonBenet to death, and after he hit her HARD on head, and when he realized that she was unconscious and was not going to wake up, he may have awakened his parents out of fear. Or, perhaps Patsy had awaken with the intention of taking JonBenet to the restroom during the night (as was her practice) and not finding JonBenet or Burke in their beds, she found them downstairs. However the parents happened to be awaken in the middle of that night, when they discovered their daughter’s body, their next natural move would have been to turn to Burke and ask: What happened? What were you two doing? Why would you do that to her? These are natural questions that parents would ask.

    And I propose that Burke answered something like this: We were doing what I saw X and Y doing at X’s house. Or I was showing JonBenet what I saw X and Y doing the other night. I can imagine he said something like: I didn’t mean to hurt her. We were just playing. I don’t know why I hit her. I was afraid.

    When I first heard of JonBenet’s murder, my first thought was that it could have been her brother. And I thought that it was natural for the parents, once they realized they had lost their daughter, that they would decide to protect their son. But after thinking about this for a long while, and after learning more about the exact way JonBenet died, I have changed my opinion somewhat. Why would the parents feel the need to protect Burke, when his young age was protection enough?

    Then I read Blue Crab’s explanation of the device found around the child’s throat, and I agree with Blue Crab that what Burke was trying to do, was to act out the sexual deviate behavior of erotic asphyxiation.

    I say “act out” because it is clear to me that Burke didn’t understand EA. Erotic Asphyxiation intensifies the pleasure of organism to the person being choked. And I am certain that what ever sexual activity Burke and JonBenet were engaged in (playing doctor, maturbation), it did not include JonBenet’s willing participation in being choked to have a pleasurable organism. These children didn’t have the development to understand this sexual practice. So, why, then, did Burke have the cord around JonBenet’s neck? Then, it came to me! Burke had SEEN someone doing this exact thing! And that’s when I began to understand WHY it was so important to the parents that Burke not be questioned or examined by the police that day. The parents didn’t want Burke to tell the police that he was experimenting and trying out what he had seen X and Y doing.

    If this tragedy had been able to unfold naturally, without the Ramsey’s cover-up, the police would have found out that day why Burke did what he did; that Burke didn’t intend to kill his sister; that it was a tragic accident. But then the other shoe would have dropped! How was it possible that a 9-year boy had come to witness the sexual act of EA? How can that be? Who was negligent to allow the child to be exposed to this? Even if it was not intended that he witnessed it, where were his parents, that they weren’t supervising him?

    And then other questions could come up, for example. Did the parents know that X and Y were doing this? Had the parents ever witnessed or been made privy that such things were going on? Who were all of the people who knew about this sexual activity? Why were children (Ramsey's or otherwise) permitted to be in a home when such activity was taking place?

    All of these questions could result in the finding of the Ramsey’s being neglectful at best, and abusive at worse. In any case, the Ramsey’s feared that they could face losing custody of their son. This was their motive in staging the cover-up, lying, writing the ransom note, destroying evidence, and obstructing justice. The statute of limitations has probably expired on all of these possible charges.

    That is my theory of why the Ramsey’s attempted to throw suspicion on an intruder, and instead threw suspicion onto themselves. But they were successful in keeping suspicion away from their son, and as a result they were able to stay together and present a united front on their explanation of what happened that night.
    Last edited by i_dont_chat; 09-03-2006 at 07:24 PM.
    Everything I submit on this subject is my own personal opinion. I am basing my opinion on nothing other than the known facts in this case.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_dont_chat
    My theory is that after Burke strangled JonBenet to death, and after he hit her HARD on head, and when he realized that she was unconscious and was not going to wake up, he may have awakened his parents out of fear.
    Why on earth should Burke bash Jon Benet's head in after strangling her?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    Why on earth should Burke bash Jon Benet's head in after strangling her?
    Only God knows and of course Burke, if he was the one.
    Everything I submit on this subject is my own personal opinion. I am basing my opinion on nothing other than the known facts in this case.

  12. #12
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    There's evidence that the Ramseys, or at least John, were very surface Christians. I think Patsy probably was into it more, but could very easily convince herself that she was forgiven by God and did God's will.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave
    You'd think so, leighl. But a quick reading of history teaches us that people have been able to justify ANYTHING as God's will. That doesn't sway me one whit.
    Bless you my child.............

    In other words. I agree with you.

  14. #14
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    "It seems to me that the more psycho Christian someone is, the more adept they are at lying and killing. George W Bush springs to mind...."

    I didn't want to get into this, but since the gauntlet has been thrown down, it's hardly a case of it being just Christians. Look at Osama Bin Laden. He justifies his atrocities in the name of God.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by leighl
    In asking this series of questions I am trying to understand better the Psychological profile and mindset of someone who purports to be a Christian but commits such horrendous acts as the murder and sexual molestation of a child....
    If Patsy killed JonBenet, the mother is burning in hell as we speak.

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