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  1. #1
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    Time of the crime?

    There is so much misinformation in this case, it is amazing. I'm coming at it completely fresh. Never heard of Jonbenet Ramsey before the Karr furore in the press. I can only give my early impressions. Early impression - it is an absolute swamp of misinformation! I've never seen anything like it!

    We don't seem to have an agreed time of death. What time the crime? What clues I have seen seem to suggest the crime was earlier rather than later in the given pertiod 10pm 25th till 5.30-Am 26th. So maybe around midnightish?

    A neighbour heard a scream at 2am according to some reports, "just after midnight" according to other reports.

    All reports suggest rigor mortis and decay (smell) of the body was quite advanced.

    Pineapple was in the small intenstine, i.e. quite digested.

    All this says the time of the crime was more like, say, 1AM than, say, 4AM. But, as with all else, there seems no agreement on even these basic questions. Who disagrees with a 1AM approximate crime time?

    I want answers to this because the ransom note has one curious feature - it uses the word "tomorrow". The "kidnapper" will ring 8am-10am "tomorrow". And it seems this means 8am-10am of the 26th. The cops and Ramseys took it to mean this anyway - they sat by the phone.

    So, if the author thinks 8am-10am of the 26th is "tomorrow" then today must be 25th.

    But, of course, in common use "today" and "tomorrow" are words used somewhat loosely. For example, if I go to bed at 1am I might still refer to the next morning as "tomorrow" meaning "after sleeping". There does come a point in an all-night vigil, though, where one begins to say "I will see you tomorrow...I mean today..." because the night is so advanced. Days begin and end at midnight, officially, but sometimes we speak as if the day begins at sunrise.

    In any case, for the RN author the 26th was "tomorrow". So it could have been written before midnight 25th, or for a while after midnight 25th, but you wouldn't write "tomorrow" if you were writing at, say, 5am.

    The next problem this raises is that "tomorrow" is a time signature meant for Mr Ramsey (the intended reader). Did the author know the Ramseys would be getting up early on morning 26th? If not, then Ramsey's might have got up at 7am or 8am or later - being a holiday that day. Early rising is usual on Christmas morn (presents!) but the 26th is for many a day to sleep in and recover from Christmas day madness and clashes with the in-laws. When did the RN author anticipate that JR would find the note? Presumably before 8am because he/she promises to ring then.

    Or does "tomorrow" mean 27th?

    The time signatures in this note are very interesting. One of the wierdest things in the note is the idea of an "early pick-up" of the child if they detect JR going to the bank ahead of time. Do they mean on the 26th or 27th? Again: when did they anticipate he would find the note?

  2. #2
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    It is very strange, at least that I am aware of, that no approximate time of death wa established. After all, it isn't rocket science.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzm1
    It is very strange, at least that I am aware of, that no approximate time of death wa established. After all, it isn't rocket science.
    Exactly. I know there are lots of variables but you'd think you could establish an approximate time of death. In the documentation I've read so far there is a gaping time window between 10pm (Jonbenet last reported seen) and 5.30am (ransom note found, Jonbenet gone).

    Who can narrow it down for me? Am I right in thinking the time of the crime must be earlier in that timeframe than later? Has anyone supposed that Patsy got up at 5amish and did the deed then? More likely it was done earlier, yes? In most RDI scenarios the girl is killed late at night on 25th. Yes?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plenum7
    Exactly. I know there are lots of variables but you'd think you could establish an approximate time of death. In the documentation I've read so far there is a gaping time window between 10pm (Jonbenet last reported seen) and 5.30am (ransom note found, Jonbenet gone).

    Who can narrow it down for me? Am I right in thinking the time of the crime must be earlier in that timeframe than later? Has anyone supposed that Patsy got up at 5amish and did the deed then? More likely it was done earlier, yes? In most RDI scenarios the girl is killed late at night on 25th. Yes?
    If the time of death could have been 5.30am at the latest, perhaps it could be stretched to 5.52 when the 911 call was made by Patsy, reporting the "kidnapping". The ransom note does say that the Ramsey's are being "monitored" and "if [they] talk to a stray dog, she dies". I don't necessarily believe this, but has anyone considered that it was a kidnapping after all and that JBR was killed when the Ramsey's called the police, against the kidnapper's explicit instructions. Perhaps the kidnappers were "watching over" the Ramsey's from the basement, with JBR, found out the Ramsey's had called the police, killed JBR in such a brutal fashion to "punish" the Ramsey's and exited the house from the basement window?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    If the time of death could have been 5.30am at the latest, perhaps it could be stretched to 5.52 when the 911 call was made by Patsy, reporting the "kidnapping". The ransom note does say that the Ramsey's are being "monitored" and "if [they] talk to a stray dog, she dies". I don't necessarily believe this, but has anyone considered that it was a kidnapping after all and that JBR was killed when the Ramsey's called the police, against the kidnapper's explicit instructions. Perhaps the kidnappers were "watching over" the Ramsey's from the basement, with JBR, found out the Ramsey's had called the police, killed JBR in such a brutal fashion to "punish" the Ramsey's and exited the house from the basement window?
    I actually have considered this.I thought,. well they didn't adhere to the demand and so they killed her. But I couldn't imagine getting her back in the house without being noticed. Then I thought if they were still in the house, they would have had a hard time getting out unnoticed after this point.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plenum7
    There is so much misinformation in this case, it is amazing. I'm coming at it completely fresh. Never heard of Jonbenet Ramsey before the Karr furore in the press. I can only give my early impressions. Early impression - it is an absolute swamp of misinformation! I've never seen anything like it!

    We don't seem to have an agreed time of death. What time the crime? What clues I have seen seem to suggest the crime was earlier rather than later in the given pertiod 10pm 25th till 5.30-Am 26th. So maybe around midnightish?

    A neighbour heard a scream at 2am according to some reports, "just after midnight" according to other reports.

    All reports suggest rigor mortis and decay (smell) of the body was quite advanced.

    Pineapple was in the small intenstine, i.e. quite digested.

    All this says the time of the crime was more like, say, 1AM than, say, 4AM. But, as with all else, there seems no agreement on even these basic questions. Who disagrees with a 1AM approximate crime time?

    I want answers to this because the ransom note has one curious feature - it uses the word "tomorrow". The "kidnapper" will ring 8am-10am "tomorrow". And it seems this means 8am-10am of the 26th. The cops and Ramseys took it to mean this anyway - they sat by the phone.

    So, if the author thinks 8am-10am of the 26th is "tomorrow" then today must be 25th.

    But, of course, in common use "today" and "tomorrow" are words used somewhat loosely. For example, if I go to bed at 1am I might still refer to the next morning as "tomorrow" meaning "after sleeping". There does come a point in an all-night vigil, though, where one begins to say "I will see you tomorrow...I mean today..." because the night is so advanced. Days begin and end at midnight, officially, but sometimes we speak as if the day begins at sunrise.

    In any case, for the RN author the 26th was "tomorrow". So it could have been written before midnight 25th, or for a while after midnight 25th, but you wouldn't write "tomorrow" if you were writing at, say, 5am.

    The next problem this raises is that "tomorrow" is a time signature meant for Mr Ramsey (the intended reader). Did the author know the Ramseys would be getting up early on morning 26th? If not, then Ramsey's might have got up at 7am or 8am or later - being a holiday that day. Early rising is usual on Christmas morn (presents!) but the 26th is for many a day to sleep in and recover from Christmas day madness and clashes with the in-laws. When did the RN author anticipate that JR would find the note? Presumably before 8am because he/she promises to ring then.

    Or does "tomorrow" mean 27th?

    The time signatures in this note are very interesting. One of the wierdest things in the note is the idea of an "early pick-up" of the child if they detect JR going to the bank ahead of time. Do they mean on the 26th or 27th? Again: when did they anticipate he would find the note?
    I find all of this curious also. How did they know the Ramseys would be up at that time (unless of course the writer of the note was one of the Ramseys or had some inside information about them)? It sounds like the time of death was somewhere around 1am, given that they got home around 9:30-10ish and the pinepapple was in the digestive system for a few hours. I could not imagine that the pineapple would be eaten as a midnight snack after having gone to bed. I am estimating that time of death was around the time the scream was heard. I cannot understand also when the time mentioned on the ransom note passed why did John Ramsey go out to collect the mail for a few hours. Surely if you were waiting for a phone call about the life or death of your child, you would hang around in case the kidnapper was still going to call.
    BTW, we have just had some awful news over here in Australia. Steve Irwin (the crocodile man) has died while filming a documentary. He was struck in the heart by a stingray and died instantly.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by denby
    I find all of this curious also. How did they know the Ramseys would be up at that time (unless of course the writer of the note was one of the Ramseys or had some inside information about them)? It sounds like the time of death was somewhere around 1am, given that they got home around 9:30-10ish and the pinepapple was in the digestive system for a few hours. I could not imagine that the pineapple would be eaten as a midnight snack after having gone to bed. I am estimating that time of death was around the time the scream was heard. I cannot understand also when the time mentioned on the ransom note passed why did John Ramsey go out to collect the mail for a few hours. Surely if you were waiting for a phone call about the life or death of your child, you would hang around in case the kidnapper was still going to call.
    BTW, we have just had some awful news over here in Australia. Steve Irwin (the crocodile man) has died while filming a documentary. He was struck in the heart by a stingray and died instantly.
    There is a thread on that in Up to the Minute. That is just so awful. i was shocked to hear this and they say his wife may not know yet. Thanks Denby.

  8. #8
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    Jul 2004
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    42
    Quote Originally Posted by JBean
    I actually have considered this.I thought,. well they didn't adhere to the demand and so they killed her. But I couldn't imagine getting her back in the house without being noticed. Then I thought if they were still in the house, they would have had a hard time getting out unnoticed after this point.
    Yeah.... but it was a big house, no one went in the wine cellar until hours later. They could have snuck out the basement window and no one would have seen.. possibly....

  9. #9
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    I think from the autopsy report time of death has pretty much been established at around 1pm.
    Patsy has an explanation of why the headstone says the 25th.

  10. #10
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    I think from the autopsy report time of death has pretty much been established at around 1pm.
    Patsy has an explanation of why the headstone says the 25th.
    er... you mean 1AM doncha? The body was discovered roughly 1:30PM on 12/26 and was observed to be in rigor. She would not have gone to full rigor in a half hour.

    Also too, the smell of decay would not be there until a good 36 to 72 hours later as rigor released. Decomp begins after rigor releases.


  11. #11
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    Whoops, hehe
    Yes I mean 1 am!

  12. #12
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by denby
    BTW, we have just had some awful news over here in Australia. Steve Irwin (the crocodile man) has died while filming a documentary. He was struck in the heart by a stingray and died instantly.
    Yeah, I've just heard that very sad news. As an Australian I'm shocked. Steve Irwin - everything that Paul Hogan only pretended to be. Last of the larrikins. Sad news.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by denby
    I cannot understand also when the time mentioned on the ransom note passed why did John Ramsey go out to collect the mail for a few hours. Surely if you were waiting for a phone call about the life or death of your child, you would hang around in case the kidnapper was still going to call.
    First i have heard this report. He went to get the mail? When?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trocaria
    er.The body was discovered roughly 1:30PM on 12/26 and was observed to be in rigor. She would not have gone to full rigor in a half hour. Also too, the smell of decay would not be there until a good 36 to 72 hours later as rigor released. Decomp begins after rigor releases.
    Found at roughly 1.30pm. A definite report of smell of decay. But time of death cannot have been 36-72 hours previous. At most 12-15 hours previous. Could there be smell of decay 12-15 hours after death?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    Patsy has an explanation of why the headstone says the 25th.
    What is Patsy's explanation for that?

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