Time of the crime?

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Plenum7

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There is so much misinformation in this case, it is amazing. I'm coming at it completely fresh. Never heard of Jonbenet Ramsey before the Karr furore in the press. I can only give my early impressions. Early impression - it is an absolute swamp of misinformation! I've never seen anything like it!

We don't seem to have an agreed time of death. What time the crime? What clues I have seen seem to suggest the crime was earlier rather than later in the given pertiod 10pm 25th till 5.30-Am 26th. So maybe around midnightish?

A neighbour heard a scream at 2am according to some reports, "just after midnight" according to other reports.

All reports suggest rigor mortis and decay (smell) of the body was quite advanced.

Pineapple was in the small intenstine, i.e. quite digested.

All this says the time of the crime was more like, say, 1AM than, say, 4AM. But, as with all else, there seems no agreement on even these basic questions. Who disagrees with a 1AM approximate crime time?

I want answers to this because the ransom note has one curious feature - it uses the word "tomorrow". The "kidnapper" will ring 8am-10am "tomorrow". And it seems this means 8am-10am of the 26th. The cops and Ramseys took it to mean this anyway - they sat by the phone.

So, if the author thinks 8am-10am of the 26th is "tomorrow" then today must be 25th.

But, of course, in common use "today" and "tomorrow" are words used somewhat loosely. For example, if I go to bed at 1am I might still refer to the next morning as "tomorrow" meaning "after sleeping". There does come a point in an all-night vigil, though, where one begins to say "I will see you tomorrow...I mean today..." because the night is so advanced. Days begin and end at midnight, officially, but sometimes we speak as if the day begins at sunrise.

In any case, for the RN author the 26th was "tomorrow". So it could have been written before midnight 25th, or for a while after midnight 25th, but you wouldn't write "tomorrow" if you were writing at, say, 5am.

The next problem this raises is that "tomorrow" is a time signature meant for Mr Ramsey (the intended reader). Did the author know the Ramseys would be getting up early on morning 26th? If not, then Ramsey's might have got up at 7am or 8am or later - being a holiday that day. Early rising is usual on Christmas morn (presents!) but the 26th is for many a day to sleep in and recover from Christmas day madness and clashes with the in-laws. When did the RN author anticipate that JR would find the note? Presumably before 8am because he/she promises to ring then.

Or does "tomorrow" mean 27th?

The time signatures in this note are very interesting. One of the wierdest things in the note is the idea of an "early pick-up" of the child if they detect JR going to the bank ahead of time. Do they mean on the 26th or 27th? Again: when did they anticipate he would find the note?
 
It is very strange, at least that I am aware of, that no approximate time of death wa established. After all, it isn't rocket science.
 
Buzzm1 said:
It is very strange, at least that I am aware of, that no approximate time of death wa established. After all, it isn't rocket science.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I know there are lots of variables but you'd think you could establish an approximate time of death. In the documentation I've read so far there is a gaping time window between 10pm (Jonbenet last reported seen) and 5.30am (ransom note found, Jonbenet gone).

Who can narrow it down for me? Am I right in thinking the time of the crime must be earlier in that timeframe than later? Has anyone supposed that Patsy got up at 5amish and did the deed then? More likely it was done earlier, yes? In most RDI scenarios the girl is killed late at night on 25th. Yes?
 
Plenum7 said:
Exactly. I know there are lots of variables but you'd think you could establish an approximate time of death. In the documentation I've read so far there is a gaping time window between 10pm (Jonbenet last reported seen) and 5.30am (ransom note found, Jonbenet gone).

Who can narrow it down for me? Am I right in thinking the time of the crime must be earlier in that timeframe than later? Has anyone supposed that Patsy got up at 5amish and did the deed then? More likely it was done earlier, yes? In most RDI scenarios the girl is killed late at night on 25th. Yes?
Click to expand...

If the time of death could have been 5.30am at the latest, perhaps it could be stretched to 5.52 when the 911 call was made by Patsy, reporting the "kidnapping". The ransom note does say that the Ramsey's are being "monitored" and "if [they] talk to a stray dog, she dies". I don't necessarily believe this, but has anyone considered that it was a kidnapping after all and that JBR was killed when the Ramsey's called the police, against the kidnapper's explicit instructions. Perhaps the kidnappers were "watching over" the Ramsey's from the basement, with JBR, found out the Ramsey's had called the police, killed JBR in such a brutal fashion to "punish" the Ramsey's and exited the house from the basement window?
 
Omega said:
If the time of death could have been 5.30am at the latest, perhaps it could be stretched to 5.52 when the 911 call was made by Patsy, reporting the "kidnapping". The ransom note does say that the Ramsey's are being "monitored" and "if [they] talk to a stray dog, she dies". I don't necessarily believe this, but has anyone considered that it was a kidnapping after all and that JBR was killed when the Ramsey's called the police, against the kidnapper's explicit instructions. Perhaps the kidnappers were "watching over" the Ramsey's from the basement, with JBR, found out the Ramsey's had called the police, killed JBR in such a brutal fashion to "punish" the Ramsey's and exited the house from the basement window?
Click to expand...
I actually have considered this.I thought,. well they didn't adhere to the demand and so they killed her. But I couldn't imagine getting her back in the house without being noticed. Then I thought if they were still in the house, they would have had a hard time getting out unnoticed after this point.
 
Plenum7 said:
There is so much misinformation in this case, it is amazing. I'm coming at it completely fresh. Never heard of Jonbenet Ramsey before the Karr furore in the press. I can only give my early impressions. Early impression - it is an absolute swamp of misinformation! I've never seen anything like it!

We don't seem to have an agreed time of death. What time the crime? What clues I have seen seem to suggest the crime was earlier rather than later in the given pertiod 10pm 25th till 5.30-Am 26th. So maybe around midnightish?

A neighbour heard a scream at 2am according to some reports, "just after midnight" according to other reports.

All reports suggest rigor mortis and decay (smell) of the body was quite advanced.

Pineapple was in the small intenstine, i.e. quite digested.

All this says the time of the crime was more like, say, 1AM than, say, 4AM. But, as with all else, there seems no agreement on even these basic questions. Who disagrees with a 1AM approximate crime time?

I want answers to this because the ransom note has one curious feature - it uses the word "tomorrow". The "kidnapper" will ring 8am-10am "tomorrow". And it seems this means 8am-10am of the 26th. The cops and Ramseys took it to mean this anyway - they sat by the phone.

So, if the author thinks 8am-10am of the 26th is "tomorrow" then today must be 25th.

But, of course, in common use "today" and "tomorrow" are words used somewhat loosely. For example, if I go to bed at 1am I might still refer to the next morning as "tomorrow" meaning "after sleeping". There does come a point in an all-night vigil, though, where one begins to say "I will see you tomorrow...I mean today..." because the night is so advanced. Days begin and end at midnight, officially, but sometimes we speak as if the day begins at sunrise.

In any case, for the RN author the 26th was "tomorrow". So it could have been written before midnight 25th, or for a while after midnight 25th, but you wouldn't write "tomorrow" if you were writing at, say, 5am.

The next problem this raises is that "tomorrow" is a time signature meant for Mr Ramsey (the intended reader). Did the author know the Ramseys would be getting up early on morning 26th? If not, then Ramsey's might have got up at 7am or 8am or later - being a holiday that day. Early rising is usual on Christmas morn (presents!) but the 26th is for many a day to sleep in and recover from Christmas day madness and clashes with the in-laws. When did the RN author anticipate that JR would find the note? Presumably before 8am because he/she promises to ring then.

Or does "tomorrow" mean 27th?

The time signatures in this note are very interesting. One of the wierdest things in the note is the idea of an "early pick-up" of the child if they detect JR going to the bank ahead of time. Do they mean on the 26th or 27th? Again: when did they anticipate he would find the note?
Click to expand...
I find all of this curious also. How did they know the Ramseys would be up at that time (unless of course the writer of the note was one of the Ramseys or had some inside information about them)? It sounds like the time of death was somewhere around 1am, given that they got home around 9:30-10ish and the pinepapple was in the digestive system for a few hours. I could not imagine that the pineapple would be eaten as a midnight snack after having gone to bed. I am estimating that time of death was around the time the scream was heard. I cannot understand also when the time mentioned on the ransom note passed why did John Ramsey go out to collect the mail for a few hours. Surely if you were waiting for a phone call about the life or death of your child, you would hang around in case the kidnapper was still going to call.
BTW, we have just had some awful news over here in Australia. Steve Irwin (the crocodile man) has died while filming a documentary. He was struck in the heart by a stingray and died instantly.
 
denby said:
I find all of this curious also. How did they know the Ramseys would be up at that time (unless of course the writer of the note was one of the Ramseys or had some inside information about them)? It sounds like the time of death was somewhere around 1am, given that they got home around 9:30-10ish and the pinepapple was in the digestive system for a few hours. I could not imagine that the pineapple would be eaten as a midnight snack after having gone to bed. I am estimating that time of death was around the time the scream was heard. I cannot understand also when the time mentioned on the ransom note passed why did John Ramsey go out to collect the mail for a few hours. Surely if you were waiting for a phone call about the life or death of your child, you would hang around in case the kidnapper was still going to call.
BTW, we have just had some awful news over here in Australia. Steve Irwin (the crocodile man) has died while filming a documentary. He was struck in the heart by a stingray and died instantly.
Click to expand...
There is a thread on that in Up to the Minute. That is just so awful. i was shocked to hear this and they say his wife may not know yet. Thanks Denby.
 
JBean said:
I actually have considered this.I thought,. well they didn't adhere to the demand and so they killed her. But I couldn't imagine getting her back in the house without being noticed. Then I thought if they were still in the house, they would have had a hard time getting out unnoticed after this point.
Click to expand...

Yeah.... but it was a big house, no one went in the wine cellar until hours later. They could have snuck out the basement window and no one would have seen.. possibly....
 
I think from the autopsy report time of death has pretty much been established at around 1pm.
Patsy has an explanation of why the headstone says the 25th.
 
narlacat said:
I think from the autopsy report time of death has pretty much been established at around 1pm.
Patsy has an explanation of why the headstone says the 25th.
Click to expand...
er... you mean 1AM doncha? The body was discovered roughly 1:30PM on 12/26 and was observed to be in rigor. She would not have gone to full rigor in a half hour.

Also too, the smell of decay would not be there until a good 36 to 72 hours later as rigor released. Decomp begins after rigor releases.
 
denby said:
BTW, we have just had some awful news over here in Australia. Steve Irwin (the crocodile man) has died while filming a documentary. He was struck in the heart by a stingray and died instantly.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've just heard that very sad news. As an Australian I'm shocked. Steve Irwin - everything that Paul Hogan only pretended to be. Last of the larrikins. Sad news.
 
denby said:
I cannot understand also when the time mentioned on the ransom note passed why did John Ramsey go out to collect the mail for a few hours. Surely if you were waiting for a phone call about the life or death of your child, you would hang around in case the kidnapper was still going to call.
Click to expand...

First i have heard this report. He went to get the mail? When?
 
Trocaria said:
er.The body was discovered roughly 1:30PM on 12/26 and was observed to be in rigor. She would not have gone to full rigor in a half hour. Also too, the smell of decay would not be there until a good 36 to 72 hours later as rigor released. Decomp begins after rigor releases.
Click to expand...

Found at roughly 1.30pm. A definite report of smell of decay. But time of death cannot have been 36-72 hours previous. At most 12-15 hours previous. Could there be smell of decay 12-15 hours after death?
 
Omega said:
If the time of death could have been 5.30am at the latest, perhaps it could be stretched to 5.52 when the 911 call was made by Patsy, reporting the "kidnapping". The ransom note does say that the Ramsey's are being "monitored" and "if [they] talk to a stray dog, she dies". I don't necessarily believe this, but has anyone considered that it was a kidnapping after all and that JBR was killed when the Ramsey's called the police, against the kidnapper's explicit instructions. Perhaps the kidnappers were "watching over" the Ramsey's from the basement, with JBR, found out the Ramsey's had called the police, killed JBR in such a brutal fashion to "punish" the Ramsey's and exited the house from the basement window?
Click to expand...

I think some scenario such as that ought to be considered. It doesn't make much sense, but no scenario makes much sense. This is the type of scenario I have in mind, trying to match the RN with the crime scene. But then the RN says 'You will be denied her body'. The note is so long, it seems, because the author is very, very anxious to impress upon Mr Ramsey that he should not contact the authorities. He had no hesitation doing just that. He's not blameworthy for that. I would have called the cops immediately too, regardless of the note. But I don't detect anything about the body and crime scene that specifically says "We warned you Ramsey!" And nothing else would indicate a death at around 6ish in the morning. Everything points to death earlier than that time.

Good to consider alternatives, though. The idea of "monitoring" the Ramseys could involve the "kidnapper" hiding in the house to watch what the Ramseys do. Where else would they monitor them from? But very, very unlikely.
 
Plenum7 said:
First i have heard this report. He went to get the mail? When?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I had read it in another post. However, i have checked further. It appears that Linda Arndt lost track of John Ramsey between 10:40 and 12 noon in the Ramsey house on 26th. When she saw him again he had the mail in his hand but apparently his mail was delivered through a hole in the front of the door. Linda Arndt had thought that he had gone out to get it. Even so, he was free to wander through the house unsupervised during this time. Refer pp. 118-119 Linda Arndt's deposition, http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5650
 
denby said:
Sorry, I had read it in another post. However, i have checked further. It appears that Linda Arndt lost track of John Ramsey between 10:40 and 12 noon in the Ramsey house on 26th. When she saw him again he had the mail in his hand but apparently his mail was delivered through a hole in the front of the door. Linda Arndt had thought that he had gone out to get it. Even so, he was free to wander through the house unsupervised during this time. Refer pp. 118-119 Linda Arndt's deposition, ]
Click to expand...

Free to wander through the house unsupervised. but not in Jonbenet's room, I presume, because it was at that time the "crime scene". At first the cops were treating it as a kidnapping and so Jonbenet's bedroom was presumed to be the place she was taken from and her bedroom was secured as the crime scene. Is that right?

But to lose right to Ramsey from 10:40 till noon - my goodness, what slack policing! The ransom note instantly makes JR a suspect; he shouldn't have been free to wander the house unsupervised possibly contaminating evidence etc.

Anyway. So the known events were:

1. Patsy rings 911.
2. Cops arrive ten or so minutes later.
3. Half of Boulder arrives at the Ramsey's invitation.
4. They wait for the phone call.
5. At 10:40 after no phone call JR wanders off in the house.
6. At noon he has mail in his hand.
7. At 1pm ish they organise a search of the house.
8. Just after 1 pm JR and some neighbours discover the body.

I seem to have read a report that said someone had already looked in the winecellar and said there was no body in there earlier in the day. So it becomes crucial what JR did from 10:40 to 1pm. And another report said he went down to the basement that morning. Can someone confirm those reports for me? As I say, there is a swamp of misinformation and it is very hard to find facts.

Who delivers mail on Dec 26th?
 
Plenum7 said:
Free to wander through the house unsupervised. but not in Jonbenet's room, I presume, because it was at that time the "crime scene". At first the cops were treating it as a kidnapping and so Jonbenet's bedroom was presumed to be the place she was taken from and her bedroom was secured as the crime scene. Is that right?

But to lose right to Ramsey from 10:40 till noon - my goodness, what slack policing! The ransom note instantly makes JR a suspect; he shouldn't have been free to wander the house unsupervised possibly contaminating evidence etc.

Anyway. So the known events were:

1. Patsy rings 911.
2. Cops arrive ten or so minutes later.
3. Half of Boulder arrives at the Ramsey's invitation.
4. They wait for the phone call.
5. At 10:40 after no phone call JR wanders off in the house.
6. At noon he has mail in his hand.
7. At 1pm ish they organise a search of the house.
8. Just after 1 pm JR and some neighbours discover the body.

I seem to have read a report that said someone had already looked in the winecellar and said there was no body in there earlier in the day. So it becomes crucial what JR did from 10:40 to 1pm. And another report said he went down to the basement that morning. Can someone confirm those reports for me? As I say, there is a swamp of misinformation and it is very hard to find facts.
Who delivers mail on Dec 26th?
Click to expand...
I was wondering if the mail gets delivered in the USA on 26th December because it sure doesn't here in Australia! The following link has a great synopsis of the whole case (especially interesting is the imeline of events on and around 26th December)
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Brief%20Chronology
The following link also provides a not so brief, but extremely interesting review of the events
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2293&goto=nextoldest
 
Plenum7 said:
What is Patsy's explanation for that?
Click to expand...
It's in DOI (Death of Innocence)

I forget right now, but know the Ram's did explain that, not that I believe too much of what they say ;)
 
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