Evidence that point away from the Ramsey's

The ONLY evidence that bothers me in this case and doesn’t point to the Ramsey’s is:

1.) The broken glass on top of the suitcase. I have a hard time imagining that either parent would be thinking straight enough to have staged that. The suitcase was said to have been stored under the stairs according to the Ramsey’s and if it had been left out under the window it would have had more dust and debris on it. (I would like to know if Linda Hoffman Pugh testified to this as well)
2.) The metal grating sound heard shortly after a child’s scream by Melodie Stanton (Again another person I would love to hear from) Originally she said perhaps she heard/felt JB’s energy, but later said it was indeed a child’s scream. Does anyone have her statement anywhere? I would like to re-read that. Again I have a hard time thinking that the parents ‘staged’ this sound. There has been speculation that perhaps Patsy tried to hide JB behind the freezer in the basement. But I wonder if that sound would have made it over to the Stanton house?

That’s it. The only things to me that don’t make sense.
The animal hairs found on JB IMO most likely came from Patsy’s boots, which mysteriously disappeared after the crime
The blue fibers I have always contended came from John’s golf bag. None of his clubs were found covered that morning and he owned expensive golf clubs. It also makes sense as to why he asked for them so soon after the murder (I would still like to know where John purchased those clubs and if investigators have tried matching those fibers to other known golf club covers?)
The Flashlight: again the Ramsey’s. Used by Patsy I believe to construct the ransom note and stage the body so neighbors wouldn’t have reported their lights on.
The pineapple and ransom note-dead giveaways that lead straight to Patsy
The knife used to cut the garrote-Burkes
The supposed stun gun marks. (even the manufacture discounted them and since the Ramsey refused to exhume JB’s body we will never know for certain)
The degraded DNA. Most likely has nothing to do with the crime.
The lone male hair: The Ramsey’s had hundreds of people parading through that home prior to the crime. Could have been from anyone of those people or from construction workers during their re-construction on the home.
The garrote handle: made from Patsy’s paintbrush
The tape and rope: I find it highly coincidental the tape was only sold in McGuckins Hardware store in Boulder and Patsy shopped their shortly before the crime and purchased items matching the same amount.
Red Jacket Fibers: Patsy’s

For those of you who have never been to the Ramsey home. What is depicted on TV is much different from what is known fact. First of all 15th street is situation off Baseline road and University. Both extremely busy streets. Boulder is FULL of vagrants, homeless and college kids that wander the streets day and night. And although this was Christmas time, the street the Ramsey’s lived on is a well traveled road. When I first saw it on TV I thought it was on a quiet cul-de-sac. The houses are also a lot closer than they appear on TV. I was amazed at how “dark” the house seemed. I wouldn’t want to live there. It doesn’t get much sun light. The foliage around the home is thick. LOTS of places to hide. It’s a lot closer to the street then depicted on TV as well. So I have NEVER argued the fact that an intruder could have very EASILY gotten into that home. As far as the difficulty maneuvering around the floor plan, that I have also dismissed as rubbish. Because anyone living in Colorado and especially Boulder know that ALL the old homes in the area are difficult to find your way around and have many “hidden” doors or pathways. This to me never suggested an intruder would have a hard time finding his way around, especially if he was from Boulder. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not leaning toward the intruder theory here. Just brining out the evidence which points away from the parents IMO. I would love to hear other’s thoughts or explanations and if anyone knows what happened to Melodie Stanton?

Does anyone have any other evidence that points away from the Ramsey's

Personally, I find it very difficult to find credible a neighbor who is not sure whether she heard an actual scream or felt energy. Sounds rather kooky.

Nedthan Johns said:

The ONLY evidence that bothers me in this case and doesn’t point to the Ramsey’s is:

1.) The broken glass on top of the suitcase. I have a hard time imagining that either parent would be thinking straight enough to have staged that. The suitcase was said to have been stored under the stairs according to the Ramsey’s and if it had been left out under the window it would have had more dust and debris on it. (I would like to know if Linda Hoffman Pugh testified to this as well)

Click to expand...

The window, the glass, and the suitcase have nothing to do with the murder of JonBenet. Remember that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes according to John Ramsey who said that he had to move these things before entering the train room when he first checked the basement on the morning of the 26th. Therefore the intruder COULD NOT have left the house through that window because he would not have been able to block the outside of the train room door from inside the room. It is possible that an intruder came in through the window and then, after exiting the train room, closed the door behind him and then piled the chair and boxes up against the door, but I cannot think of any logical reason for him to do that. He would have been blocking the only exit from the basement should someone have come down there while he was still in the basement. People have to eliminate the window and everything associated with it from their theories.

The window, the glass, and the suitcase have nothing to do with the murder of JonBenet. Remember that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes according to John Ramsey who said that he had to move these things before entering the train room when he first checked the basement on the morning of the 26th. Therefore the intruder COULD NOT have left the house through that window because he would not have been able to block the outside of the train room door from inside the room. It is possible that an intruder came in through the window and then, after exiting the train room, closed the door behind him and then piled the chair and boxes up against the door, but I cannot think of any logical reason for him to do that. He would have been blocking the only exit from the basement should someone have come down there while he was still in the basement. People have to eliminate the window and everything associated with it from their theories.

Cypros: I did not know that JR stated that room was blocked by boxes and a chair. If so this is interesting information Where was this stated?

Cypros said:

The window, the glass, and the suitcase have nothing to do with the murder of JonBenet. Remember that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes according to John Ramsey who said that he had to move these things before entering the train room when he first checked the basement on the morning of the 26th. Therefore the intruder COULD NOT have left the house through that window because he would not have been able to block the outside of the train room door from inside the room. It is possible that an intruder came in through the window and then, after exiting the train room, closed the door behind him and then piled the chair and boxes up against the door, but I cannot think of any logical reason for him to do that. He would have been blocking the only exit from the basement should someone have come down there while he was still in the basement. People have to eliminate the window and everything associated with it from their theories.

Click to expand...

I am also interested in a link to the statement made by John Ramsey, HIMSELF, that the door was blocked by a chair and boxes.

Cypros said:

The window, the glass, and the suitcase have nothing to do with the murder of JonBenet. Remember that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes according to John Ramsey who said that he had to move these things before entering the train room when he first checked the basement on the morning of the 26th. Therefore the intruder COULD NOT have left the house through that window because he would not have been able to block the outside of the train room door from inside the room. It is possible that an intruder came in through the window and then, after exiting the train room, closed the door behind him and then piled the chair and boxes up against the door, but I cannot think of any logical reason for him to do that. He would have been blocking the only exit from the basement should someone have come down there while he was still in the basement. People have to eliminate the window and everything associated with it from their theories.

Click to expand...

If the door opened into the train room instead of out into the basement, the intruder could have very well pulled these boxes in front of the open door then shut the door behind him, buying some time and blocking his escape route from others.

Nedthan Johns said:

The ONLY evidence that bothers me in this case and doesn’t point to the Ramsey’s is:

1.) The broken glass on top of the suitcase. I have a hard time imagining that either parent would be thinking straight enough to have staged that. The suitcase was said to have been stored under the stairs according to the Ramsey’s and if it had been left out under the window it would have had more dust and debris on it. (I would like to know if Linda Hoffman Pugh testified to this as well)
2.) The metal grating sound heard shortly after a child’s scream by Melodie Stanton (Again another person I would love to hear from) Originally she said perhaps she heard/felt JB’s energy, but later said it was indeed a child’s scream. Does anyone have her statement anywhere? I would like to re-read that. Again I have a hard time thinking that the parents ‘staged’ this sound. There has been speculation that perhaps Patsy tried to hide JB behind the freezer in the basement. But I wonder if that sound would have made it over to the Stanton house?

Click to expand...

1) The broken chunk of glass was found by Fleet White, attested to by John Ramsey himself, and it was put on the windowledge, not the suitcase. The suitcase was also moved under the window by Fleet White who admitted doing so when he and JR crawled around on the floor looking for pieces of glass. JR even states in his '98 interview that he believed that piece of glass was from when HE broke that window to get into the house a few months before when he locked himself out.

2) There were metal paint cans in the wine cellar and the floor was made of concrete... there's your metal-on-concrete noise.

magnolia said:

I am also interested in a link to the statement made by John Ramsey, HIMSELF, that the door was blocked by a chair and boxes.

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John Ramsey said so in his '98 interview. I suggest that you read it. I suggest you read all the interviews. I suggust everyone interested in this case read the interviews.

OceanEyes said:

If the door opened into the train room instead of out into the basement, the intruder could have very well pulled these boxes in front of the open door then shut the door behind him, buying some time and blocking his escape route from others.

Click to expand...

The chair was on the OPPOSITE side of the door from where there was any way to get out of the basement without going up to the next floor. There is no way an intruder could have put that chair there without somehow magically putting his arms through a closed door. This is discussed in John Ramsey's '98 interview.

PagingDrDetect said:

1) The broken chunk of glass was found by Fleet White, attested to by John Ramsey himself, and it was put on the windowledge, not the suitcase. The suitcase was also moved under the window by Fleet White who admitted doing so when he and JR crawled around on the floor looking for pieces of glass. JR even states in his '98 interview that he believed that piece of glass was from when HE broke that window to get into the house a few months before when he locked himself out.

2) There were metal paint cans in the wine cellar and the floor was made of concrete... there's your metal-on-concrete noise.


John Ramsey said so in his '98 interview. I suggest that you read it. I suggest you read all the interviews. I suggust everyone interested in this case read the interviews.


The chair was on the OPPOSITE side of the door from where there was any way to get out of the basement without going up to the next floor. There is no way an intruder could have put that chair there without somehow magically putting his arms through a closed door. This is discussed in John Ramsey's '98 interview.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info DrDetect.

Cypros said:

The window, the glass, and the suitcase have nothing to do with the murder of JonBenet. Remember that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes according to John Ramsey who said that he had to move these things before entering the train room when he first checked the basement on the morning of the 26th. Therefore the intruder COULD NOT have left the house through that window because he would not have been able to block the outside of the train room door from inside the room. It is possible that an intruder came in through the window and then, after exiting the train room, closed the door behind him and then piled the chair and boxes up against the door, but I cannot think of any logical reason for him to do that. He would have been blocking the only exit from the basement should someone have come down there while he was still in the basement. People have to eliminate the window and everything associated with it from their theories.

Click to expand...

Why should we take JR's word for it? We don't know the door was blocked, it's just JR telling us it was.

So the crime scene photos were taken after Fleet White was in the basement and touched and moved the suitcase? I have never read this. Lou Smit uses the photo of the suitcase under the window in his presentation of how the killer got in and out. He believes the killer moved it there to boost himself up to get out. Also Smit shows the piece of glass on the suitcase circled in an enlargement of the suitcase. Is that just all error and misinterpretation on his part?

Do you have a link for the testimony about the suitcase being moved by fleet
white?

Also, the crime scene photo of the door to the windowless room shows nothing blocking the door. Was this photo taken after John Ramsey was in the basement moving things around? I don't understand, since John said he went to the room, opened the door and found the body. The door would have been left open after he found the body. How could the crime scene photo have been taken right after John moved the furniture and before he unlatched the top and opened the door and went in? I do not follow the sequence of events. It does not make sense.

http://www.acandyrose.com/

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

JUNE 23RD, 1998

24 LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you
25 ever go down to the basement?
0152
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
2 LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had
4 gone down the basement. I went in the --
5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a
6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went
8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a
10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old
11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,
12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe
13 that far.

Thanks Wolfpack. I was going to have to do some searching to find that. There was a whole thread on this subject about a month ago. I will ty to find it again.

Here it is!!
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41292&highlight=basement+chair

Chrishope said:

Why should we take JR's word for it? We don't know the door was blocked, it's just JR telling us it was.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree that we do not need to accept everything JR says as truth. However, this statement by him doesn't help HIM at all. In fact it works against him in that it eliminates the only identified possibility for an exit/entrance for a random intruder.

OceanEyes said:

If the door opened into the train room instead of out into the basement, the intruder could have very well pulled these boxes in front of the open door then shut the door behind him, buying some time and blocking his escape route from others.

Click to expand...

This is a very good point and I have no idea which way the door opened. However, in the quote posted by Wolkpack, John talks about the things blocking the door as something that was familiar to him. He was not surprised to come across these things blocking the door. It seems that the blockage was already there before Christmas (maybe related to Christmas). In that case and assuming that the door opened inward as you say, an intruder came through the window, opened the door to leave the train room and found it blocked. He moved some things away, and went on with the horrible act of killing and molesting JB. Then, he goes back into the train room and before escaping from a murder scene he stops to put the boxes and stuff back in front of the door, closes the door and crawls out through a tiny window. It IS possible, but not very logical. I can't think of any good reason to take time to reblock the door.

For those of you who have never been to the Ramsey home. What is depicted on TV is much different from what is known fact. First of all 15th street is situation off Baseline road and University. Both extremely busy streets. Boulder is FULL of vagrants, homeless and college kids that wander the streets day and night. And although this was Christmas time, the street the Ramsey’s lived on is a well traveled road. When I first saw it on TV I thought it was on a quiet cul-de-sac. The houses are also a lot closer than they appear on TV. I was amazed at how “dark” the house seemed. I wouldn’t want to live there. It doesn’t get much sun light.


Nedthan Johns,

Are there any pictures of the house on the Internet that you know of that are more accurate than the ones we see on the TV clips all the time? I have read several other times that the house is so different in person and it has me quite curious. No TV show ever does anything like drive down the street so you can see the close proximity of the other houses...just that same old clip with the candy canes.

PagingDrDetec:

) The broken chunk of glass was found by Fleet White, attested to by John Ramsey himself, and it was put on the windowledge, not the suitcase. The suitcase was also moved under the window by Fleet White who admitted doing so when he and JR crawled around on the floor looking for pieces of glass. JR even states in his '98 interview that he believed that piece of glass was from when HE broke that window to get into the house a few months before when he locked himself out.

Ned: That’s not the glass I am talking about. I am talking about the tiny piece of glass photographed on top of the suit case that Lou Smit believed was left by the intruder’s shoe as he stepped on it and out the window. I have seen the crime scene photos and that IS glass on top of the suitcase. How did it get there?


2) There were metal paint cans in the wine cellar and the floor was made of concrete... there's your metal-on-concrete noise.

Ned: Not very likely that sound made it all the way next door unless those cans were by the vent in the boiler room, I believe the paint cans were in the windowless room.

Aspidistra: So the crime scene photos were taken after Fleet White was in the basement and touched and moved the suitcase? I have never read this. Lou Smit uses the photo of the suitcase under the window in his presentation of how the killer got in and out. He believes the killer moved it there to boost himself up to get out. Also Smit shows the piece of glass on the suitcase circled in an enlargement of the suitcase. Is that just all error and misinterpretation on his part?

Ned: True the crime scene photos were taken AFTER Fleet White moved the suitcase because at that time it wasn’t considered a crime scene. Also note the suitcase wasn’t horizontal to the wall as shown in the crime scene. John moved it that way. Was he smart and level headed enough to stage the glass on top of the suitcase?

Aspid: Also, the crime scene photo of the door to the windowless room shows nothing blocking the door. Was this photo taken after John Ramsey was in the basement moving things around? I don't understand, since John said he went to the room, opened the door and found the body. The door would have been left open after he found the body. How could the crime scene photo have been taken right after John moved the furniture and before he unlatched the top and opened the door and went in? I do not follow the sequence of events. It does not make sense.

I believe we are talking about the train room door where the window to the outside is found

Wolfpack: Excellent, thank you.

JUNE 23RD, 1998

24 LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you
25 ever go down to the basement?
0152
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
2 LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had
4 gone down the basement. I went in the --
5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a
6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went
8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a
10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old
11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,
12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe
13 that far.

Ned: This is interesting because this sounds like the time John went into the basement alone after his initial search with Fleet. If so, then WHY didn’t they check that train room the first time? A chair blocked the door? In his own words, the door was kind of blocked. How does Lou explain this?

So John Ramsey reveals for the first time that he had snuck away from the group upstairs, gone to the basement alone, found the basement window open about 1/8 of an inch, closed it, latched it, and then went back upstairs and told no one about it.

Thanks for that link regarding the discussion on the basement. Now really folks why in the world if you found an OPEN window in your home after searching for your daughter, would you CLOSE it but say nothing to the police officer upstairs when supposedly at that time your daughter was STILL missing? You would have to be a complete idiot. You know I had forgotten all this and it still baffles the HELL out of me why the Ramsey’s weren’t immediately arrested and charged for this crime.

From BlueCrabs postings:

But Officer Rick French had searched the basement at about 6:05 AM looking for a point of entry and making sure an intruder wasn't hiding down there. He found neither. French did not report anything about an open basement window, even though that's the very thing he was looking for, and there are only three windows in the basement.

Then, around 6:20 AM Fleet White searched the basement looking for JonBenet and calling out her name as he searched. Fleet found the broken basement window and inspected it, but did not report anything about the window being open.

IOW, Rick French and Fleet White had both inspected the window prior to John Ramsey and neither reported the window open. In fact, it seemed to have surprised John to find out that Fleet had also been in the basement early that morning -- thus putting Fleet in a position to refute John's open basement window story.

Therefore, it appears that John was lying about finding the window open at 10 AM (or at any other time) and had fabricated a fictional open window to accomodate a fictional intruder.

Hey where is BlueCrab I miss that poster!

I find it HIGHLY unbelievable that a police officer would MISS an open window in a basement with only 3 when he is specifically looking for a point of entry.