672 users online (87 members and 585 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    251

    For IDI's: What is the Evidence of an Intruder?

    Straight up for the IDI's out there...I am curious to know what is the evidence you see for an intruder having committed the murder in the Ramsey case, and that which exonerates the Ramseys.

    I ask this because when I try to look at the case objectively, that is, looking from both RDI and IDI theoretical sides, I come up rather empty when it comes to intruder evidence.

    It seems like much that is considered "official intruder evidence", the evidence that was presented at the Ramsey civil trial I believe, doesn't hold up very well at all.
    A major Achilles heel is the basement window itself as a POE...I don't believe anyone went in or out of it...the evidence doesn't appear to support it.

    It just seems to me when it comes to RDI there's a lot to work with...while with IDI...there isn't.
    So...I'd like to hear.
    Also, in terms of IDI...what was the crime supposed to be? A botched kidnapping? A planned murder? Something else?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,475
    Good questions SS, I have no idea what the answers are. Hopefully someone who really believes an intruder did it will present actual evidence instead of speculation to support their position.

    There has never been a civil trial. All the lawsuits were settled or dismissed.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,399
    I've asked this same question before and would love to hear the answer.

    The civil trial would the one with the infamous Judge Carnes presiding? The one where she made a decision that the evidence supported an intruder, without seeing some 40,000 pages of police documentation.

    The evidence she was shown supporting the intruder theory, things like the palm print, has pretty much been shot down and explained by now.

    I'm still wondering where the forensic evidence of anyone other than Ramsey being that house that night is.
    Where is Trenton Duckett?

  4. #4
    IrishMist's Avatar
    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Southeastern Tennessee
    Posts
    7,469
    Well, SS, I'm not an IDI, I'm a FS. (fence sitter) Or maybe a TCMMSCIJCD'er.
    (This Case Makes Me So Crazy, I Just Can't Decide 'er)

    I have a tendancy to see both sides of this. Kinda like Newton's third law...

    But I'll take a shot at your question.

    When I start on the IDI thinking, it mainly lies in feelings, not so much in evidence. There is the DNA-X, that's always in the back of my mind.

    The fibers that are consistant with the Ramsey's could also be consistant with an intruder. We just don't know as much about the fibers as I'd like.

    There was a baseball bat found outside with a fiber consistant with the basement carpeting on it.

    Mostly, I can't see these people killing JonBenét. Especially on Christmas night. I do understand what people are saying when they talk about how grateful you are for each day after you've gone through what Patsy went through. That's not evidence, though, is it?

    I do believe someone told JonBenét she'd be getting a special visit, and that it was secret. Could that person have done it? I know, that's not evidence either.

    I don't think an intruder used the window.
    I don't think an intruder used a stun gun.

    I do think JonBenét knew him/her/them.

    I can't for the life of me figure out how an intruder could take the time necessary and:
    1. not get caught
    2. not leave more forensic evidence.

    See? I stink at being an IDI. I have to end on a doubtful note. But to be fair, if I was trying for RDI, I'd have to end on a doubtful note, too.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,878
    When I start on the IDI thinking, it mainly lies in feelings, not so much in evidence.
    That seems to be the basis for IDI :-)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    4,530
    Not all of it - I've left off, because there's not really any point to discussing this - but it's not so much the evidence of an intruder, because we've seen several other cases where intruders come through the house and leave no evidence of an intruder. So the lack of evidence doesn't mean IDI is not possible. But then, nor does any idea that parents couldn't do something like that - I know they could (just like all the serial killers who seemed like nice, quiet neighbors). The thing is that there is a lack of evidence, to me, for RDI. The DNA doesn't help any, and I find it unlikely (although possible) that the fingernail DNA that doesn't match the Ramseys came from someplace other than JBR's fingernails. Lacking anything that really says to me, "Her parents did it", and with a ridiculous amount of investigation energy and time focused totally on them that never found any hard evidence, I go with an intruder as being more likely.

    Option 1: RDI, without leaving anything at all that could be found by zealous and obsessed police investigators.
    Option 2: IDI, without leaving any evidence found by police who were not really looking for IDI evidence, and were willing to (and did!) ignore IDI leads.

    That's my view of the case.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    missouri
    Posts
    651
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the DNA that was found on both the panties and under the fingernails. Doesn't the DNA from both places match? If the DNA on the panties came from a factory worker, it could not end up under JonBenet's fingernails also. If JonBenet somehow innocently got DNA from someone under her fingernails it would not explain how it also got onto those panties.
    Also the shoe print, wasn't it able to show this was fresh due to the mold on the floor? If it had been older then mold would have been built up on it.

    Then there is the neighbor who says he heard what sounded like metal hitting right after the scream. That wouldn't make sense if everything was just being done inside the house.

    IMO if the Ramseys spent a good part of the night covering up the murder, they would not have the forsight to not have the house lit up. If suddenly my daughter was killed, on purpose or accidently, I would not immediatly think, oh I have to have lights shut off so no one can see me walking around inside while I think about what to do and stage a cover up. I would be in such a state of shock and disbelief there is no way I would start thinking clearly for many days. If I was a parent who found out my spouse or other child had just killed my daughter, you better believe there would be a lot of yelling going on inside that house. If neighbors heard a scream, they also would have later heard that kind of yelling, crying etc.

    There were to many keys to the house floating around, wasn't it their neighbors who had "lost" a key and given a second one. What happened to that first key, could it have been stolen and not just lost?
    Also it was to convenient that this happened on a night where the dog was not in the house, IMO that works better for an intruder who knew what was going on in the household, it would be a good night to get to JonBenet, especially when she was going to be gone the next day for a long trip!

    I don't believe whoever did kill her had that in mind when they came in, there was no planned kidnapping so no need to have a note written beforehand, something went very wrong and the injury to her head happened. I think they tried to cover that up by fixing her hair the way it was. Hiding her body and leaving the note gives the killer the idea the house will not be well searched and her body not found for some time, which did work for a while.

    If it was just the Ramsey's, they had no idea just how badly the police would bungle this investigation, why would they have called 911 when they did? They could have bought a lot more time, do a much more well thought out cover-up by not calling when they did. It could have easily been explained later by saying they were just following the orders on the RN, to afraid to call because "they" were watching!

    Yes I understand that seemingly good loving parents can kill, but there are enough things that are left unexplained that I just can't say the ones inside the house that night did it.

    OB
    this is just my opinion, it may be wrong, user beware!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,878
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Broad
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the DNA that was found on both the panties and under the fingernails. Doesn't the DNA from both places match? If the DNA on the panties came from a factory worker, it could not end up under JonBenet's fingernails also. If JonBenet somehow innocently got DNA from someone under her fingernails it would not explain how it also got onto those panties.
    Also the shoe print, wasn't it able to show this was fresh due to the mold on the floor? If it had been older then mold would have been built up on it.

    Then there is the neighbor who says he heard what sounded like metal hitting right after the scream. That wouldn't make sense if everything was just being done inside the house.

    IMO if the Ramseys spent a good part of the night covering up the murder, they would not have the forsight to not have the house lit up. If suddenly my daughter was killed, on purpose or accidently, I would not immediatly think, oh I have to have lights shut off so no one can see me walking around inside while I think about what to do and stage a cover up. I would be in such a state of shock and disbelief there is no way I would start thinking clearly for many days. If I was a parent who found out my spouse or other child had just killed my daughter, you better believe there would be a lot of yelling going on inside that house. If neighbors heard a scream, they also would have later heard that kind of yelling, crying etc.

    There were to many keys to the house floating around, wasn't it their neighbors who had "lost" a key and given a second one. What happened to that first key, could it have been stolen and not just lost?
    Also it was to convenient that this happened on a night where the dog was not in the house, IMO that works better for an intruder who knew what was going on in the household, it would be a good night to get to JonBenet, especially when she was going to be gone the next day for a long trip!

    I don't believe whoever did kill her had that in mind when they came in, there was no planned kidnapping so no need to have a note written beforehand, something went very wrong and the injury to her head happened. I think they tried to cover that up by fixing her hair the way it was. Hiding her body and leaving the note gives the killer the idea the house will not be well searched and her body not found for some time, which did work for a while.

    If it was just the Ramsey's, they had no idea just how badly the police would bungle this investigation, why would they have called 911 when they did? They could have bought a lot more time, do a much more well thought out cover-up by not calling when they did. It could have easily been explained later by saying they were just following the orders on the RN, to afraid to call because "they" were watching!

    Yes I understand that seemingly good loving parents can kill, but there are enough things that are left unexplained that I just can't say the ones inside the house that night did it.

    OB
    See the "Separating Fact from Fiction" thread. It's a sticky, near the top. In there it says it hasn't been established that the panty DNA and fingernail DNA match.

    The neighbor who "heard" the scream wasn't sure if it was a scream or JBR's "energy" - whatever that means. She settled on a scream, perhaps because that sounded saner than sensing her energy. The metal on concrete sound is a description - not a fact. Lots of sounds can be misinterpreted. I won't go into all the stuff about the grate because it's covered elsewhere, but I will say that no one went through that window.

    Your point about the lights is interesting. We know the lights were on briefly around midnight (I think that right) but otherwise they weren't on all night. If an event with JBR had caused PR to go into a rage, it seems like lights would have been turned on. The fact that they were mostly off all night suggests that they didn't want neighbors to know they were up.

    Same with the yelling - no yelling because they both knew what happened, and how, and were in on it.

    Seems to me the dog being gone was equally convienient for the Rs - especially with respect to concocting an intruder theory.

    I don't buy the idea that an intruder would think the note would really buy any time. It did here, but it's just a fluke that FW and the cops did a lousy search - or it could be the body wasn't in the wine room when they searched, and JR put it there when he was down the basement out of supervision of the police. Why would an intruder who had accidently killed her bother with any staging or with a note? It just wastes time that one could use to get out of there and far away.

    The Rs had to call 911, or as an alternative, they'd have had to call their pilot and make up an excuse for not flying to Michigan - which would have been pretty easy to do. But calling 911, not to mention friends and neighbors contradicts the instructions in the note. If they were taking the note seriously, they'd have called the pilot, said they'd changed their mind, and then not called 911/neighbors.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,374
    OldBroad,as far as the R's going against the RN's instructions,that is quite understandable as far as calling the police--doubt any family would NOT call the police after leaning their daughter is supposedly kidnapped,no matter what the note says---that in and of itself does not imply guilt,but there are a million other things that do

  10. #10
    IrishMist's Avatar
    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Southeastern Tennessee
    Posts
    7,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Hamilton
    OldBroad,as far as the R's going against the RN's instructions,that is quite understandable as far as calling the police--doubt any family would NOT call the police after leaning their daughter is supposedly kidnapped,no matter what the note says---that in and of itself does not imply guilt,but there are a million other things that do
    But wouldn't you tell police about the warnings?? PR's explanation was that she didn't read the whole thing, but she knew how it was signed. My hinky meter starts going up at this point.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,374
    but of course--I was just commenting on one small point that oldbroad made on just one part of the RN regarding calling the police---that's why I commented "but a million other things do'--Obviously Patsy read the whole note

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,374
    and--lol btw I love that term "hinky meter"--its a funny but apt expression of suspicion--Mine usually go off imediately,like with this case,OJ's case,Blake'scase,and Peterson's

  13. #13
    IrishMist's Avatar
    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Southeastern Tennessee
    Posts
    7,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Hamilton
    and--lol btw I love that term "hinky meter"--its a funny but apt expression of suspicion--Mine usually go off imediately,like with this case,OJ's case,Blake'scase,and Peterson's
    I like that term, too, but alas, I can't take credit for it. I've picked it up from here somewhere along the way.

    But, yeah, with OJ, Blake, Peterson... the Ramsey case has put mine on overload for a long time now!

  14. #14
    According to Lin Wood, the most importand evidence pointing to an intruder:

    Wood said the two most important pieces of evidence in the case are unidentified male DNA found in the girl's underwear and the handwritten ransom note, whose author has never been determined.
    http://www.courttv.com/archive/news/.../benet_ap.html

  15. #15
    IrishMist's Avatar
    IrishMist is offline You can't control the wind - but you can adjust your sails
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Southeastern Tennessee
    Posts
    7,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolynna
    According to Lin Wood, the most importand evidence pointing to an intruder:



    http://www.courttv.com/archive/news/.../benet_ap.html
    I'm a fence sitter. But there's no way I'm gonna take Lin Wood's opinion on ANYTHING in this case seriously. Nopey nope, as Camper would say.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 138
    Last Post: 11-01-2013, 09:41 PM
  2. Scent Evidence ... Reliable Evidence Or Junk Science?
    By Wudge in forum General Information & Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-13-2009, 11:55 AM
  3. Trace Evidence and the Intruder Theory
    By Omega in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 08-04-2006, 12:50 PM
  4. Evidence Of An Intruder
    By Fran Bancroft in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 11-08-2004, 08:54 AM