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Thread: Semen Stains on JBR's Bed and Carpet

  1. #1
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    Semen Stains on JBR's Bed and Carpet

    Hey everyone,

    I recently re-read Steve Thomas's book, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, and something stood out to me. On page, 48, Thomas writes:

    "...(The police) were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic."

    Am I reading this correctly? It seems to indicate that there were semen stains on JBR's bed and carpet and that is not information I have ever heard before. It was not followed up in the book.

    Did the ultraviolet light pick up stains that were not semen - but urine? I'm just confused and I feel like I must be reading this incorrectly - surely semen stains on JBR's bed and carpet would be a noteworthy piece of evidence, even though I understand that others often used her bed.

    Does anybody have any other information regarding this?

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    Page Number Handy? Paperback?

    I remember reading about JAR's semen being found on his blanket in the suitcase in the basement, but not anything about JonBenet's bed, will look again. I just took my books down from the shelf since someone gave pg numbers in PMPT about Camper's boatman. I must have read it but don't remember, same as this about JBR's mattress. On her carpet too? I just noticed that looking at the index page and thought I'd edit it into this. I don't remember reading all that in ST at all.

    We knew all along that the informant wasn't always reliable, but that isn't the point. Just having someone, even an inventive informant, making up stuff so far from Boulder, in the area where Jimmy Hoffa disappeared, to me is rather interesting, unusual for guys. And if the story at the pro-Ramsey forum is true that a loiterer at Charlevoix hung around the gas station badmouthing JR before the murder, who could have been the same one that housekeepers said slept in JonBenet's bed, he may have been a person of interest. Goes to show some ill will things were going on, widespread, besides the parents. A college art student also had to be ordered to take his picture of JonBenet down. And there could be so many more things like that we'll never know. As in most murder investigations, we probably didn't even get 10% and don't remember most of that.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle1
    ...And there could be so many more things like that we'll never know. As in most murder investigations, we probably didn't even get 10% and don't remember most of that.
    You are so right about this.

    I too remember reading about JAR's semen on a blanket. This was just the first time I recall reading something that indicated semen might have been in her bedroom.

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    There has been more alleged culpatory evidence gathered here, and elsewhere, against the Ramseys, than on any other crime in the known Universe. With all of this alleged culpatory evidence, the Ramseys could have been convicted on each, and every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. It rapidly got to the point where there isn't any way to tell, what's true, and what isn't.

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    That's why there is a 'Seperating fact from Fiction' thread, page 1.

    I've never heard of the semen stains in JBR's room, besides that sentence in Thomas's book either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    That's why there is a 'Seperating fact from Fiction' thread, page 1.

    I've never heard of the semen stains in JBR's room, besides that sentence in Thomas's book either.
    Obviously the alleged semen stains didn't pan out or I suspect we would have heard more about. I've never heard another reference to it either.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzm1
    There has been more alleged culpatory evidence gathered here, and elsewhere, against the Ramseys, than on any other crime in the known Universe. With all of this alleged culpatory evidence, the Ramseys could have been convicted on each, and every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. It rapidly got to the point where there isn't any way to tell, what's true, and what isn't.
    Right on Buzz.

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    Anyone Know a Page Number? Approximate?

    Narlacat, you did read it? Know what page?

    I don't remember seeing this in ST or any book but know I could very well be wrong.

    One of JAR's friends said he'd slept in JBR's bed, probably meaning the other twin bed, because JAR's room must not have had twin beds, and the house was old, probably had a male in that room before the R's bought it, but the semen was identified as definitely JAR's? Not fresh enough to have been a perp's?

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    I do not believe that there were any semen stains found other than on JAR's blanket in the suitcase in the basement. I don't think that's a particularly unusual find either.

    Of course there is DNA-x which we don't know much about. It was a DNA sample found later (if my memory serves me correct, it was 2001/2002 time). All we know about DNA-x is the following:-

    1. It wasn't found on her body or her clothes
    2. It didn't match Chris Wolf
    3. John and Patsy's DNA was compared to it

    We do not know:-

    1. The medium (i.e. saliva/blood/skin)
    2. Whether anyone matched it
    3. For sure if it is connected to the crime.
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




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  10. #10
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    "With all of this alleged culpatory evidence, the Ramseys could have been convicted on each, and every day of the week, and twice on Sunday."

    Couldn't have said it better myself!
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

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    >"...(The police) were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic."

    Am I reading this correctly? It seems to indicate that there were semen stains on JBR's bed and carpet and that is not information <


    Ultraviolet light will show stains other than semen. Urine and vomit I believe too. So it would not be a surprise to me to find stains show up under ultraviolet light in a child's bedroom especially a bedwetter. The ultraviolet light is only a tool to point to areas where further investigation is needed. It is not a determiner of what the stain is. This would require lab testing. So the fact that stains showed up in her room does not automatically point to them being anything in particular. You would have to read the lab results of any tests done on those spots to find out what they were.

    I've used one of these types of lights to find urine stains from a puppy on my carpeting and they show lots of spots that weren't urine. Saliva, places she had vomited etc.

    The fact that a mattress was wrapped in plastic isn't unusual in a child's room either. I had those on all my kids matresses. It's almost impossible to get pee or vomit out of one of those if they aren't covered with something waterproof.
    Sherlockmom

    You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to get to in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlockmom
    >"...(The police) were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic."

    Am I reading this correctly? It seems to indicate that there were semen stains on JBR's bed and carpet and that is not information <


    Ultraviolet light will show stains other than semen. Urine and vomit I believe too. So it would not be a surprise to me to find stains show up under ultraviolet light in a child's bedroom especially a bedwetter. The ultraviolet light is only a tool to point to areas where further investigation is needed. It is not a determiner of what the stain is. This would require lab testing. So the fact that stains showed up in her room does not automatically point to them being anything in particular. You would have to read the lab results of any tests done on those spots to find out what they were.

    I've used one of these types of lights to find urine stains from a puppy on my carpeting and they show lots of spots that weren't urine. Saliva, places she had vomited etc.

    The fact that a mattress was wrapped in plastic isn't unusual in a child's room either. I had those on all my kids matresses. It's almost impossible to get pee or vomit out of one of those if they aren't covered with something waterproof.
    Thanks Sherlock, Mom. That sentence now makes more sense to me. I am sure urine was found on her mattress.

  13. #13
    Speaking of finding JAR's suitcase and it's contents...did LE ever question JAR about the suitcase, duvet and Dr. Seuss book?
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzm1
    There has been more alleged culpatory evidence gathered here, and elsewhere, against the Ramseys, than on any other crime in the known Universe. With all of this alleged culpatory evidence, the Ramseys could have been convicted on each, and every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. It rapidly got to the point where there isn't any way to tell, what's true, and what isn't.
    IMO, they reaped what they sowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaMer
    IMO, they reaped what they sowed.

    Who, the Ramseys or LE/DA's office?

    Eve

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    Quote Originally Posted by eve
    Who, the Ramseys or LE/DA's office?

    Eve
    Ramseys of course! 4 months without cooperating, then 18 months later, enough said! Think Marc Klaas And many others whose children have gone missing or been murdered. The list could go on and on.

  17. #17
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    There this was salesperson demonstrating organic carpet cleaner, pet formula, for me and a free ultraviolet light came along with the product for identifying pet stains. So, as mentioned, I'm pretty sure that ultraviolet light itself could pick up a variety of bodily fluids.

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    Last night, Marc Klaas and Pat Brown were on "Nancy Grace." Marc mentioned how the Ramseys refused to take a polygraph and how that did them a huge disservice because if you take one and pass it, they move off of you very quickly.

    Pat followed up by saying that even when innocent parents hire private dicks or profilers, they don't want to seem like they are doubting the cops.

    But we know that in this case, the Ramseys did that SPECIFICALLY as a slap in the face to the cops.
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    I too am currently re-reading Steve Thomas' book. I'd forgotten how much information was in it. Some things were very interesting to read again knowing that Steve Thomas took the information directly from the fresh police reports:

    Regarding Burke: "Officer Rick French saw him being taken away, so he went over to talk to the boy. But John Ramsey intervened. The father told the policeman that Burke didn't know anything and had slept through it all, and he hustled the boy to a waiting vehicle. It was one of the poignant moments of the morning. His sister was thought to be the victim of a terrorist kidnapping, but Burke was exiled to the White's home, an unprotected location, where he would be watched over by friends instead of police.....I would later wonder why the parents had not awakened the boy immediately up on discovering that JonBenet was missing."

    No kidding. Like I've said before - it isn't just what the Ramsey's DID do that cast suspicion on them - but equally what they did NOT do.

    More..... (from the morning of the crime):

    "Detective Arndt asked Ramsey, White and Fernie for their opinions of the ransom note. White and Fernie commented that it seemed to reveal a familiarity with John Ramsey. The use of such words as hence and attache indicated the writer was educated. John Ramsey had little to say about it and was unusually quiet.

    "Detective Arndt could not account for John Ramsey until about noon.....Ramsey had been out of contact for over an hour.....Arndt noticed a marked change in Ramsey's attitude when she saw him again. Wheras he had been calm and collected earlier, he now sat alone in the dining room, preoccupied in thought, his leg bouncing nervously."

    When the body had just been discovered....

    "Patsy Ramsey was in the den with her friends, and when White shouted, Priscilla White and Barbara Fernie hurried toward the sound. Pasty did not move from the couch."

    "The detective and the father were face-to-face over the body, and he asked if his daughter was alive. When Arndt confirmed that she was dead, John Ramsey groaned softly. He told Arndt, "It has to be an inside job."

    This I'd forgotten about for some time and is just SO suspicious:

    "At the Ramsey house a detective overheard John Ramsey on the telephone at 1:40 telling his pilot to ready his plane for a flight to Atlanta." (This is just a half an hour after finding his little girl DEAD and murdered!!)

    One of the things that I think is a very important observation that the police noted in their reports is the LACK of interaction between Patsy and John that day and the next. Almost defies belief - that is unless you view it in light of one of THEM causing JonBenet's death..... Before "finding" the body...

    "While Ramsey's language was clear and articulate, and he even smiled and joked , his overwrought wife was in the care of Priscilla White and Barbara Fernie. She looked vacant and dazed, repeatedly asking in a soft, empty voice, "Why didn't I hear my baby?" Despite her obvious distress, her husband did not go to her." It was as if the house had separated into two camps, His and Hers, with the friends dividing their time between the two."

    Again on the odd lack of interaction between John and Patsy:

    When John and Patsy left the house at 2:15pm an hour after discovering JonBenet's body:

    "Patsy Ramsey, wearing a long fur coat, walked out sobbing uncontrollably and still leaning on her friends . She climbed into a car and was driven away. Her husband got into a van, and the coterie of family and friends relocated to the Fernie residence...."

    My comment on the above - Not only is it downright bizarre that John and Patsy would leave in SEPARATE vehicles just one hour after 'finding' their daughter DEAD, and "lean" on friends rather than each other, - but why, instead of RUSHING TO GET BURKE - and protect him, not to mention tell him about his sister's death before he hears it from someone else or the television - they have NO concern for him and speed off to a "friends" house!!!! Unbelievable. They had NO worry about some "kidnapper" or terrorist. They knew who had killed their daughter and they KNEW they were all safe.


    More.....

    "In most child murders, parents resist leaving the body."

    And.....

    "(FBI) Agent Ron Walker added, "Look at the parents. No bull***** that's where you need to be."

    And....

    From police reports' observation of the Ramsey's that night at the Fernie's - "Throughout the night of December 26 they watched John and Patsy alternately sleeping, roaming the halls, and just sitting around, seemingly lost to the world. The parents said little to each other..."

    "Once, a police officer overheard him (John Ramsey) cry softly, "I'm sorry....I'm so very sorry."

    "At about 9 pm John lay beside Patsy for about ten minutes but then got up and left her again. Nothing was said between them. "

    Patsy's two sisters Pam and Polly arrived and sat and read the Bible to Patsy.

    "One said she had a vision in which JonBenet was an angel. A police officer later noticed that the Bible verses dealt with forgiveness ."

    When Patsy asked her sisters to go get some things she needed from the house, "John was overheard to ask someone quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?"

    The night of December 27th Arndt and Sgt. Larry Mason attempted to speak with John Ramsey. John would not talk to them alone. He sat there with two lawyers. "Ramsey asked NO QUESTIONS about the murder, the autopsy, or how JonBenet was killed."

    One other interesting note in the book that I'd not picked up on before: "Bynum also said the pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, had determined that Burke Ramsey could not be interviewed by police." HUH???

    Just some interesting observations from Steve's book. That's all the further I am right now but gives so much to ponder.

    ~Angel~
    This post is my opinion.

  20. #20
    Excellent post Angel...the reason why Patsy called the Whites and Fernies over was to shield herself from John. No way would John say anything to Patsy with the friends present.

    One of the Victims Advocates assumed John and Patsy were divorced because they did not communicate with each other.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

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    [K777Angel]I too am currently re-reading Steve Thomas' book. I'd forgotten how much information was in it.
    Imo Steve Thomas' book is the best book on the Ramsey case.
    It contains crucial and essential info, which is presented in a straightforward way.
    Even if one doesn't take everything ST says as gospel (imo John Ramsey was far more involved in this than Thomas suggests), still it is a very compelling and convincing book.
    Whereas L. Schiller's book PMPT, interesting and fascinating as it is, always left me with a nagging feeling that the author, despite his claim to present the case in an objective light, merely wanted to be all things to all people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzm1
    There has been more alleged culpatory evidence gathered here, and elsewhere, against the Ramseys, than on any other crime in the known Universe. With all of this alleged culpatory evidence, the Ramseys could have been convicted on each, and every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. It rapidly got to the point where there isn't any way to tell, what's true, and what isn't.
    Which is why the Ramsey case is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in criminal history. The Ramseys should have been arrested on the spot as soon as JonBenet's dead body was discovered in their own home, i. e. when the alleged kidnapping story had turned out to to be a homicide. And a child's violent death in her own home with both parents being present in the home all the time would have been probable cause for an arrest.
    The Ramseys should have been taken to the police station immediately, questioned separately, and then locked in the contradictions of their differing statements.
    And I bet that at least Pasty would have broken down after being exposed to tough questioning for some time.
    But nobody held the Ramseys' feet to the fire - instead they were allowed to leave (I call it 'flee from') the crime scene, and the next time they talked to the police was after four months.
    The Ramseys profited from the professional incompetence of the initial investigators, and later from the cowardice of people like DA Hunter. That's why they got away with the crime.

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    excellent post!

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    "Which is why the Ramsey case is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in criminal history."

    More like an abortion!

    "The Ramseys profited from the professional incompetence of the initial investigators, and later from the cowardice of people like DA Hunter. That's why they got away with the crime."

    Sadly, I must agree.
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    Yes, And...

    Maybe there's a huge clue in the REASON both parents were having to take anti-ANXIETY and anti-depression meds BEFORE the murder. We don't really need to know for sure which ones, as many claims about that have been posted on other forums. I think the real question is WHY the meds to sleep.

    A tentative first theory about that until something better comes up, were they all having to submit to the large international pedophile ring which allegedly had just been busted in Boulder, but which probably didn't get them all, and those remaining were still in covert power?

    The R's still let their children sleep on the lower floor because why? Maybe they were in denial that anything would harm them because they were submitting, in order to have all the pageant wins and business success? The audacious-for-a-6 yr old attempted 911 call was covered for because FW feared the core figures in the ring, as did LE, and hastily made up the story about a sick mother which forums have debunked?

    Was it a Pam Griffin who said JBR had lost her innocence when the R's returned from a trip to Texas? Maybe that's when the abuse started?

    So IF it's true that a loiterer in Charlevoix was badmouthing the R's before the murder, and the walker seen by the Barnhills that late afternoon came to turn off the outside light, and that a sometimes-reliable informant in SE Mich knew about a boating accident attempt, they were all part of the ring???

    Just beating the bushes for any new clues we haven't discussed. Remember I'm one of the FS faction here, fence sitters, never have a fave theory.

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    I don't believe JonBenet called 911. That's not the typical response of a child in a house full of people she could turn to. Children that age don't think, someone is bothering me...I know, I'll call 911! They turn to the people who are in their immediate circle of relationships, and since that house was full of people that JonBenet knew very well, I'm going to assume she would have sought out someone there rather than think to call 911. Kids are taught that 911 is there for extreme emergency - someone is seriously injured, there's a fire, not someone touched me in a way I don't like.

    If I had to guess, I'd say calling 911 was a prank call done by kids who were off doing their own thing. When I was about 10, a friend told me if you call 911 at a pay phone and hang up, they'll call right back. I tried it, and guess what? They do!
    Where is Trenton Duckett?

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