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  1. #1
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    Abuse and JonBenet

    I was just reading another thread where Patsy is supposed to have said that JonBenet was better off dead. I've asked the Websleuth to tell me where she read this, but it also made me wonder about a couple of things.

    1) If Patsy did say it, she had to have been aware that JonBenet was being molested. I remember reading about the douches, yeast infections, bladder problems, etc.

    2) JonBenet must have been molested the day that the Ramsey's had their open house for Christmas. I believe that she was the one that tried to make the 911 call. Fleet White answered the door and told the police that a call was placed because he was worried about his mother's medicine? I think a decision was made at that point to kill JonBenet in order to silence her, and Fleet White and John took care of it Christmas night. Patsy did say that she went up to bed before John.

    3) John could have hired someone to commit the murder and left a door or window open for them to get in. He and Fleet concocted the ransom note while Patsy wrote it.

    4) Patsy tried to tell police that John was involved in the murder by mentioning his name over and over again in the ransom note.

    5) Fleet and John came to a disagreement at the funeral regarding the murder and cover-up. Remember how they both went to find the body?

    6) I can't get the picture of John Andrew Ramsey crying at JonBenet's grave out of my mind. It just makes me think that he knew what was going on and could have done something to stop it, but never did.

    7) Has John Ramsey's ex-wife ever commented on the case? Was she aware of any pedophilish behavior in her husband?

    Of course all the above are just my thoughts. Any comments?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    I was just reading another thread where Patsy is supposed to have said that JonBenet was better off dead. I've asked the Websleuth to tell me where she read this, but it also made me wonder about a couple of things.

    1) If Patsy did say it, she had to have been aware that JonBenet was being molested. I remember reading about the douches, yeast infections, bladder problems, etc.

    I responded to your question on another thread:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by calicocat
    Where did Patsy say that JB was better off dead?

    What I read was that she said words to the effect of: JBR will never have to go through finding out she has cancer and endure its treatments and she will never have to bury her own child....

    That is not indicitive of the fact that she knew JBR was bing molested, IMO.

    2) JonBenet must have been molested the day that the Ramsey's had their open house for Christmas. I believe that she was the one that tried to make the 911 call. Fleet White answered the door and told the police that a call was placed because he was worried about his mother's medicine? I think a decision was made at that point to kill JonBenet in order to silence her, and Fleet White and John took care of it Christmas night. Patsy did say that she went up to bed before John.

    From what I have read, the 911 call was explained as an 'accidental call' as if someone was calling 411 information and accidently dialed 911. Reguardless of the truth or fiction surrounding this 911 call, there is one single thing that I firmly believe to be true in this entire case and that is that Fleet White wanted justice for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. He acted as one would expect the father of a murdered child to behave. He approached JR in Atlanta at the gathering following his serving as pallbearer, and emphatically took his stand against John's behavior and inactions in the days immediately following JonBenet's murder. At the links thread at the top of this forum on JBR you will find a post by me which leads you to the letters Fleet White wrote requesting a special prosecutor in the case. He and Priscilla almost immediately distanced themselves from the Ramseys after the discovery of JBR's body. Fleet White pulled Linda Arndt over to the side to talk privately, explaining that he had been in the cellar earlier and had not seen JBR's body, yet John immediately found it upon opening the cellar door. I might be wrong about my opinions concerning a great deal about this case, but I will firmly stand my ground on my belief that Fleet White was/is a good and decent man and reacted in a manner in which we would have HOPED to have seen John Ramsey the father of JonBenet behave following the murder of his daughter.

    One more tiny thing, the "shelf-life" of this thread is probably very limited as I have witnessed the deletion of other threads inferring/discussing that Fleet White was less than honorable in this investigation/murder case.

    3) John could have hired someone to commit the murder and left a door or window open for them to get in. He and Fleet concocted the ransom note while Patsy wrote it.

    This is as unlikely as the possibility that McDonalds is sitting quietly on a recipe for No Calorie/No Fat Frenchfries which taste exactly like their regular ones.

    #1 there are too many people involved in this scenerio. One or more would have screwed up and let the proverbial cat out of the bag.


    4) Patsy tried to tell police that John was involved in the murder by mentioning his name over and over again in the ransom note.

    Maybe. I tend to think that whoever authored the note harbored great hostility for John Ramsey. I am very doubtful that even though the ransom note had elements of 'childishness' to it, that Patsy was capable of composing it. Actually, I think it may have been dictated by John himself and Patsy did the handwriting. I think the original began with "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey" and was dismissed by John because of his own subconscious guilt and dislike for himself at that moment. (but that is my dime store psychology...and just my opinion.)


    5) Fleet and John came to a disagreement at the funeral regarding the murder and cover-up. Remember how they both went to find the body?

    Linda Arndt the ONLY LE present at the time, instructed John Ramsey to go and look for any sign of anything anywhere in the house which signaled a disturbance or anything out of place, so to speak. She went on to tell him not to touch anything. Fleet White went along to help with this LE directed activity. Fleet was DISTURBED by what took place when John Ramsey found the body and after as well.

    6) I can't get the picture of John Andrew Ramsey crying at JonBenet's grave out of my mind. It just makes me think that he knew what was going on and could have done something to stop it, but never did.

    John Andrew may have exhibited the most 'normal' anticipated behavior of the entire R bunch, IMO.

    7) Has John Ramsey's ex-wife ever commented on the case? Was she aware of any pedophilish behavior in her husband?

    Never, that I have heard or read. You can bet your sweet last , that if she had JR would have been arrested and charged.

    Of course all the above are just my thoughts. Any comments?
    I respect your thoughts and opinions as I do anyone who offers theirs here after 10 years of Blunders in Boulder. My posts are just my thoughts and opinions as well. I started in 1996 believing that the parents couldn't have done this. I moved to being a fence sitter and then I watched and read more about the case... In the past two months I have reread everything I could get my hands on and am now solid in my opinion that the Rr's are not innocent. But that's just my opinion. We are each entitled to our own.
    Last edited by angelwngs; 09-17-2006 at 02:05 AM.

  3. #3
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    Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?
    ...the truth is never far behind, I've learned my lessons well...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?
    Of all the children murdered in this county every year, I have yet to figure out a motive that would make any sort of sense

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?
    That is the '64,000 dollar question'! In my opinion, (today...), I THINK it began as an "accidental and/or rage induced" blow to the head and proceeded into the most insanely elaborate, screwed-up cover-up in any murder case ever publicized.

    I desperately tried to create or find every plausable intruder theory that I felt could 'work' and could be accepted as believable. None were.

    The 'facts' of the case point to 'evidence' that implicate the R's, as do their inconsistancies in interviews and statements. Add that to their bizarre behavior and they are, IMO, 100% to blame for any and every individual being of the opinion that they were involved in the murder of their daughter, as well as in the cover-up which followed.
    Last edited by angelwngs; 09-17-2006 at 01:59 AM.

  6. #6
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    I don't think anyone "murdered" JonBenet Ramsey. Murder happens when someone INTENTIONALLY takes the life of someone else. That is their goal.
    A homicide is where someone "ends up" dead - but the person responsible for that death never "intended" it. It can result from negligence, accident or the indirect result of a beating or assault (WITHOUT the intent to kill).
    A drunk driver is a perfect example. He/she drives drunk, hits someone and they end up dead from the crash. No one intended for someone to die as a result of their drunk driving. But they chose to drive drunk.

    I think this was a sad case of familial homicide. Whoever lashed out at her in an impulsive rage (bashing her in the head) - did what most people do in that situation - covered it up. Staged the scene to answer the question, "How do I explain why she lay dead?"

    The staging was so over the top and overdone that the FBI said it was what they call "staging within staging."
    You might say the ransom note was a "ransom note within a ransom note within a ransom note." So overdone was it too.
    So very Patsy......

    ~Angel~
    This post is my opinion.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelwngs
    That is the '64,000 dollar question'! In my opinion, (today...), I THINK it began as an "accidental and/or rage induced" blow to the head and proceeded into the most insanely elaborate, screwed-up cover-up in any murder case ever publicized.

    I desperately tried to create or find every plausable intruder theory that I felt could 'work' and were could be accepted as believable. None were.

    The 'facts' of the case point to 'evidence' that implicate the R's, as do their inconsistancies in interviews and statements. Add that to their bizarre behavior and they are, IMO, 100% to blame for any and every individual being of the opinion that they were involved in the murder of their daughter, as well as in the cover-up which followed.
    I ditto that Angelwings. I still keep my eye open for any idea that might explain an intruder. All the real evidence so far just doesn't convince me there was an intruder.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by K777angel
    I don't think anyone "murdered" JonBenet Ramsey. Murder happens when someone INTENTIONALLY takes the life of someone else. That is their goal.
    A homicide is where someone "ends up" dead - but the person responsible for that death never "intended" it. It can result from negligence, accident or the indirect result of a beating or assault (WITHOUT the intent to kill).
    A drunk driver is a perfect example. He/she drives drunk, hits someone and they end up dead from the crash. No one intended for someone to die as a result of their drunk driving. But they chose to drive drunk.

    I think this was a sad case of familial homicide. Whoever lashed out at her in an impulsive rage (bashing her in the head) - did what most people do in that situation - covered it up. Staged the scene to answer the question, "How do I explain why she lay dead?"

    The staging was so over the top and overdone that the FBI said it was what they call "staging within staging."
    You might say the ransom note was a "ransom note within a ransom note within a ransom note." So overdone was it too.
    So very Patsy......

    ~Angel~
    If it was a homicide and not a murder then what was the garrote? (An act of staging which "accidently" killed her? I don't think so.)

    It may indeed have begun (with the accidental/rage induced bash to the head) as a homicide, but then it ended with an intentional strangulation turning it into a murder, IMO.

  9. #9
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    "(An act of staging which "accidently" killed her? I don't think so.)"

    If you didn't know the person wasn't dead. Like I said, this knot doesn't undo very easily.

    "Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?"

    How much time you got?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?
    Hi Calicocat. There is no substantial evidence whatsoever that an intruder came into that house. The window theory which is such bull is not worthy of consideration since the spider web was undisturbed and it was not redone by the spider since it was 9 degrees the next morning. No one came through that window. Fleet White did nothing. He moved that suitcase nearer to the window when he went downstairs to look for JB. Fleet White did not do this thing.

    Patsy RAmsey most likely did this thing in a rage and staged the scene to cover it up and John is aiding and abetting. I never believed that he molested her, BUT Rashomon, a knowledgeable poster on this case, has said that fibers from his shirt were found in the folds of JB's labia.

    Now, I hadn't heard that, but since it comes from Rash, I do not doubt it. So now I am starting to think that John is involved in some kind of molestation. What else can I think. There is evidence of prior abuse that some forsenic doctors swear by.

    I never believed that because I thought John would just not risk getting caught. I always believed S. Thomas' theory that the damage to JB was a kind of corporal punishment. Some punishment. Geez.

    The maid said she heard Patsy yelling at JB in the bathroom all the time and JB yelling and crying.

    I have to say this that I have a son and if I found myself yelling at him in the bathrrom on a regular basis, I would definitely seek some psychiatric help. That does not mean I did not discipline my son, I did. I just did not scream at him, and certainly not on a regular basis (there is something definitely wrong with that crap). And the fact that tlhis was going on regularly tells me that Patsy is very very capable of losing her extremely short temper especially if she were taking tranquilizers and I believe she was. She had to be. She had been through cancer. I know she had tranquilizers then and it is highly doubtful that she stopped. And from her CNN interview, she was taking quite a few.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace
    Hi Calicocat. There is no substantial evidence whatsoever that an intruder came into that house. The window theory which is such bull is not worthy of consideration since the spider web was undisturbed and it was not redone by the spider since it was 9 degrees the next morning. No one came through that window. Fleet White did nothing. He moved that suitcase nearer to the window when he went downstairs to look for JB. Fleet White did not do this thing.

    Patsy RAmsey most likely did this thing in a rage and staged the scene to cover it up and John is aiding and abetting. I never believed that he molested her, BUT Rashomon, a knowledgeable poster on this case, has said that fibers from his shirt were found in the folds of JB's labia.

    Now, I hadn't heard that, but since it comes from Rash, I do not doubt it. So now I am starting to think that John is involved in some kind of molestation. What else can I think. There is evidence of prior abuse that some forsenic doctors swear by.

    I never believed that because I thought John would just not risk getting caught. I always believed S. Thomas' theory that the damage to JB was a kind of corporal punishment. Some punishment. Geez.

    The maid said she heard Patsy yelling at JB in the bathroom all the time and JB yelling and crying.

    I have to say this that I have a son and if I found myself yelling at him in the bathrrom on a regular basis, I would definitely seek some psychiatric help. That does not mean I did not discipline my son, I did. I just did not scream at him, and certainly not on a regular basis (there is something definitely wrong with that crap). And the fact that tlhis was going on regularly tells me that Patsy is very very capable of losing her extremely short temper especially if she were taking tranquilizers and I believe she was. She had to be. She had been through cancer. I know she had tranquilizers then and it is highly doubtful that she stopped. And from her CNN interview, she was taking quite a few.
    Solace],

    So now I am starting to think that John is involved in some kind of molestation.
    The fibers found in JonBenet's genitalia matched fibers from John's expensive woolen shirt manufactured in israel.

    Although this links him to the crime-scene, its possible that the fibers are there because he was the person who wiped JonBenet down, but then you have to ask why was it important to do this?

    An interesting aspect is that the fibers that link both John and Patsy to the crime-scene originate from clothes each wore to the White's the previous evening, but it is only Patsy who wears the same clothes again, John elects for clean clothing and a shower!




    .

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    Solace],



    The fibers found in JonBenet's genitalia matched fibers from John's expensive woolen shirt manufactured in israel.

    Although this links him to the crime-scene, its possible that the fibers are there because he was the person who wiped JonBenet down, but then you have to ask why was it important to do this?

    An interesting aspect is that the fibers that link both John and Patsy to the crime-scene originate from clothes each wore to the White's the previous evening, but it is only Patsy who wears the same clothes again, John elects for clean clothing and a shower!
    .
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Patsy was questioned by LE at length about the regular family procedure of where dirty clothes were placed by family members.

    Isn't it possible that John threw his dirty shirt off in the bathroom on top of a towel or some other item that was indeed used to wipe down JBR? Or maybe in some sick sadistic move his actual dirty black shirt was used to wipe down JBR? When the LE asked for the items worn that night to the party, the R's sent TWO black shirts and a jacket of Patsy's. I think one of the shirts was without a collar and the other had a collar. You know darn well they knew which shirt he wore that night to the White's, especially if it had a collar or not. He knew which one the LE was asking for. Why send two? Anyway, these were sent long after the 26th, and after they were already in Atlanta, if I remember correctly. There would have been plenty of time for new items to have been purchased or for through cleaning to have taken place.
    Last edited by angelwngs; 09-17-2006 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    The fibers found in JonBenet's genitalia matched fibers from John's expensive woolen shirt manufactured in israel.

    Although this links him to the crime-scene, its possible that the fibers are there because he was the person who wiped JonBenet down, but then you have to ask why was it important to do this?

    An interesting aspect is that the fibers that link both John and Patsy to the crime-scene originate from clothes each wore to the White's the previous evening, but it is only Patsy who wears the same clothes again, John elects for clean clothing and a shower!
    I've been toying with the idea that ALL of the staging was done by Patsy, and she wiped down JBR's privates with JR's shirt on purpose... to force him to go along with her scheme of pointing toward an intruder. If JR wasn't involved in this and slept through it all, Patsy would not have had any guarantee that he wouldn't point the finger at her his own self. I wonder if that shirt was left with the body and JR found it when he found the body the FIRST time and realized the implications of that shirt. Was that shirt something he stuffed in the golf bag he wanted so badly? To try to hide the fact that his shirt was involved? Could this be part of the reason why he was so aggitated and angry looking and didn't tell LE he found the body the FIRST time or was ever in the basement alone at all before the body was officially "found"? Was he wondering if Patsy was trying to frame him? Could this be part of the reason why he wanted to fly the family out of there so badly? So he could corner Patsy in private and find out what she did and what she was planning to do in regard to HIM?

    I'm a bit on the fence as to how much JR was involved and when.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PagingDrDetect
    I've been toying with the idea that ALL of the staging was done by Patsy, and she wiped down JBR's privates with JR's shirt on purpose... to force him to go along with her scheme of pointing toward an intruder. If JR wasn't involved in this and slept through it all, Patsy would not have had any guarantee that he wouldn't point the finger at her his own self. I wonder if that shirt was left with the body and JR found it when he found the body the FIRST time and realized the implications of that shirt. Was that shirt something he stuffed in the golf bag he wanted so badly? To try to hide the fact that his shirt was involved? Could this be part of the reason why he was so aggitated and angry looking and didn't tell LE he found the body the FIRST time or was ever in the basement alone at all before the body was officially "found"? Was he wondering if Patsy was trying to frame him? Could this be part of the reason why he wanted to fly the family out of there so badly? So he could corner Patsy in private and find out what she did and what she was planning to do in regard to HIM?

    I'm a bit on the fence as to how much JR was involved and when.
    Good thoughts ! I hadn't thought of a lot of those things.
    I've always wondered about PR's comment that 'we didn't mean for this to happen'.The toileting rage scenerio is beleiveable to me,but if JR wasn't involved somehow,I think her comment might have been "I didn't mean to do this", or "I didn't mean for this to happen" instead.The WE comment sounds an alarm to me.It even sounds like something might have been planned,imo.Not murder, but something else.
    So along w/ the fibers found on JB,as well as his voice on the 911 call and the lies told then, I can't help but think he was involved somehow.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778
    Good thoughts ! I hadn't thought of a lot of those things.
    I've always wondered about PR's comment that 'we didn't mean for this to happen'.The toileting rage scenerio is beleiveable to me,but if JR wasn't involved somehow,I think her comment might have been "I didn't mean to do this", or "I didn't mean for this to happen" instead.The WE comment sounds an alarm to me.It even sounds like something might have been planned,imo.Not murder, but something else.
    So along w/ the fibers found on JB,as well as his voice on the 911 call and the lies told then, I can't help but think he was involved somehow.
    Yeah, that's why I'm on the fence. He had to have known SOMETHING by the time that 911 call was made. But I'm wondering how much did he really know and when did he really know it? I really think that before that 911 call was made, JR called his attorney or someone of influence, but I'm not sure how much he would have really known at that time... and maybe that was part of the reason for putting out an SOS before calling 911. From what I've learned of these people, I think all the way along each of them has been strictly acting to save their own individual rear ends... not each other and not for the family. It just so happens that to save their individual rears, they needed to act as a united front... but that didn't appear to happen that day, because even by the time they went to the Fernie's they still weren't acting as a united front.

    It's a puzzlement.

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