Strangulation Preferable To Head Wound?

So many questions....here's one them....

Assuming that JonBenet's skull fracture was due to a family altercation and assuming they (Patsy & John) thought she was dead as a result - why bother staging it as a strangulation? Why not stage it as an intruder, but have the already fatal head wound as the work of the intruder? Why would they figure strangulation would be preferable to a head wound?

It doesn't make sense to me as a response to family altercation caused head wound. Unless there was evidence of sexual abuse that may have come out in the autopsy report.

It may not have been apparent that the head wound was fatal - there was no bleeding from the scalp.

If she was strangled manually,then that's probably what the marks are on her neck in the autopsy photo.That had to be accounted for,imo.The thing is, the marks appear to be much worse than could have been caused by simply a ligature,imo.That was an awfully small rope in comparison to the apparent wounds on her neck.

How would you stage a head wound that doesnt show anyway? I can't think of any scenerio, rightoffhand.

lovebites said:

So many questions....here's one them....

Assuming that JonBenet's skull fracture was due to a family altercation and assuming they (Patsy & John) thought she was dead as a result - why bother staging it as a strangulation? Why not stage it as an intruder, but have the already fatal head wound as the work of the intruder? Why would they figure strangulation would be preferable to a head wound?

Click to expand...

To add the element of sexual sadism w/ garrote and paintbrush in vagina to cover/explain the previous "abuse".?,?.? (maybe)

lovebites said:

So many questions....here's one them....

Assuming that JonBenet's skull fracture was due to a family altercation and assuming they (Patsy & John) thought she was dead as a result - why bother staging it as a strangulation? Why not stage it as an intruder, but have the already fatal head wound as the work of the intruder? Why would they figure strangulation would be preferable to a head wound?

Click to expand...

lovebites,

Your question assumes two things 1. Her primary cause of death was her head injury 2. That her killer was aware of her head injury?

Coroner Meyer did not know about her head injury until he did an internal examination.

The answer to your question could be that her death was staged as an intruder homicide resulting from flashlight head bash, also incorporating a sexual assault?

This scenario was later revised, but not completed as per the barbie-gown, and the flashlight was removed and cleaned!

Also if you are going to have a corpse discovered in your house, and the initial cause of death is an accidental head bash, then why not leave it at that, since an accident is not the same as a murder!

The evidence suggests a family conspiracy to hide something!


.

angelwngs said:

To add the element of sexual sadism w/ garrote and paintbrush in vagina to cover/explain the previous "abuse".?,?.? (maybe)

Click to expand...

I'd say that's the likely one.

You all make good points. It still amazes me that such a horrendous head injury didn't result in a bloody gash, especially since head wounds are notoriously bloody. Does anyone know (from a medical standpoint), what the body's outward reaction would be to such a severe wound? ie: convulsing, knocked out cold, gurgling............?

lovebites said:

You all make good points. It still amazes me that such a horrendous head injury didn't result in a bloody gash, especially since head wounds are notoriously bloody. Does anyone know (from a medical standpoint), what the body's outward reaction would be to such a severe wound? ie: convulsing, knocked out cold, gurgling............?

Click to expand...

My mother-in-law was visiting her daughter. According to my sister-in-law, my M-I-L had a horrible headache and fell hitting her head. She had no gash. Doctors and nurses throughly questioned everyone in the home at the time of the incident. They felt they needed to rule out foul-play. We were told that after hitting her head, my M-I-L was out cold. No vomiting, gurgling, convulsions... The entire event rattled me as the doctors/nurses were very outspoken in saying that it is very unusual to see this kind of injury to the head that is not a result of foul-play. M-I-L died within the week. I still find the events of her death very unsettling. If it had been my own mother, I would have taken charge of the situation and insisted on an investigation, (but I was just an 'outlaw'. )

I am reposting something I posted on another thread as it is directly related to the subject here:

Perhaps Burke was responsible for the head injury, perhaps while playing doctor that night. PR and/or JR come to JBR's aid but she is unconscious. They hesitate to seek medical help because JBR has been sexually molested. They send Burke to bed and try to tend to JBR. She appears to be dead, and they now are concerned about Burke's reaction to killing his own sister. They decide to stage the whole thing about a kidnapping and strangulation to protect Burke -- not just from the LE but from himself! The idea was that he would be told that JBR was killed by an intruder and that her death had nothing to do with the accident earlier that night.

Is it possible that the Ramseys would go to such extremes as to strangle their own daughter (who they believed to already be dead) in order to protect their son from the lifelong guilt of killing his sister???

Cypros said:

I am reposting something I posted on another thread as it is directly related to the subject here:

Perhaps Burke was responsible for the head injury, perhaps while playing doctor that night. PR and/or JR come to JBR's aid but she is unconscious. They hesitate to seek medical help because JBR has been sexually molested. They send Burke to bed and try to tend to JBR. She appears to be dead, and they now are concerned about Burke's reaction to killing his own sister. They decide to stage the whole thing about a kidnapping and strangulation to protect Burke -- not just from the LE but from himself! The idea was that he would be told that JBR was killed by an intruder and that her death had nothing to do with the accident earlier that night.

Is it possible that the Ramseys would go to such extremes as to strangle their own daughter (who they believed to already be dead) in order to protect their son from the lifelong guilt of killing his sister???

Click to expand...

I just don't see anyone small and frail capable of wielding this massive blow to JBs head. I have seen more autopsy photos than I care to really think about but I do not think I have ever seen one quite like the photo of JBs skull. It is literally cracked open all the way from back to front... 8 inches+ like it was an eggshell. Whomever did this was tremendously powerful and determined. I think whomever it was gave it his ALL....ending her life. I do not think it was done by the flashlight, most flashlights have indented patterns on them that would have left their impression behind on the scalp. I think they took the weapon with them along with the duct tape, paintbrush piece etc.

I also find the markings on her neck consistent with the ligature or rope used. The blood under the skin will widen out from the actual depression of the rope and that is why it appears larger than the garrote and rope.

I think the asphyxia strangulation came first.......maybe too quickly for this killer and it infuriated him and frustrated him that he had all but killed her with the garrote. She no longer had a purpose so he got rid of her with a tremendous blow to her head. I think she was very close to death before the blow and that is why there is little blood found with the head wound itself.

I think this person was diabolical, perverted and evil and he will never be caught. Imo, this person has never been questioned by anyone.

IMO

Ocean

angelwngs said:

My mother-in-law was visiting her daughter. According to my sister-in-law, my M-I-L had a horrible headache and fell hitting her head. She had no gash. Doctors and nurses throughly questioned everyone in the home at the time of the incident. They felt they needed to rule out foul-play. We were told that after hitting her head, my M-I-L was out cold. No vomiting, gurgling, convulsions... The entire event rattled me as the doctors/nurses were very outspoken in saying that it is very unusual to see this kind of injury to the head that is not a result of foul-play. M-I-L died within the week. I still find the events of her death very unsettling. If it had been my own mother, I would have taken charge of the situation and insisted on an investigation, (but I was just an 'outlaw'. )

Click to expand...

Wow, angelwngs what an unusual situation to be involved in. It must have been jarring to hear the words "foul play" regarding someone in your family - like a trip into the twilight zone. I'm with you, if there was any doubt as to the cause of death of a loved one, I'd certainly want it investigated too.
Jeez, my Dad died of natural causes in his sleep and I wanted an autopsy! I was out-voted by the family also. They all figured "he's old, who cares what he died from......why bother?". Still pizzes me off.

Thanks for the info on the after effects of a serious head injury. Sounds very possible that a person could be (wrongly) presumed dead to an observer.

Cypros said:

I am reposting something I posted on another thread as it is directly related to the subject here:

Perhaps Burke was responsible for the head injury, perhaps while playing doctor that night. PR and/or JR come to JBR's aid but she is unconscious. They hesitate to seek medical help because JBR has been sexually molested. They send Burke to bed and try to tend to JBR. She appears to be dead, and they now are concerned about Burke's reaction to killing his own sister. They decide to stage the whole thing about a kidnapping and strangulation to protect Burke -- not just from the LE but from himself! The idea was that he would be told that JBR was killed by an intruder and that her death had nothing to do with the accident earlier that night.

Is it possible that the Ramseys would go to such extremes as to strangle their own daughter (who they believed to already be dead) in order to protect their son from the lifelong guilt of killing his sister???

Click to expand...

Of all the theories I've heard, and I've heard MANY, this one by far makes the most sense to me.

As per your question - IMO if the parents, faced with what they were convinced was a dead JonBenet at the hands of their (now) only remaining child together, they may be willing to do anything to protect him to assure not losing *him too* whether by law enforcement or suicide. After all, let's assume that most people aren't 100% certain as to what the legal punishment might be for a pre/teen in such a situation. I wouldn't have a clue.

oceanblueeyes said:

I just don't see anyone small and frail capable of wielding this massive blow to JBs head. I have seen more autopsy photos than I care to really think about but I do not think I have ever seen one quite like the photo of JBs skull. It is literally cracked open all the way from back to front... 8 inches+ like it was an eggshell. Whomever did this was tremendously powerful and determined. I think whomever it was gave it his ALL....ending her life. I do not think it was done by the flashlight, most flashlights have indented patterns on them that would have left their impression behind on the scalp. I think they took the weapon with them along with the duct tape, paintbrush piece etc.

I also find the markings on her neck consistent with the ligature or rope used. The blood under the skin will widen out from the actual depression of the rope and that is why it appears larger than the garrote and rope.

I think the asphyxia strangulation came first.......maybe too quickly for this killer and it infuriated him and frustrated him that he had all but killed her with the garrote. She no longer had a purpose so he got rid of her with a tremendous blow to her head. I think she was very close to death before the blow and that is why there is little blood found with the head wound itself.

I think this person was diabolical, perverted and evil and he will never be caught. Imo, this person has never been questioned by anyone.

IMO

Ocean

Click to expand...

I agree with your assessment regarding the head blow. I spent 19 years working in intensive care units and with my background, I feel certain that the skull fracture sustained by that poor child was clearly the result of a purposeful and tremendously forceful strike with a large blunt object. This was no accidental fall. This was not a "slip and fall against the bathtub" injury. This was not a "head hit the doorframe while being carried" injury. JonBenet's death was no accident. Someone purposefully murdered her in a forceful and deliberate manner. The person who murdered her had adult level strength and wanted her dead.

There's a lot of information out there that may or may not be true--Patsy's fibers entwined in the garotte knot, unrelated DNA here or there, blah, blah, blah. I know from personal experience (my friend's murder and the subsequent murder trial) that the information sent out into the public domain isn't necessarily accurate, even when delivered by sources close to the investigation. I suspect that some of the known "facts" in this case are distortions, elaborations, exaggerations and some downright myths and "urban legend". I don't really know what to believe. But I think the autopsy report can probably be taken at face value, and the 8" skull fracture is extremely telling. Eight inches! Anyone who knows anything about head trauma will tell you that 8 inches is an unbelievably large fracture and that the force necessary to create a fracture of that size is tremendous.

I don't know who killed JonBenet. Maybe it was Patsy, maybe it was John, maybe it was one of the Ramsey friends, maybe it was an intruder. One thing I do know is that whoever killed her, did it deliberately and with tremendous force and purpose.

"You all make good points. It still amazes me that such a horrendous head injury didn't result in a bloody gash, especially since head wounds are notoriously bloody."

It would depend on where it happened. You know, close to the arteries, like that?

"Does anyone know (from a medical standpoint), what the body's outward reaction would be to such a severe wound? ie: convulsing, knocked out cold, gurgling............?"

Head wounds are a funny thing. Some convulse, some vomit; My dad was a Marine in Vietnam. Once, his unit came upon a man who had been blow away with an AK round. Half his head was gone. The blood was congealed, so he'd been dead a while. He WASN'T dead! He lived for two more hours. In this case, it probably out her in shock.

"I do not think it was done by the flashlight, most flashlights have indented patterns on them that would have left their impression behind on the scalp."

Except her hair was done up elaborately. That could have something to do with it.

"I agree with your assessment regarding the head blow. I spent 19 years working in intensive care units and with my background, I feel certain that the skull fracture sustained by that poor child was clearly the result of a purposeful and tremendously forceful strike with a large blunt object."

Forceful, yes. Intentional? I have to balk on that one.

"There's a lot of information out there that may or may not be true--Patsy's fibers entwined in the garotte knot, unrelated DNA here or there, blah, blah, blah."

Well, we know her fibers being there is true because she admitted it!

SuperDave said:

"You all make good points. It still amazes me that such a horrendous head injury didn't result in a bloody gash, especially since head wounds are notoriously bloody."

It would depend on where it happened. You know, close to the arteries, like that?

"Does anyone know (from a medical standpoint), what the body's outward reaction would be to such a severe wound? ie: convulsing, knocked out cold, gurgling............?"

Head wounds are a funny thing. Some convulse, some vomit; My dad was a Marine in Vietnam. Once, his unit came upon a man who had been blow away with an AK round. Half his head was gone. The blood was congealed, so he'd been dead a while. He WASN'T dead! He lived for two more hours. In this case, it probably out her in shock.

"I do not think it was done by the flashlight, most flashlights have indented patterns on them that would have left their impression behind on the scalp."

Except her hair was done up elaborately. That could have something to do with it.

"I agree with your assessment regarding the head blow. I spent 19 years working in intensive care units and with my background, I feel certain that the skull fracture sustained by that poor child was clearly the result of a purposeful and tremendously forceful strike with a large blunt object."

Forceful, yes. Intentional? I have to balk on that one.

"There's a lot of information out there that may or may not be true--Patsy's fibers entwined in the garotte knot, unrelated DNA here or there, blah, blah, blah."

Well, we know her fibers being there is true because she admitted it!

Click to expand...

\

SuperDave: The flashlight and batteries were wiped clean. Someone used the flashlight. I use to think it was the slipping against the bathtub theory. I don't anymore. I think she was intentionally hit with the flashlight.

What do you think?

SuperDave said:

"You all make good points. It still amazes me that such a horrendous head injury didn't result in a bloody gash, especially since head wounds are notoriously bloody."

It would depend on where it happened. You know, close to the arteries, like that?

"Does anyone know (from a medical standpoint), what the body's outward reaction would be to such a severe wound? ie: convulsing, knocked out cold, gurgling............?"

Head wounds are a funny thing. Some convulse, some vomit; My dad was a Marine in Vietnam. Once, his unit came upon a man who had been blow away with an AK round. Half his head was gone. The blood was congealed, so he'd been dead a while. He WASN'T dead! He lived for two more hours. In this case, it probably out her in shock.

"I do not think it was done by the flashlight, most flashlights have indented patterns on them that would have left their impression behind on the scalp."

Except her hair was done up elaborately. That could have something to do with it.

"I agree with your assessment regarding the head blow. I spent 19 years working in intensive care units and with my background, I feel certain that the skull fracture sustained by that poor child was clearly the result of a purposeful and tremendously forceful strike with a large blunt object."

Forceful, yes. Intentional? I have to balk on that one.

"There's a lot of information out there that may or may not be true--Patsy's fibers entwined in the garotte knot, unrelated DNA here or there, blah, blah, blah."

Well, we know her fibers being there is true because she admitted it!

Click to expand...

With that man whose head was half gone.....what an awful thing to watch his agony as he clung to life for those 2 hours. It would be more merciful to die instantly in a case like that. Gives me chills.

Someone here had suggested that perhaps the blow to the head may have occurred during a bath JonBenet and Burke may have been having together. Now, if a child stood up in the tub and (during play) the other child grabbed her feet and pulled them out from under her, she would come crashing down backward with some serious force - what if her head struck the faucet?

lovebites said:

With that man whose head was half gone.....what an awful thing to watch his agony as he clung to life for those 2 hours. It would be more merciful to die instantly in a case like that. Gives me chills.

Someone here had suggested that perhaps the blow to the head may have occurred during a bath JonBenet and Burke may have been having together. Now, if a child stood up in the tub and (during play) the other child grabbed her feet and pulled them out from under her, she would come crashing down backward with some serious force - what if her head struck the faucet?

Click to expand...

<<<That person would have been me...I often feel as if I accidently walked through a mysterious, magical mist before posting here that makes me invisible. Thank you for noticing my post. Your suggestion of hitting the head on the faucet is a good one in my opinion!

Solace said:

\

SuperDave: The flashlight and batteries were wiped clean. Someone used the flashlight. I use to think it was the slipping against the bathtub theory. I don't anymore. I think she was intentionally hit with the flashlight.

What do you think?

Click to expand...

Dr Lee thought so, too,on Court TV,if anyone saw that.And I recall reading that they tested many objects for that sort of blow and the flashlight was the only one that incurred that type of injury.
My bet is on the flashlight, and I don't think it was an accident, either.I don't know if it was planned in advance, but with the force used,I think someone wanted her dead.And I think that person was someone sexually abusing her.Perhaps JB was very close to or threatened to tell someone outside the home about it;and maybe the 911 call on the 23rd, the visits to the school nurse, as well as the repeated visits and frantic calls by PR to JB's Dr are proof of that.
And yes, after giving it a lot of thought,along with the fiber evidence found on her and the fact that JR distanced himself from so much that night and that morning,even saying he took melatonin to sleep..(and saying JB was fast asleep when they got home,denying the pineapple - JB HAD to have been up at some point,the robe-by saying he was in his underwear in DOI,asking for his golf bag-which could have contained such evidence as the shirt he was wearing that night,the flashlight that was found wiped down- I think I recall reading that one just like it was kept beside their bed..maybe it was the most convenient weapon at the time),yes,I think it was her DAD.

Why would PR go along with this?Maybe JR threatened her.Maybe she didn't want to lose the lifestyle she was accustomed to, and didn't want BR to lose his dad.It also would have been very embarrassing to her,something I don't think she would have taken very well,considering how much it seemed she enjoyed being in the spotlight,esp. as a former Ms. WV.And I also think that's why PR wrote the note and made the 911 call-JR was distancing himself from the whole situation b/c he's the guilty one.

(From the way the RN sounds,JR could have dictated part of it to her).

JR also didn't accompany JB's body to the morgue,which I think he would have done if he hadn't been involved somehow.I think a lot of people have pointed out that JR certainly hasn't acted like the grieving father that he was when his oldest daughter died.I think guilt prevented him from making the trip to the morgue with her.

And one more thing makes me think he's the guilty one...HE took a shower at some point ,and PR did not;she even had on the same clothes from the prior evening.I think JR had good reason to get clean that morning.JAT.

I'm just wondering, what end of the flashlight? The handle? The side with the light on it? Was the bulb still working? 'Cause I think if you bash a flashlight on the floor, the filament in the bulb will break.

Years ago, I got mugged, and the guy hit me over the head with a brick. It's kind of a joke with my friends, because the next morning, we found the brick in the lobby, broken in half! (It was actually more of a thick tile.) Obviously an adult's skull is a lot thicker than a kid's. It bled like crazy, though. Didn't hurt --just kind of stunned.

T-Rex said:

I'm just wondering, what end of the flashlight? The handle? The side with the light on it? Was the bulb still working? 'Cause I think if you bash a flashlight on the floor, the filament in the bulb will break.

Years ago, I got mugged, and the guy hit me over the head with a brick. It's kind of a joke with my friends, because the next morning, we found the brick in the lobby, broken in half! (It was actually more of a thick tile.) Obviously an adult's skull is a lot thicker than a kid's. It bled like crazy, though. Didn't hurt --just kind of stunned.

Click to expand...

They said it was a maglite.Those are not normal lightweight flashlights.They're very heavy,they're the heavy duty ones that mechanics and professionals use.They don't break easily.(if at all, really).I bet JR had one b/c he had an airplane.Those types of heavy duty flashlights are needed for inspection,repair, etc. on airplanes.
To answer your question,I think from the indentation on JB's skull,it would have had to have been the part with the light on the end(that made the square indentation).The rest could have been from the handle,as the crack on her head was a long one, and some of those lights,if not most of them, have a very long handle on them.