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  1. #1
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    Blue Fibers

    SuperDave:

    Here is the post from Rashomon regarding the blue fibers.

    But I'll give A&E the benefit of the doubt and try again, for all I want to find out is the original source which says that fibers from John's black shirt he wore to the Whites' Christmas party were found in very incriminating locations: in JB's underpants, and maybe even in her genital area itself.
    8-29-00 John Ramsey videotaped interview, Source: http://www.acandyrose.com/atl2000-interviews-john-ramsey.txt


    7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I've got some
    8 questions, Mr. Ramsey, that deal with fiber
    9 evidence, and this is probably going to be
    10 questions that your lawyer is going to advise
    11 you not to answer, but I would like to pose
    12 them to you.
    ...
    21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
    22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
    23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
    24 source is the collared black shirt that you
    25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
    0058
    1 underpants, and I wondered if you --

    2 A. ********. I don't believe that.
    3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
    4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
    5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
    6 disgrace --
    7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
    8 think you are. That's disgusting.

    I suppose that in line 23 this was a typo, and it should read 'fibers' and not 'hairs', for the question was about fiber evidence.



    From the Bonita papers (emphasis mine):

    "During the vaginal examination, small dark colored fibers were found on JonBenet's external labia. A faint area of purple discoloration was noted on the right labia major. Vascular congestion was found along the inner membrane of the vaginal vault, and red water fluid, appearing to be blood, was present. The hymeneal opening had a mild abrasion, and the hymen appeared to have been torn. Dr. Meyer noted that the trauma to JonBenet's vaginal area was consistent with digital, rather than penile penetration. He was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area. Dr. Meyer stated that it appeared that JonBenet's pubic area may have been cleaned, or at least wiped by someone using a towel or piece of clothing. Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area."

    Are those 'small dark colored fibers' the same as the 'dark blue fibers' consistent with a cotton towel?
    If yes, where does John Ramsey's black shirt come in, the fibers of which were allegedly found in JB's genital area too?

    --
    Edited by rashomon at 09/20/2006 12:47 PM

  2. #2
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    I also wonder about the alleged blue robe of JR's that was found.Could some of the fibers be from that as well?I can't find anything on it rightoffhand,I just remember reading about it somewhere (I think on this forum) in the past.
    I ask because,in DOI,both PR and JR make a point of saying that JR was in his underwear.(Perhaps to point out that he hadn't been wearing a robe that might have been found and used to wipe JB down with).I was wondering if it could have been a terrycloth robe,which might make it harder to determine if it was actually from robe or a towel.I've seen robes and towels,both made of the same material and same color, sold together as sets and I was j/w if that might have been the case there.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778
    I also wonder about the alleged blue robe of JR's that was found.Could some of the fibers be from that as well?I can't find anything on it rightoffhand,I just remember reading about it somewhere (I think on this forum) in the past.
    I ask because,in DOI,both PR and JR make a point of saying that JR was in his underwear.(Perhaps to point out that he hadn't been wearing a robe that might have been found and used to wipe JB down with).I was wondering if it could have been a terrycloth robe,which might make it harder to determine if it was actually from robe or a towel.I've seen robes and towels,both made of the same material and same color, sold together as sets and I was j/w if that might have been the case there.
    I think UKGuy said it was found in the den and I seem to remember reading the robe was found on the floor in the den.

  4. #4
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    I wonder if JR was distancing himself from the shirt he wore the prior night instead.

  5. #5
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    Shirt Wasn't Cotton

    I believe the black shirt was wool, not cotton, right?

    Location of the bathrobe on the floor of the den is unusual, though. It may have been left on a chair, obviously. Somehow, I don't know exactly why, this reminds me of the ignored duffle bag found in the crawl space.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle1
    I believe the black shirt was wool, not cotton, right?

    Location of the bathrobe on the floor of the den is unusual, though. It may have been left on a chair, obviously. Somehow, I don't know exactly why, this reminds me of the ignored duffle bag found in the crawl space.
    JR said that he couldn't remember which shirt he wore that night so he sent the BPD 2 black shirts. I remember reading somewhere that JR's robe was a dark blue terrycloth.

  7. #7
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    Could this explain...

    why there are no pictures from Christmas Day? We can't see what the R's are wearing....

    ETA:

    2 A. Well, I think that's what we did,
    3 but I don't, I mean, I don't remember
    4 exactly the logic. I know that we were
    5 asked about shoes, and the picture didn't
    6 even show shoes, so I couldn't remember what
    7 shoes we had on. So was it to send all my
    8 shoes or one hundred percent sure.

    What picture would that be?

  8. #8
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    Det. Thomas spoke of looking at pictures from the White's party in his book (which have never been made public.) Maybe that's it?
    Where is Trenton Duckett?

  9. #9
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    In the 1st post on this thread, near the bottom, in the quote from the Bonita papers, it says that "Dr. Meyer was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area."

    ??? Hasn't it been said numerous times that ther WAS evidence of prior sexual abuse?

    There's so much info in this case that seems in direct opposition of itself. Can someone clarify?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by julianne
    In the 1st post on this thread, near the bottom, in the quote from the Bonita papers, it says that "Dr. Meyer was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area."

    ??? Hasn't it been said numerous times that ther WAS evidence of prior sexual abuse?

    There's so much info in this case that seems in direct opposition of itself. Can someone clarify?
    Julianne,

    Dr. Meyer performed the autopsy; he did not state in the autopsy that there was prior sexual abuse (and anyone else feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong), but I believed HE FELT there was and said so to Det. Arndt.

    Other forensics who have studied the autopsy report, such as Dr. Cyril Wecht, believe from studying it that there was prior sexual abuse. Actually, he explains it and refers the reader to the report and then explains why he feels that way. And truthfully, you walk away believing him.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    Det. Thomas spoke of looking at pictures from the White's party in his book (which have never been made public.) Maybe that's it?

    Thanks, Nuisanceposter. This case has too many parts for a casual reader to keep up with.

  12. #12
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    Much appreciated, Solace!

    In the 1st post on this thread, near the bottom, in the quote from the Bonita papers, it says that "Dr. Meyer was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area."

    ??? Hasn't it been said numerous times that ther WAS evidence of prior sexual abuse?

    There's so much info in this case that seems in direct opposition of itself. Can someone clarify?
    To wit:

    Dr. Meyer performed the autopsy; he did not state in the autopsy that there was prior sexual abuse (and anyone else feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong), but I believed HE FELT there was and said so to Det. Arndt.
    Yeah, he just wasn't willing to say so in the public document. But Drs. McCann, Rau, Monteleone, Jones and Wright were willing to stipulate to it, julianne. That's not nothing, to quote Wendy Murphy on that very subject.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave
    Much appreciated, Solace!

    To wit:

    Yeah, he just wasn't willing to say so in the public document. But Drs. McCann, Rau, Monteleone, Jones and Wright were willing to stipulate to it, julianne. That's not nothing, to quote Wendy Murphy on that very subject.
    So, this leads me to believe that John was abusing her. Unless, she was using a douche on JB, is that possible? Here I go again.

    I think it was sexual abuse and John is involved.

    You know there is more evidence here than there was with Scott Peterson. I am reading the transcript re the fibers and if ever there was someone with an attitude it is John. And I realize that some would say, well Levin is saying that the fibers match his shirt, but he has an overall attitude of bs. Anywhere he can bs, he does. He in no way, no way, sounds like a man who is distraught over his daughter and wants to find the killer.

    I saw Marc Klass the other day and he is JUST NOW starting to look "regular" whatever that is. Before he looked out of his mind with grief. His eyes would dart all over the place, he was in bad shape.

    Mr. Ramsey has never looked like that, never.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace
    Julianne,

    Dr. Meyer performed the autopsy; he did not state in the autopsy that there was prior sexual abuse (and anyone else feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong), but I believed HE FELT there was and said so to Det. Arndt.

    Other forensics who have studied the autopsy report, such as Dr. Cyril Wecht, believe from studying it that there was prior sexual abuse. Actually, he explains it and refers the reader to the report and then explains why he feels that way. And truthfully, you walk away believing him.

    Solace,

    He never stated there was prior abuse. His words to Detective Linda Arndt were JonBenet "had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina"

    or from the January 30th, 1997 Search Warrant
    Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina.
    Also
    Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.
    Coroner Meyer's Autopsy states:
    Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.
    Coroner Meyer offered no opinion as to chronic sexual contact, he knew what he was doing, also its possible some of the detail was meant to to be redacted permanently?

    But the devil is in the detail, since Coroner Meyer listed the birefringent foreign material and verbally opined to Detective Linda Arndt that what he was looking at was consistent with digital penetration then its safe to assume he was not contradicting himself, that is, penetration via the paintbrush handle is not the same as digital penetration? I doubt he could deduce at this point that the birefringent foreign material had arrived via accidental transfer?

    Along with other information such as the unnatural 1-cm by 1-cm enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, and the chronic inflammation of the vaginal tract, Coroner Meyer probably assumed he was looking at a victim with a history of prolonged sexual contact?

    A reading of the January 30, 1997 Search Warrant makes it explicit that the BPD assumed they had an incest case on their hands and they were looking for child pornography to back this up.

    They were convinced about this, so much so, they have also have twice searched the Ramseys' summer home in Charlevoix, Michigan. The documents associated with those searches have been sealed indefinitely.

    Also in other interview transcripts references are made to photographs taken of JonBenet down in the basement or a collection of photographs found in the basement. Its likely someone had a personal collection of JonBenet photographs, this may have included provocative pageant snaps etc.

    So pedophilia and incest were high on the agenda at this point in time!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    Solace,

    He never stated there was prior abuse. His words to Detective Linda Arndt were JonBenet "had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina"

    or from the January 30th, 1997 Search Warrant


    Also


    Coroner Meyer's Autopsy states:


    Coroner Meyer offered no opinion as to chronic sexual contact, he knew what he was doing, also its possible some of the detail was meant to to be redacted permanently?

    But the devil is in the detail, since Coroner Meyer listed the birefringent foreign material and verbally opined to Detective Linda Arndt that what he was looking at was consistent with digital penetration then its safe to assume he was not contradicting himself, that is, penetration via the paintbrush handle is not the same as digital penetration? I doubt he could deduce at this point that the birefringent foreign material had arrived via accidental transfer?

    Along with other information such as the unnatural 1-cm by 1-cm enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, and the chronic inflammation of the vaginal tract, Coroner Meyer probably assumed he was looking at a victim with a history of prolonged sexual contact?

    A reading of the January 30, 1997 Search Warrant makes it explicit that the BPD assumed they had an incest case on their hands and they were looking for child pornography to back this up.

    They were convinced about this, so much so, they have also have twice searched the Ramseys' summer home in Charlevoix, Michigan. The documents associated with those searches have been sealed indefinitely.

    Also in other interview transcripts references are made to photographs taken of JonBenet down in the basement or a collection of photographs found in the basement. Its likely someone had a personal collection of JonBenet photographs, this may have included provocative pageant snaps etc.

    So pedophilia and incest were high on the agenda at this point in time!
    UK,

    I know in the transacripts they ask Patsy if photos were ever taken of JonBenet in the basement, and she says "no, did you find some". But they never really go into it anymore. Do you know more about that?

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