jonbenet's headstone

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ellen13

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i'm sure this has been brought up before, but why did they put jbr died on the 25th? why would they want to think of their daughter dead on christmas? i think she either really did die on the 25th and patsy wanted to be truthful on the headstone to do the poor thing some justice, or she did it for sympathy to say jonbenet died on xmas.
what do you all think?
ellen
 
ellen13 said:
i'm sure this has been brought up before, but why did they put jbr died on the 25th? why would they want to think of their daughter dead on christmas? i think she either really did die on the 25th and patsy wanted to be truthful on the headstone to do the poor thing some justice, or she did it for sympathy to say jonbenet died on xmas.
what do you all think?
ellen
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I find it quite an odd thing Ellen13. The time of death is uncertain but according to almost any intruder-did-it theory the t.o.d would have had to have been post-midnight, i.e. early hours of the 26th. I ran into this problem when analysing the ransom note. The ransom note mentions "tomorrow" by which is meant the 26th.

But again, in almost any IDI scenario, the ransom note should have been written in the early hours of the 26th, not late 25th.

For the victim to have been killed by an intruder on the 25th we would need to believe that the intruder acted more or less immediately after the Ramseys went to bed and had only just gone to sleep. At best estimates they were all safely in bed sleeping (according to John and Patsy's account) by 11pm ish. Why do the Ramseys suppose Jonbenet was killed on the 25th in the short window of opportunity before midnight and not later that night, i.e. early the 26th?

Moreover, the girl was *found* on the 26th. Surely the 26th was the day of her death to her parents? The day of calamity for their family.

I have been trying to establish a clearer estimate of t.o.d. and several things suggest it was pre-midnight on the 25th. The neighbours reports of lights suggest that the cover-up was underway by around 12:30ish to 1 am.

It is odd, as I say. But the gravestone may be merely a sentimental back-dating to Christmas day. For the ramseys, as christians, there was perhaps some merit to Jonbenet dying on Christmas Day. A death/birth symbolism thing. So I don't regard it as an incriminating fact, but - when considered with the ransom note's reference to "tomorrow" - it is still odd.
 
ellen13 said:
i'm sure this has been brought up before, but why did they put jbr died on the 25th? why would they want to think of their daughter dead on christmas? i think she either really did die on the 25th and patsy wanted to be truthful on the headstone to do the poor thing some justice, or she did it for sympathy to say jonbenet died on xmas.
what do you all think?
ellen
Click to expand...

Further thoughts Ellen13. I am inclined to place the time of death on the 25th, even as early as 10:30. The evidence points to an earlier time rather than later. The digestion of the pineapple. Reports of lights on (and off) from the neighbours. And, most importantly, the significant *mistake* in the ransom note that speaks of calling the Ramsey's "tomorrow". It is an important mistake.

The main point of evidence that has inclined people to a later t.o.d has been the report of a scream at around 2am (according to one version). Having gone through the reports given by the neighbours I regard the report of the scream quite unreliable. The reports of the lights are much more reliable. And those reports suggest that a cover-up was in progress by 12:30 to 1 am. The SE corner light was off - for the first time in years. This is the basement corner. Given that the body was placed in the basement this report of the light being off suggests that the body was being moved to the basement around 12:30 to 1am. So she died earlier than that.

Moreover, when she was found the processes of decay were apparently advanced. The autoposy evidence makes this clear (although it is not as clear as one would like) and Linda Arndt who was there when the body was found reported the smell of death on the body. All that suggests earlier rather than later.

So, imo, there is every chance the death did occur on the 25th. It is therefore "odd" that the Ramseys - who plead having no knowledge of the death - count the child as deceased on the 25th and not the 26th which would be in greater accord with their own theories about the death.
 
Plenum7 said:
Further thoughts Ellen13. I am inclined to place the time of death on the 25th, even as early as 10:30. The evidence points to an earlier time rather than later. The digestion of the pineapple. Reports of lights on (and off) from the neighbours. And, most importantly, the significant *mistake* in the ransom note that speaks of calling the Ramsey's "tomorrow". It is an important mistake.

The main point of evidence that has inclined people to a later t.o.d has been the report of a scream at around 2am (according to one version). Having gone through the reports given by the neighbours I regard the report of the scream quite unreliable. The reports of the lights are much more reliable. And those reports suggest that a cover-up was in progress by 12:30 to 1 am. The SE corner light was off - for the first time in years. This is the basement corner. Given that the body was placed in the basement this report of the light being off suggests that the body was being moved to the basement around 12:30 to 1am. So she died earlier than that.

Moreover, when she was found the processes of decay were apparently advanced. The autoposy evidence makes this clear (although it is not as clear as one would like) and Linda Arndt who was there when the body was found reported the smell of death on the body. All that suggests earlier rather than later.

So, imo, there is every chance the death did occur on the 25th. It is therefore "odd" that the Ramseys - who plead having no knowledge of the death - count the child as deceased on the 25th and not the 26th which would be in greater accord with their own theories about the death.
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plenum,
thanks for your excellent insights! wow!
 
I personally think it was just for added drama and it works. My husband and I visited JonBenet's grave in July of this year just a few weeks after Patsy's funeral. My husband does not follow this case at all but was kind enough to help me find the place. He stayed in the car in that little circle but had the window down. When I walked back up he said, "Ahhhhh, she died Christmas Day?" Yes, I know it's hard to believe he didn't know that but he didn't. Anyway,you get my point.

I saw Patsy's grave too. It is almost directly in front of JonBenet's when you drive up. It was just fresh dirt at the time and had a single rose on the top. I took a picture and sent it to Tricia to post if she wants to. I hope they don't put a huge headstone on Patsy's right in front of JonBenet's...but I'm sure they will.

Probably five other cars drove up the day we were there but they wouldn't pull all the way to the circle or get out while we were there.
 
ellen13 said:
i'm sure this has been brought up before, but why did they put jbr died on the 25th? why would they want to think of their daughter dead on christmas? i think she either really did die on the 25th and patsy wanted to be truthful on the headstone to do the poor thing some justice, or she did it for sympathy to say jonbenet died on xmas.
what do you all think?
ellen
Click to expand...

I think this is the work of Patsy. More drama, even on the headstone. I think the 25th on the headstone would generate more sympathy for the parents, them being Christian and all.
 
Great minds think alike, Brefie. We posted almost the same thing at the same time!
 
JR said, "we wanted the world to know what they did to our daughter on Christmas" (paraphrased). It was his idea IMO. John was the controlling person in that family and it shows in his leaping in to answer questions made to Patsy, where they would live, etc.

BTW Plenum7 great observations, but did they ever establish that the note actually meant the 26th? I thought there was some discrepancy about that since (supposedly) nobody knew exactly when the "kidnapping" took place. Even the cops weren't sure if it meant the 26th or 27th...
 
Ivy2 said:
Great minds think alike, Brefie. We posted almost the same thing at the same time!
Click to expand...

LOL! I saw that!

I wonder what else we agree on....going to read some of your posts!!
 
It's because they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt as to when JBR did die, IMO.
 
I believe you can take their word for it.

If anybody on earth knows when JonBenet died it's
John and Patsy Ramsey!!
 
Interesting thread, awesome posts...I didn't know about the date and never thought about the headstone.
 
I think there is a non-RDI answer to the question about the date of the 25th used on the headstone as well.

If the Ramsey's story is true, the last day Jon Benet lived through--or at least most of the way through--was the 25th; that was the last day they saw her living and breathing and smiling--tucked her, sleeping, into bed. They have no way of knowing how long she may have lived after midnight and, since they do not know what the "quality of life" for her was during that time, if she did live past midnight--or what torture, fear, etc., she may have endured for however long--they would naturally hope that perhaps she did not live long into the 26th, if at all. Since it's undetermined, it does not surprise me that parents in that situation might find it easier to think of the 25th as the last day of her life.
 
There was an episode of the tv series M**advertiser censored*S*H once. In it, a soldier was brought in on Christmas Day. One of the doctors, B.J., worked frantically at saving the guy even though there was no hope. When asked why, he said he found a photograph of the soldier's kids in his pocket and that he just wanted to keep the guy breathing until the 26th, "So his kids won't forever think of Christmas as the day their daddy died." In the end, the soldier didn't make it, so one of the other doctors turned the clock forward to 12:01 and said, "What do you know. Time of death, 12:01, December 26th."

I always thought of that, because I believe that anybody, particularly Christians, would prefer to have the date of their daughter's death officially listed as the 26th. Not only because that's when all the evidence points to as her DOD, but because they wouldn't want such a holy date corrupted - if not for religion, than at least so their other child wouldn't always associate Christmas as the day his sister died.
 
An intruder would have written the ransom note expecting it to be found when the family got up on the 26th. So "tomorrow" would have meant the 27th. The Ramsey's were making plans to leave Boulder imediately. Wouldn't they wait until the 27th just to see if the "kidnapper/killer" still called? IMO The Ramseys were up all night and wrote the note themselves. That is why the note said tomorrow. If you stay up til 2am you don't really think of it as the next day but as staying up late last night. I think they knew an intruder didn't come in and kill JB within an hour of them going to bed. To them it was one long Christmas night.
 
christine2448 said:
Interesting thread, awesome posts...I didn't know about the date and never thought about the headstone.
Click to expand...
thank you. i haven't really contributed anything to this thread that was interesting in a year, so i will take your compliment for starting itLOL!!! i hardly ever get it right or post something people are interested in.
LOL
ellen:p
 
There was an episode of the tv series M**advertiser censored*S*H once. In it, a soldier was brought in on Christmas Day. One of the doctors, B.J., worked frantically at saving the guy even though there was no hope. When asked why, he said he found a photograph of the soldier's kids in his pocket and that he just wanted to keep the guy breathing until the 26th, "So his kids won't forever think of Christmas as the day their daddy died." In the end, the soldier didn't make it, so one of the other doctors turned the clock forward to 12:01 and said, "What do you know. Time of death, 12:01, December 26th."
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with it. BJ's words were, "Christmas wreaths should be green, not black."
 
SuperDave said:
I'm familiar with it. BJ's words were, "Christmas wreaths should be green, not black."
Click to expand...
that's so beautiful and eloquent. thanks for helping me remember mash. iwas a kid when it was in and a lot of that stuff went over my head wheni watched.
 
IMO, the idea of putting Christmas on the headstone was to add to their aura of victimhood.

(There's a story I'm dying to tell!)
 
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