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  1. #1
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    Fibers found in JonBenet's Bed

    I am trying to create an accurate scenario of the events that led to JonBenet's death and came upon this website. I'm thinking that the initial stage had to have occurred in JonBenet's bed given the fact that fibers from the garrote cord were found there.

    Further, fibers consistent with those of the cord used to make the slip knots and garrote were found on JonBenet's bed. (SMF 16B; PSMF 16B.)

    A rope was found inside a brown paper sack in the guest bedroom of defendants' home, neither of which belonged to defendants. (SMF 181; PSMF 181.) Small pieces of the brown sack material were found in the "vacuuming" of JonBenet's bed and in the body bag that was used to transport her body. (SMF 181; PSMF 181. )

    http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

    My husband was abused in a foster home as a child, often sent to bed without dinner as some sort of punnishment. The parents kept him restrained to his bed at night because he would sneak down and take food from their refrigerator. Is any information out there that would suggest that JonBenet was ever "restrained" to her bed, with rope, for whatever reason? I keep thinking of Patsy's words: "We didn't mean for this to happen."









  2. #2
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    I thought we had discussed this before...was the conclusion that the rope in the paper bag was not the same as the cord that was used to tie JonBenet? If I remember right, the cord is thin and white and the rope was thicker and more yellow.

    I don't know about paper bag remnants in JonBenet's bed, but I do know that it says in PMPT that her hands were placed inside paper bags in the body bag to preserve any evidence.

    And that's awful about your husband, poor little guy. Of course he snuck down to the fridge, he was hungry with no dinner.

    I don't know of anyone ever saying that JonBenet had ever been restrained in bed by her parents, by rope or otherwise. I seriously doubt it. I've heard that JonBenet used to wake up at night and go to Burke's room for comfort, so it sounds like she could move freely.

    Restraining a child in bed...what if there was a fire?


    ETA: I just read this link - this is from the Carnes ruling, and I see several errors, such as:

    JonBenet's body was bound with complicated rope slipknots and a garrotte attached to her body. (Defs.' Br. In Supp. Of Summ. J. [67] at 19; SMF163; PSMF 163.) The slipknots and the garrote are both sophisticated bondage devices designed to give control to the user. (SMF 161, 164; PSMF 161, 164.) Evidence from these devices suggests they were made by someone with expertise using rope and cords, which cords could not be found or "sourced" within defendants' home. (SMF 169; PSMF 169.)


    We know those knots were not complicated slipknots. The knot tied on JonBenet's neck was described by Meyer as a double knot, and it was fixed in place, not a slipknot at all. That knot would never have functioned as part of bondage device meant to be used for breath control because it wasn't a slipknot, and once it was tied, it didn't give, allowing the person slack enough to catch breath before it was cinched tight again. Anyone who could tie a shoe could have tied that knot.

    There's also:

    Defendants do not own any "HI-TEC" brand shoes, and none of the shoes found in their home match the shoeprint marks. ( SMF 153; PSMF 153.)


    We know now that Burke did own a pair of Hi-Tecs.


    the wine-cellar door, there is a palmprint that does not match either of defendants' palmprints. (SMF 156; PSMF 156.) The individual to whom it belongs had not yet been identified. (SMF 156; PSMF 156.)


    The palmprint belongs to Melinda Ramsey. The other two on the door belong to Patsy Ramsey.


    A baseball bat not owned by the Ramseys found on the north side of the house has fibers consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF 185; PSMF 185.)


    Burke said that was his baseball bat.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the information about the rope/cord Nuisanceposter. I am still new to the group and don't know how much information has already been posted. I don't mean to duplicate.

    But as far as my thinking that whatever occurred in JonBenet's bed was the initial stage of the events that led to her death, since fibers from the garrote cord were found there, do you agree? She had to have been tied up there and then moved to the basement.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    Thanks for the information about the rope/cord Nuisanceposter. I am still new to the group and don't know how much information has already been posted. I don't mean to duplicate.

    But as far as my thinking that whatever occurred in JonBenet's bed was the initial stage of the events that led to her death, since fibers from the garrote cord were found there, do you agree? She had to have been tied up there and then moved to the basement.
    calicocat,
    If you review the crime-scene evidence it suggests that the garrote was fashioned just outside the wine-cellar, why, is an interesting question.

    The ligature may have been in place prior to her being placed in the wine-cellar, but she was not restrained by the cord.

    JonBenet may never have reached her bed, she may have been killed while still partially clothed in the same clothes she went to the White's in.


    .

  5. #5
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    Further, fibers consistent with those of the cord used to make the slip knots and garrote were found on JonBenet's bed. (SMF 16B; PSMF 16B.)

    UKGuy,
    Wouldn't she have to have been in the bed, tied up, in order for the fibers to be there?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    Further, fibers consistent with those of the cord used to make the slip knots and garrote were found on JonBenet's bed. (SMF 16B; PSMF 16B.)

    UKGuy,
    Wouldn't she have to have been in the bed, tied up, in order for the fibers to be there?
    calicocat,
    Possibly but the fibers can be there independently of her being either tied up, or being on the bed.

    Bear in mind that the garrote was constructed downstairs in the basement, now she may have been asphyxiated on her bed using the ligature but that is speculation on my part.


    .

  7. #7
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    There's nothing wrong with someone newer coming and asking questions that were talked about before they got to the convo, calicocat. You go ahead and ask anything you want to.

    Raising questions about things already discussed could lead to someone with a fresh view and/or different insight noticing something that had been previously overlooked.

    I think most people here at WS are more than willing to rehash the evidence when asked to help someone newer catch up, or even in case we may learn something new ourselves.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    calicocat,
    Possibly but the fibers can be there independently of her being either tied up, or being on the bed.

    Bear in mind that the garrote was constructed downstairs in the basement, now she may have been asphyxiated on her bed using the ligature but that is speculation on my part.


    .
    Exactly. No one really knows what happened that night, where or when or even who did what.

    Perhaps the Rs originally thought to make it look like JonBenet had been attacked in her bed, then changed the plan and moved her to the basement. That would be my guess.

  9. #9
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    Callico, I Think You're Right

    Quote Originally Posted by calicocat
    Further, fibers consistent with those of the cord used to make the slip knots and garrote were found on JonBenet's bed. (SMF 16B; PSMF 16B.)

    UKGuy,
    Wouldn't she have to have been in the bed, tied up, in order for the fibers to be there?
    We're glad you've joined us, and I think you're right that, unless fibers were deliberately planted in various places just to confuse crime solvers, the whole thing very well may have started upstairs. Although UK's right that the garrotte itself wasn't constructed until just outside the wine cellar door.

    Another thing, the word BEHEADED in the RN, I think shows none of the family wrote it, because who among us would even think of that word?

    So I did a web search about Adam Walsh, the shy little 6-yr old who was beheaded in Fla., for which one of the Lucas and Toole team took credit, who'd evidently been in a "training camp" near Atlanta that Bin Laden attended, which some of these search results I haven't delved into yet seemed to say was a Satanist camp. (So Muslim beheading only started fairly recently, isn't part of their normal religion?) People were ridiculing the Walshes, saying John Walsh profited from Adam's death by becoming a "star". Nice people! A lot of crimes have been solved due to his starting America's Most Wanted. Obviously he's hoping to also find out more about what happened to his child. Some of us may have been crime victims in some ways, reason we're so interested in this case.

    If it was someone who knew beheading people, that sure puts the fibers into perspective because these days everything, even DNA, can be planted. And explains the officials' unprecedented (?) amount of bungling.

  10. #10
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    Serial killers behead their victims a lot, Eagle1. I've read a lot of books about serial killers who make beheading part of their routine, sometimes for ease of disposal of the corpse, sometimes to make it harder to identify the corpse, sometimes just for the enjoyment they get from it.

    Here's a modest list of a few people who have beheaded victims - Richard Ramirez, Cary Stayner, Gerard Schaefer Jr, Jeffrey Dahmer, even quiet little Ed Gein took a head off. Ed Kemper went to the extent of killing his mother, cutting her head off, and putting her vocal cords in the garbage disposal before raping her headless body.

    I forgot his name, but one guy I read about not only killed his wife and cut her head off, he sat there with pliers and removed her teeth so it would be harder to identify her. Obviously it didn't work that well for him.

    Lacy Peterson's body was found without a head...I didn't follow SP's case, did he behead her?

    Beheading isn't as far out as it sounds to someone who has read some true crime books and knows that killers do it often. The Ramseys had a fair amount of crime books in their library.


  11. #11
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    I thought we had discussed this before...was the conclusion that the rope in the paper bag was not the same as the cord that was used to tie JonBenet? If I remember right, the cord is thin and white and the rope was thicker and more yellow.

    I don't know about paper bag remnants in JonBenet's bed, but I do know that it says in PMPT that her hands were placed inside paper bags in the body bag to preserve any evidence.

    And that's awful about your husband, poor little guy. Of course he snuck down to the fridge, he was hungry with no dinner.

    I don't know of anyone ever saying that JonBenet had ever been restrained in bed by her parents, by rope or otherwise. I seriously doubt it. I've heard that JonBenet used to wake up at night and go to Burke's room for comfort, so it sounds like she could move freely.

    Restraining a child in bed...what if there was a fire?


    ETA: I just read this link - this is from the Carnes ruling, and I see several errors, such as:

    JonBenet's body was bound with complicated rope slipknots and a garrotte attached to her body. (Defs.' Br. In Supp. Of Summ. J. [67] at 19; SMF163; PSMF 163.) The slipknots and the garrote are both sophisticated bondage devices designed to give control to the user. (SMF 161, 164; PSMF 161, 164.) Evidence from these devices suggests they were made by someone with expertise using rope and cords, which cords could not be found or "sourced" within defendants' home. (SMF 169; PSMF 169.)


    We know those knots were not complicated slipknots. The knot tied on JonBenet's neck was described by Meyer as a double knot, and it was fixed in place, not a slipknot at all. That knot would never have functioned as part of bondage device meant to be used for breath control because it wasn't a slipknot, and once it was tied, it didn't give, allowing the person slack enough to catch breath before it was cinched tight again. Anyone who could tie a shoe could have tied that knot.

    There's also:

    Defendants do not own any "HI-TEC" brand shoes, and none of the shoes found in their home match the shoeprint marks. ( SMF 153; PSMF 153.)


    We know now that Burke did own a pair of Hi-Tecs.


    the wine-cellar door, there is a palmprint that does not match either of defendants' palmprints. (SMF 156; PSMF 156.) The individual to whom it belongs had not yet been identified. (SMF 156; PSMF 156.)


    The palmprint belongs to Melinda Ramsey. The other two on the door belong to Patsy Ramsey.


    A baseball bat not owned by the Ramseys found on the north side of the house has fibers consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF 185; PSMF 185.)


    Burke said that was his baseball bat.
    Don't you just love Nuisanceposter. I love reading your posts NP.

  12. #12
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    Thank you! Right back atcha! MWA!!!

  13. #13
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    Some New Points in Your Opinion That Still Don't Negate Mine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    I've read a lot of books about serial killers who make beheading part of their routine, sometimes for ease of disposal of the corpse, sometimes to make it harder to identify the corpse, sometimes just for the enjoyment they get from it.,,,,,,,,

    Lacy Peterson's body was found without a head...I didn't follow SP's case, did he behead her?........(ans. Possibly!)

    Beheading isn't as far out as it sounds to someone who has read some true crime books and knows that killers do it often. The Ramseys had a fair amount of crime books in their library.
    While you're making some good points as far as they go, about what you've alrady read, there are still all these web search items I bet you haven't read! And, like myself, will not read much of. Too scary.

    I posted a couple of links in "Is the Killer Still Alive?" which I'll bet is being avoided like opening the wine cellar door was avoided, with pretty flimsy excuses.

    In one of your examples which I forgot to quote, pulling teeth of the victim to avoid identification, "it didn't do him any good", or words to that effect.

    Exactly my point. Police are not normally afraid to investigate such things and there isn't all this "bungling". You have to have been there, read the search results about the 7 wk "training camp" near Atlanta that some say is satanist, attended by Bin Laden and Lucas and Toole and many others, maybe some of the killers you mentioned, to even begin to understand what I mean.

    I can understand people not wanting to know too much of such scary things, didn't read much in those results myself, but enough to know there's a lot more to this than meets the eye. We all skipped over that word BEHEADED without even thinking about it and go over and over the fibers stuff instead. Maybe part of the "training" was obtaining and planting consistent-with fibers all over the place. Even DNA can be planted these days. Piece of cake.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    Exactly. No one really knows what happened that night, where or when or even who did what.

    Perhaps the Rs originally thought to make it look like JonBenet had been attacked in her bed, then changed the plan and moved her to the basement. That would be my guess.
    Nuisanceposter,

    No one really knows what happened that night, where or when or even who did what.
    The forensic evidence suggests Patsy was involved in the staging in the wine-cellar.

    It is also inconsistent with some specific theories e.g. Intruder and Toilet Rage, in particular.

    You can place JonBenet in certain locations in the house simply because she did not arrive back from the White's and go down to the basement.

    We know she consumed some pineapple, so we know she was awake at a certain point.

    Perhaps the Rs originally thought to make it look like JonBenet had been attacked in her bed, then changed the plan and moved her to the basement. That would be my guess.
    Well she was moved from somewhere, and its likely there was a staging prior to the wine-cellar since the sexual-assault is masked and she is wiped down, and made to appear the victim of a bedside abduction, rather than a Bedside Attack.


    There will be other things that the BPD will know, since they will have access to unreleased forensic evidence.



    .

  15. #15
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    Perhaps the Rs originally thought to make it look like JonBenet had been attacked in her bed, then changed the plan and moved her to the basement. That would be my guess.
    That makes sense, especially since the wrist ties wouldn't have restrained a baby.

    Another thing, the word BEHEADED in the RN, I think shows none of the family wrote it, because who among us would even think of that word?
    I would, to start with. Remember, the ransom note, among other things, contains elements of Islamic terror, and even before 9/11, it was common knowledge that beheading is common in that part of the world. IMO, the beheading bit was part of that idea.

    (So Muslim beheading only started fairly recently, isn't part of their normal religion?)
    No way! They've been doing that for centuries.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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